E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

[43066]

What strange contradictory logic some TOCs employ.

"You can't take an e-scooter on our trains because there's a risk of its battery catching fire."
"All our trains have USB sockets so you can charge your phone or laptop battery while you travel"

To be fair the difference in approach isn’t remotely contradictory and has been well explained in this (and other) threads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What strange contradictory logic some TOCs employ.

"You can't take an e-scooter on our trains because there's a risk of its battery catching fire."
"All our trains have USB sockets so you can charge your phone or laptop battery while you travel"

Like with planes, you can't ban phones and laptops, because that means people (business travellers in particular) won't use your service. I'm sure airlines would ban them if they could because they do pose a nonzero risk. Plus you can pick them up and chuck them out of the window or otherwise make them safe.

 

[SargeNpton]

What strange contradictory logic some TOCs employ.

"You can't take an e-scooter on our trains because there's a risk of its battery catching fire."
"All our trains have USB sockets so you can charge your phone or laptop battery while you travel"

As has been pointed out before, the e-scooters, etc, that are being banned are currently illegal for use on the public highway and so their batteries and electrical systems have not been tested to see if they meet the UK's safety standards.

Their batteries are then more likely to be sub-standard, with a greater risk of bursting into flames. This is not hypothetical, as various instances of this can be found in a quick search of the internet.

 

[Aviator88]

I haven't seen any phones or laptops causing something like this.

I have -

4 injured after laptop battery catches fire on United flight, forcing emergency landing in San Diego

As has been pointed out before, the e-scooters, etc, that are being banned are currently illegal for use on the public highway and so their batteries and electrical systems have not been tested to see if they meet the UK's safety standards.

Their batteries are then more likely to be sub-standard, with a greater risk of bursting into flames. This is not hypothetical, as various instances of this can be found in a quick search of the internet.

Being illegal on the public highway and meeting UK (European) electrical safety standards are not intrinsically linked.

You can build a 1 kW electric bike using parts (including uncertified battery) bought from China and happily load it onto a train in the UK, whilst being fully compliant with their policy.

 

[43066]

I have -

4 injured after laptop battery catches fire on United flight, forcing emergency landing in San Diego

But laptop batteries are smaller than those of e scooters and, crucially, legal to buy and use in more situations, so are much more likely to have been subjected to stringent quality testing. That doesn’t mean there’s zero risk of them combusting, but it’s a lower and better understood risk.

You can build a 1 kW electric bike using parts (including uncertified battery) bought from China and happily load it onto a train in the UK, whilst being fully compliant with their policy.

But the risk of people doing that is lower, given the more mature market. You can buy a good quality e bike and use it perfectly legally in the UK.

 

[najaB]

I have -

4 injured after laptop battery catches fire on United flight, forcing emergency landing in San Diego

Note the sub-head in the article you linked:

Officials said the flight crew prevented the fire from spreading by placing the battery into a thermal containment bag.

A lot easier to do with a laptop battery with a capacity of, say, 5Ah than a scooter battery that might be 20Ah plus.

 

[Aviator88]

But laptop batteries are smaller than those of e scooters and, crucially, legal to buy and use in more situations, so are much more likely to have been subjected to stringent quality testing. That doesn’t mean there’s zero risk of them combusting, but it’s a lower and better understood risk.



But the risk of that happening is lower given the more mature market.

I can't disagree with any of that. My point is that it shows a 'weakness' in the policy - regulate the battery, not the contraption to which it's affixed.

Edited to add - I appreciate this makes it more difficult for crew to enforce. Perhaps, as the market continues to grow, some form of safe 'QR code' system would be beneficial.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It would be interesting to see comparative statistics for self-combustion incidents on the railway involving

1. e-scooters
2. Class 180s

This is such a strawman argument. Firstly, 180 fires are contained outside the carriage, whereas an e-scooter fire would be inside, where all the people are. Secondly, a lithium fire isn't comparable to a Coradia thermal incident, as you can't tell it's going to happen apart from the battery going pillowy. Then it's pretty much an instantaneous explosive release of chemicals, toxic gases and smoke. You don't want that in a packed (or any) train carriage; the passengers will either die of smoke inhalation or be killed in a crush ala British Airtours flight 28M.

