East Coast Trains Ltd Launch and branding

[Jorge Da Silva]

when is the website launching? When is an announcement due?

 

[HarryL]

Lumo, Ouigo.
Blue trains, Blue trains.
First Purple, Ouigo purple.

It's been said already but they're a bit on the nose with the brand cloning here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lumo, Ouigo.
Blue trains, Blue trains.
First Purple, Ouigo purple.

It's been said already but they're a bit on the nose with the brand cloning here.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

 

[whoosh]

Especially considering it's heavily rumoured that the trains will be more comfortable than the LNER equivalents!! It would be insane for people not to use them if there was a departure at an appropriate time.

Having seen the units with seats now in place, they look disappointingly like exactly the same seats as LNER's units. I suppose one could hold on to the faint hope that the seat base is thicker foam, but it looks like being exactly the same.

They aren't incentivised to do this because all Advance ticket holders will have a reservation due to the nature of those tickets coming with a seat reservation.

Beyond the seating capacity any tickets will be "Any Permitted" where they recieved a fixed ORCATS revenue anyway so those extra standees are generating them no more revenue than if they took the LNER service a few minutes behind. By allowing people standing down the train in this scenario they'll prevent the trolley from passing through and reduce ancillary revenue, and likely prevent a guard passing through to perform revenue duties too.

Even if they were able to oversell in a way that gave them more revenue per passenger reputationally this would likely be very bad for them and increases aminocity towards staff. It would be the same as a coach company using buses that allowed standing all the way between cities - yes it might "bring in more money" per passenger but you'd likely put enough people off the service for life after experiencing something like that. When you're trying to attract people off the airlines that's not what they'll want to do.

What I would do if I ran the company, would be to ask for volunteers amongst the cheap advance ticket holders, to give up their seats and stand in exchange for a partial refund (75% maybe). The expensive full price walk up passenger gets a seat and isn't upset, and the cheap ticket holder gets an even more cheap journey - probably singing the praises of the company and becoming a repeat customer.

Something that airlines do when they overbook is ask for volunteers to drop back to an alternative flight and get some money back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having seen the units with seats now in place, they look disappointingly like exactly the same seats as LNER's units. I suppose one could hold on to the faint hope that the seat base is thicker foam, but it looks like being exactly the same.

They definitely are not. The seats are discussed on the thread about the units themselves (including some photos) and are a new type not used in the UK before, but similar to the ones being fitted to the Pendolinos at refurb. They are not as upright as the Fainsa Sophia (though I think I recall reading that they will be mounted a bit more "reclined" on the 390) and have larger headrest "wings".

I'm surprised reservations are optional given what was being said originally. I wonder if they need walk-up ticket validity to get some ORCATS money.

 

[whoosh]

They definitely are not. The seats are discussed on the thread about the units themselves (including some photos) and are a new type not used in the UK before, but similar to the ones being fitted to the Pendolinos at refurb. They are not as upright as the Fainsa Sophia (though I think I recall reading that they will be mounted a bit more "reclined" on the 390) and have larger headrest "wings".

I'm surprised reservations are optional given what was being said originally. I wonder if they need walk-up ticket validity to get some ORCATS money.

Well I stand corrected on the seats, although they look like the same ones fitted on LNER, just blue.

I thought they were to be compulsorily reserved too. I suspect you are right about ORCATS.

 

[Starmill]

I thought they were to be compulsorily reserved too. I suspect you are right about ORCATS.

Or possibly people on a railway forum got the wrong idea and no official information was ever provided until just now

 

[whoosh]

Or possibly people on a railway forum got the wrong idea and no official information was ever provided until just now

Ha ha ha! Yes that's true.

 

[py_megapixel]

They definitely are not. The seats are discussed on the thread about the units themselves (including some photos) and are a new type not used in the UK before, but similar to the ones being fitted to the Pendolinos at refurb.

I may be being blind but I've looked through several pages of the traction forum and I can't find the thread you mention. Is there any chance you could link me to the posts with the seat photos? I've not seen them before.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Well I stand corrected on the seats, although they look like the same ones fitted on LNER, just blue.

I thought they were to be compulsorily reserved too. I suspect you are right about ORCATS.