 

[Aviator88]

Note the sub-head in the article you linked:

A lot easier to do with a laptop battery with a capacity of, say, 5Ah than a scooter battery that might be 20Ah plus.

Again, agreed. Post was only in response to an earlier comment claiming they'd never seen a laptop battery causing an emergency/intense fire risk etc.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

they'd never seen a laptop battery causing an emergency/intense fire risk etc.

I was referring to filling an entire train carriage with deep smoke in under a minute. A small battery, as you have been told, is much less likely to have as great an effect and is much easier to deal with. It is obtuse to say that highly regulated phones and laptops are equivalent to escooters.

 

[43066]

I can't disagree with any of that. My point is that it shows a 'weakness' in the policy - regulate the battery, not the contraption to which it's affixed.

You then run into issues of practical enforcement by non expert staff, and uncertainty for the public over what will or won’t be allowed. As things stand all e scooters are in a legal grey area, and many are not subject to quality control, hence the approach of outlawing all of them. That’s a clear message people can understand.

E bikes are a mature market, and the vast majority will be compliant with various standards, hence not banning any of them. The fact that there will be exceptions in either category doesn’t change the logic of the overall approach.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

This is such a strawman argument. Firstly, 180 fires are contained outside the carriage, whereas an e-scooter fire would be inside, where all the people are. Secondly, a lithium fire isn't comparable to a Coradia thermal incident, as you can't tell it's going to happen apart from the battery going pillowy. Then it's pretty much an instantaneous explosive release of chemicals, toxic gases and smoke. You don't want that in a packed (or any) train carriage; the passengers will either die of smoke inhalation or be killed in a crush ala British Airtours flight 28M.

It's not a "strawman argument" or any "argument" at all ffs, it's a light-hearted post. If it were an "argument", it would attempt to argue something.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can build a 1 kW electric bike using parts (including uncertified battery) bought from China and happily load it onto a train in the UK, whilst being fully compliant with their policy.

If you did that what you'd have would be an illegal electric motorcycle, not an e-bike.

 

[Aviator88]

I was referring to filling an entire train carriage with deep smoke in under a minute. A small battery, as you have been told, is much less likely to have as great an effect and is much easier to deal with. It is obtuse to say that highly regulated phones and laptops are equivalent to escooters.

Just for you - one with more smoke!

Rule number 1 for battery fires - thermal runaway is unpredictable and doesn't care how many cells you have.

If you did that what you'd have would be an illegal electric motorcycle, not an e-bike.

Granted, let's call it 250 W then, and the point remains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just for you - one with more smoke!

Rule number 1 for battery fires - thermal runaway is unpredictable and doesn't care how many cells you have.

It does, because the more cells you have the more energy can be released. Thus the worst-case is worse than that with a smaller battery.

 

[Aviator88]

It does, because the more cells you have the more energy can be released. Thus the worst-case is worse than that with a smaller battery.

Worst-case isn't always-case - you can definitely have a more violent reaction from a lower capacity battery depending on cell design/insulation etc.

 

[43066]

Worst-case isn't always-case - you can definitely have a more violent reaction from a lower capacity battery depending on cell design/insulation etc.

So what point are you making? Are you saying you think all electronic devices should be banned from all forms of transport?

 

[Aviator88]

So what point are you making? Are you saying you think all electronic devices should be banned from all forms of transport?

Point is twofold - the issue isn't black and white, and the policies can be improved.

I did edit a comment further back after you'd already replied, addressing policing it. Now the electric personal transport market is maturing, why not introduce a system of ascertaining the safety of the batteries? Something that can be scanned by anybody with reasonable grounds to do so?

 

[43066]

Point is twofold - the issue isn't black and white, and the policies can be improved.

I’ve set out the logic for the current approach in post #71. Perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of good.

 

[Aviator88]

I’ve set out the logic for the current approach in post #71. Perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of good.

We've done the 'two ships in the night' thing again - see previous post!

I agree, but in this instance I believe the two can be concurrent.

 

[43066]

We've done the 'two ships in the night' thing again - see previous post!

I agree, but in this instance I believe the two can be concurrent.

Someone with your username should be terrified of fire, above all else .

 

[Aviator88]

Someone with your username should be terrified of fire, above all else .

You'd be correct!

Genuinely, I think most people (especially on here) can agree that safety should always be priority number one.

My issue stems from the reasons given - safety. If they said it was because they're illegal on public roads, a nuisance, we don't want the litigation etc, fair enough. Despite being largely unregulated, most commercially sold E-scooters ARE stamped with the same CE mark you'll find on E-bike batteries.

I suppose the issue will only be fully resolved when private E-scooters are or aren't allowed on the public highway in the same way E-bikes are. You know, those other electrically propelled, two wheeled contraptions that are also limited to 15.5 mph!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point is twofold - the issue isn't black and white, and the policies can be improved.

I did edit a comment further back after you'd already replied, addressing policing it. Now the electric personal transport market is maturing, why not introduce a system of ascertaining the safety of the batteries? Something that can be scanned by anybody with reasonable grounds to do so?

When (and I'm pretty sure it's when) e-scooters are legalised, there will be a legal spec with UKCA approval. Those ones will likely once again be allowed on trains.

Genuinely, I think most people (especially on here) can agree that safety should always be priority number one.

Anyone who genuinely thinks that is either (a) deluded, or (b) should never travel anywhere, nor even put the kettle on at home.

Safety is an important consideration, but is not the only priority, which is why it isn't possible to ban phones and laptops from planes. Whereas banning e-scooters from trains is practical because nobody presently owns one it is legal to ride to the station or onwards to the destination (unlike e-bikes). Inconveniencing people who are breaking the law or the terms of the hire scheme is not exactly something that we should see as a problem.

 

[KJCross1983]

The TOC community has for some time been concerned about the risks posed by lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries and e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards being taken onto stations and trains by passengers and other members of the public.

There are many electronic, mobility and other devices that all contain Li-Ion batteries, ranging from mobile phones to e-bikes, mobility scooters, and laptops. However, most devices production are either well regulated (mobility scooters etc) or small (Low risk – headphones etc) The issue with e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards is their cheap availability, lack of regulation and popularity. Those that cause most concern are the cheap, grey market imported variety. (Cheaply made, unregulated and therefore a higher risk.)

There have been two notable incidents of privately owned powered transporters catching fire whilst on Transport for London (TfL) services or infrastructure and studies show that one out of every 10 million li-Ion batteries fail, a condition that almost always leads to a fire. 670 Li-Ion Battery Fires were recorded in the UK 2019-20 and Sky News (9th February 2023) reported The London Fire Brigade (LFB) were called to 88 fires caused by privately owned e-bikes last year.

Under advice from Rail Delivery Group (RDG), a network wide ban was recommended by RDG, RSSB, London Fire Brigade and endorsed by the ORR.
National Conditions of Travel were amended in December 2021 to all allow TOCs to ban e-scooters and similar devices should they wish.

As of 1st March 2023, the following TOCs have a complete ban on the carriage of e-scooters and similar devices:
Avanti, EMR, Eurostar, TfL, TfW, Trans Pennine, Caledonian Sleepers, London Northwest, LNER, Mersey Rail, Nexus, West Midlands Trains, Cross Country, Grand Central, C2C, ScotRail, GWR, Hull Trains, EMR & Lumo.

Go Ahead Group, who provide our Rail Replacement Buses currently have a nationwide ban on the carriage of e-scooters and similar devices on all their buses.

Therefore, after thorough collaborative Risk Assessment and in line with other TOCs and RDG advice, from 1st June 2023, e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards will be banned from the GTR Network.

Please find attached a detailed Safety Brief for your information and for display in notice cases in all staff areas. There is also a colleague Q&A document attached which should answer any questions and can be printed off and put in staff areas for reference.

In summary, after the 1st June, please use your training to be politely and respectfully assertive but don’t put yourself in a position of risk. Approach any customer with an e-scooter, e-unicycle, e-skateboard or hoverboard and advise them of the ban and the reasons why and inform them their item will not be permitted for carriage. Prevent escalation, avoid conflict, capture any evidence on Body Worn Video and request BTP assistance if necessary. You can also use the Zero Harm App to log any instances of non-compliance.​

 

[Aviator88]

When (and I'm pretty sure it's when) e-scooters are legalised, there will be a legal spec with UKCA approval. Those ones will likely once again be allowed on trains.



Anyone who genuinely thinks that is either (a) deluded, or (b) should never travel anywhere, nor even put the kettle on at home.