It’s a licence condition to be part of the industry schemes so there wasn’t much choice about accepting inter-available. If they are going to sell last minute dedicated walk up, they will need to have some unreserved in their offer.

The ORCATS “take” on the ECML main flows is really minor these days - the vast majority of ECML revenue is now 100% dedicated - so there isn’t very much inter available for ECTL to go for. Even the connecting traffic is increasingly being subject to “and connections” dedicated joint ticketing arrangements so their pitch can’t rely on ORCATS.

As FG operate Hull Trains they will already know this.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Trainline based sites are suggesting that you can't select an interavailable ticket on an ECTL/Lumo service:



Wonder what's behind that

It's because those fares are now routed "via York", and:

avoiding York
northbound/down only, pass York Yard approx 2 hours after departure
[...]
1S97 dep KGX 1436 (Mon-Fri)

Is this the first major flow that doesn't have an Any Permitted fare? Seems like the timetable has been used as something of a tool to keep the operator out of ORCATS, but still in the fares data. A whole new world.

 

[tommy2215]

It's because those fares are now routed "via York", and:

Is this the first major flow that doesn't have an Any Permitted fare? Seems like the timetable has been used as something of a tool to keep the operator out of ORCATS, but still in the fares data. A whole new world.

Any permitted tickets will be valid and with regards to those tickets being via York, I doubt they will be that fussed over whether the train technically passes through York or uses the York avoiding lines, even if at the minute booking engines are.

 

[hexagon789]

I may be being blind but I've looked through several pages of the traction forum and I can't find the thread you mention. Is there any chance you could link me to the posts with the seat photos? I've not seen them before.

This thread I would presume:

Lumo (East Coast Trains) Class 803 Updates/Discussion

Hi all, I was looking for a thread to ask a few questions on the stock First are going to use for their new Open Access Operator seemingly named East Coast Trains. Apologies if there already is one, if so, please point me to it. The stock will be essentially 5-car 801s with the gen set removed...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Seats discussion starts post #174)

 

[island]

It's because those fares are now routed "via York", and:

Is this the first major flow that doesn't have an Any Permitted fare? Seems like the timetable has been used as something of a tool to keep the operator out of ORCATS, but still in the fares data. A whole new world.

Depends on your definition of “major”, but the reason for the route restriction was that Edinburgh to London singles were undercutting Manchester to London and Avanti got annoyed…

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair as the Lumo Anytime is more than £10 cheaper than the LNER Super Off Peak there would be little benefit to using an Any Permitted for a London-Edinburgh trip, you'd save (a tiny amount) by refunding and repurchasing.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Any permitted tickets will be valid and with regards to those tickets being via York, I doubt they will be that fussed over whether the train technically passes through York or uses the York avoiding lines, even if at the minute booking engines are.

But before I got carried away... the timetable vs. fares is a problem. As they intend them to be valid, there is some tweaking to be done. They're not showing on NRE either, and I think this is correct as it stands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But before I got carried away... the timetable vs. fares is a problem. As they intend them to be valid, there is some tweaking to be done. They're not showing on NRE either, and I think this is correct as it stands.

I'm sure an easement can be put in if that is what is intended, or change York to something else that they do both pass through. I think the handy thing about York is that everything (I think, or very close to it?) stops there as things stand, though - you could put route Peterborough (say) and exclude the WCML that way, but while it would be perfectly valid it would confuse people.

On the other hand not all Chiltern trains call at High Wycombe and I haven't heard of route High Wycombe (which is on the majority of Birmingham-London tickets Chiltern sell) confusing people.

The intention of route York was indeed to stop people buying those tickets for single journeys from Euston to Manchester etc. Though the irony is that now Avanti have removed the Off Peak (Online) fares in favour of reducing the single fares it is no longer cheaper to do that. I suppose there was also Glasgow which isn't cheaper.

 

[Class 466]

Lumo: illumination and motion
www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/train-london-edinburgh-lumo-lner-b1915341.html%3famp

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonder if they bought the trademark or just nicked it?

https://lumoapp.co.uk/

(an electricity supplier as-was)

I guess as that clearly includes a library photo it's now de-embargoed. Wonder how long before the website goes up?

 

[Mike395]

To help keep the discussion tidy considering the official brand launch today, we've locked this thread and split off post-launch discussion into this new thread.