Safety is an important consideration, but is not the only priority, which is why it isn't possible to ban phones and laptops from planes. Whereas banning e-scooters from trains is practical because nobody presently owns one it is legal to ride to the station or onwards to the destination (unlike e-bikes).

I do think private e-scooters face an uphill battle regards approval - there's a lot of cash changing hands due to the likes of Voi etc!

As for the safety thing - semantics and all that.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I once scratched a MacBook battery with a screwdriver at home and it heated to somewhere around the temperature of a nuclear reactor and started smoking. As I was at home it could be dumped in the garden to think about what it had done and you wouldn't try changing a laptop battery on a train (at least one would hope, anyway!) but it does show how dangerous they potential are, especially on a mode of transport that is likely to be thrown around a lot more.

There is a conversation to be had about the legal status of e-scooters that is much wider than if they can go on trains or not.

The e-scooters/bikes/noards are not being singled out, they are being added to a updated list of banned objects or activities, would you want smoking to allowed again, or carrying a gallon of petrol in a container on the trains?

Worth remembering that smoking ban was only strictly enforced on the London Underground post Kings Cross disaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worth remembering that smoking ban was only strictly enforced on the London Underground post Kings Cross disaster.

Was it actually banned before that? It was allowed on Merseyrail until shortly after, the middle coach of each set was for smoking.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

July 1984 for trains
February 1985 for section 12 stations

 

[TPO]

Along with more publicity as to why this is so important. My guess is that the general public has some awareness that there was a problem with some phones catching fire, but most people don't realise just how dangerous lithium battery fires can be.

Indeed. Outside of communities such as the model aircraft fraternity who use high-power Lithium cells, the awareness is generally quite low. The importance of things like balanced charging and tracking performance are not always known about. I have a number of drones and use a web application which reads the data, it will produce a graph of each cell performance for each battery during a flight and so developing cell anomalities can be monitored and the battery retired before it fails.

I wouldn't be surprised if laptops and some phones do the same; restricting charge level or speed on an older battery with developing anomalies for example. My latest phone has smart charging firmware which allows rapid charging- but also tracks usage patterns so if you charge every night it won't turbo charge unless you do so outside of the usual pattern.

CS are a bit of a special case. Fire regs are tighter on sleeper trains because people are asleep so may not notice a fire developing.

However, they did climb down from a ban, they are now permitted but only if the battery has an isolator switch (which does rule out some integrated designs like VanMoofs).



I think the thing is that a phone is quite small and can be chucked out of the window or (in the case of aircraft) put in a fireproof box to burn out. An e-bike battery is much bigger.

Then you have EVs. I'd not like an integrated garage (well, I'd be happy to have one as a junk store, but not to park a car in it) because of the fire risk, though I might do if I'd fitted sprinklers. I'd definitely not park an EV in one under any circumstances, and might be nervous of a first floor flat with underground parking where there might be EVs. (These should be fire-safe, but Grenfell has highlighted lots of deficiencies in such things).

Agreed. The sleeper thing- lessons were no doubt learnt following the fire on the Cornish Riviera at Taunton in the 1970's.

Parking EVs in a garage- I wouldn't do so either, nor would I have a "powerwall" battery in the actual house.

The legislation has not caught up with high-power batteries yet, there's some large Grid "storage" batteries parked in built up areas in UK, yet in the USA (that bastion of over-regulation ) they must have a 1/4 mile exclusion zone. Came across this when a friend (who is a Fire Risk Assessor) had been doing a FRA for a place that had a big storage batter nearby, so he looked it all up.

To be fair the difference in approach isn’t remotely contradictory and has been well explained in this (and other) threads.

Agreed

But laptop batteries are smaller than those of e scooters and, crucially, legal to buy and use in more situations, so are much more likely to have been subjected to stringent quality testing. That doesn’t mean there’s zero risk of them combusting, but it’s a lower and better understood risk.



But the risk of people doing that is lower, given the more mature market. You can buy a good quality e bike and use it perfectly legally in the UK.

By their nature, e-scooters are starting from being in a "grey area" given that there's not many places to ride them legally. The issue with cheap hoverboards (uncontrolled imports not meeting regulations) causing home fires was reported extensively in the media a few years ago.

Note the sub-head in the article you linked:

A lot easier to do with a laptop battery with a capacity of, say, 5Ah than a scooter battery that might be 20Ah plus.

You can get LiPO bags for smaller batteries quite easily and laptops are usually small enough to wrap in a fire blanket. Laptops (and phones) also come with relatively sophisticated charging control systems and are less likely to get damaged in use.

You then run into issues of practical enforcement by non expert staff, and uncertainty for the public over what will or won’t be allowed. As things stand all e scooters are in a legal grey area, and many are not subject to quality control, hence the approach of outlawing all of them. That’s a clear message people can understand.

E bikes are a mature market, and the vast majority will be compliant with various standards, hence not banning any of them. The fact that there will be exceptions in either category doesn’t change the logic of the overall approach.

E-bikes are in a different price band, and although they are not without issues, are more likely to be legal (as you can quite easily use an e-bike legally in GB, and there's a strong EU market) and hence more likely to be of a quality which reduces the risk. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if they are banned too eventually, after all it's only the common diamond-frame type of simple bike that is allowed on a train, turn up with a tandem, cargo bike, tricycle or recumbent trike, even a bike+trailer, and it's unlikely you'll be allowed to board with it. (Not saying I agree with that- but it is the current situation).

The TOC community has for some time been concerned about the risks posed by lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries and e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards being taken onto stations and trains by passengers and other members of the public.

There are many electronic, mobility and other devices that all contain Li-Ion batteries, ranging from mobile phones to e-bikes, mobility scooters, and laptops. However, most devices production are either well regulated (mobility scooters etc) or small (Low risk – headphones etc) The issue with e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards is their cheap availability, lack of regulation and popularity. Those that cause most concern are the cheap, grey market imported variety. (Cheaply made, unregulated and therefore a higher risk.)

There have been two notable incidents of privately owned powered transporters catching fire whilst on Transport for London (TfL) services or infrastructure and studies show that one out of every 10 million li-Ion batteries fail, a condition that almost always leads to a fire. 670 Li-Ion Battery Fires were recorded in the UK 2019-20 and Sky News (9th February 2023) reported The London Fire Brigade (LFB) were called to 88 fires caused by privately owned e-bikes last year.

Under advice from Rail Delivery Group (RDG), a network wide ban was recommended by RDG, RSSB, London Fire Brigade and endorsed by the ORR.
National Conditions of Travel were amended in December 2021 to all allow TOCs to ban e-scooters and similar devices should they wish.

As of 1st March 2023, the following TOCs have a complete ban on the carriage of e-scooters and similar devices:
Avanti, EMR, Eurostar, TfL, TfW, Trans Pennine, Caledonian Sleepers, London Northwest, LNER, Mersey Rail, Nexus, West Midlands Trains, Cross Country, Grand Central, C2C, ScotRail, GWR, Hull Trains, EMR & Lumo.

Go Ahead Group, who provide our Rail Replacement Buses currently have a nationwide ban on the carriage of e-scooters and similar devices on all their buses.

Therefore, after thorough collaborative Risk Assessment and in line with other TOCs and RDG advice, from 1st June 2023, e-scooters, e-unicycles, e-skateboards and hoverboards will be banned from the GTR Network.

Please find attached a detailed Safety Brief for your information and for display in notice cases in all staff areas. There is also a colleague Q&A document attached which should answer any questions and can be printed off and put in staff areas for reference.

In summary, after the 1st June, please use your training to be politely and respectfully assertive but don’t put yourself in a position of risk. Approach any customer with an e-scooter, e-unicycle, e-skateboard or hoverboard and advise them of the ban and the reasons why and inform them their item will not be permitted for carriage. Prevent escalation, avoid conflict, capture any evidence on Body Worn Video and request BTP assistance if necessary. You can also use the Zero Harm App to log any instances of non-compliance.​

Useful summary, thanks for posting this. Interesting to see the LFB stats too.

TPO

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't be surprised if laptops and some phones do the same; restricting charge level or speed on an older battery with developing anomalies for example. My latest phone has smart charging firmware which allows rapid charging- but also tracks usage patterns so if you charge every night it won't turbo charge unless you do so outside of the usual pattern.

Almost all quality batteries have cell-level monitoring. Not in the e-mobility space, but I installed an inverter and 200Ah backup battery for my parents and it gives you access to the parameters of each cell over a RS-485 link.