East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[grumpyoldman01]

They tried that before and barely anyone used it as far as I know.

I used it a few times, and found that it could be very useful; however, the last train back to the East Midlands from Manchester Airport was too early for business travelers arriving back in the UK from the continent.

The quality of train also put off quite a few people who I knew who were inbound for business meetings, etc; I'm afraid that when it was a choice between a 153 or a Merc, the Merc usually won!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes I noticed this and wondered what units are these going to be? I can't think of any suitable trains that will be available for May 2020?

Depends what you deem suitable I guess. Believe me there are trains that Abellio feel are suitable that will come off lease soon and they have an 8 in their class designation and that came from an impeccable source.

 

[chubs]

The "go via London" argument is nonsense as it only really applies to Liverpool to Norwich throughout. Liverpool South Parkway to Norwich or Liverpool to Thetford or Warrington to Norwich or... etc are not so easy or quicker. In truth, I imagine it's more obvious flows like Sheffield to Peterborough and Norwich, or Manchester to Peterborough or Ely (for Cambridge) that will be missed. As others have said, journeys via the ECML are sometimes faster but not by a lot, and it takes away the ease of a through train.

I did work it out once that Norwich to Manchester was pretty much the same either way. I'm able bodied and like London so it's not an issue if I have to pass through there as there's always a new cafe or restaurant I want to try, but always take the direct route and am never alone as I see quite a few alight at Manchester or vice versa too. I'm sure the change wont be anywhere near as compelx as a London one but it's still extra hassle for the less abled or people with heavy luggage, young children etc. I suspect it will put some off.

A very sad day.

 

[LeeLivery]

There could well be EWR services linking Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester in the future. But if there isn't a direct connection to Leicester from Wellingborough, there will be quite some annoyance and I can imagine a few protests.

Yes I noticed this and wondered what units are these going to be? I can't think of any suitable trains that will be available for May 2020?

Please, not the HT 180s...

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I noticed this and wondered what units are these going to be? I can't think of any suitable trains that will be available for May 2020?

Indeed.

Surely not Hull trains' 180's !

 

[4-SUB 4732]

They tried that before and barely anyone used it as far as I know.

That was a long time ago, and I’m sure Northern would be relatively happy to see the back of the punctuality-killing reversal of a stopping train at Airport to continue to Crewe (especially when with a little timetable shuffle they can probably get an extra unit and crew back with one less diagram).

 

[eusd]

Surely not 180s. I thought Grand Central would be after those.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Oh I see what's going on. I was looking at Monday to Friday you're looking at Saturday Monday to Friday there's only one EM service from Leeds to Nottingham but on Saturday there is, indeed, a second a bit later in the morning. In any event I'm still not convinced that the logistical hurdles (particularly if the stock isn't based at Neville Hill anymore) is worth it to provide services that realistically should be coming from the Northern franchise.

Agreed. Either operate an all-day hourly Leeds - St Pancras to provide that vast connectivity between West Yorkshire and Leicester etc. Or don’t bother at all!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Two 6 car 185 services between Sheffield and Manchester will be a decent consistent service with an increase in capacity. Assuming that happens of course. Also means they can be marketed together and also stops the situation of EMT running all the way out to Liverpool with the associated ECS moves.

Annoying again that yet another regional TOC is ending up with a much improved regional fleet, whereas Northern are lumbered with class 150s until the end of time.

Not true. 4 car 158s are often used in addition to the 185 on the Cleethorpes so it is actually a downgrade. Unless, of course, a semi-fast service is added from Northern to make it a solid 4tph from Piccadilly to Sheffield which could relieve capacity if we are smart enough to push people into Northern via ‘Northern only’ cheap tickets.

 

[ChrisC]

I did work it out once that Norwich to Manchester was pretty much the same either way. I'm able bodied and like London so it's not an issue if I have to pass through there as there's always a new cafe or restaurant I want to try, but always take the direct route and am never alone as I see quite a few alight at Manchester or vice versa too. I'm sure the change wont be anywhere near as compelx as a London one but it's still extra hassle for the less abled or people with heavy luggage, young children etc. I suspect it will put some off.

A very sad day.

Are the timings likely to remain the same or similar to the current timings? If so I can see lots of passengers annoyed to arrive in Nottingham just in time to see their connection departing with a wait of 1 hour for the next one. With so many trains from Liverpool currently arriving in Nottingham late, surely the connection for Norwich needs to be timed to depart somewhat later than it currently does.

 

[LowLevel]

Having looked at the website, the bad news appears to be that they're planning on replacing some HST's with inferior second hand diesel trains from May 2020, long before the bi-modes come on line.

Hopefully this will only be a very few diagrams.

Early speculation (and it is very early speculation) is that the Corby service will release enough 222s to get rid of the 3 (only 2 really as the 3rd set never operates as such) Angel Trains 6 car HSTs which despite a rather decent lick of paint are mechanically in a less than brilliant state.

Another is that 180s will be burning brightly for a short period in the East Midlands (see what I did there?).

For a fairly dull award I'm finding it all quite interesting.

 

[yorksrob]

Early speculation (and it is very early speculation) is that the Corby service will release enough 222s to get rid of the 3 (only 2 really as the 3rd set never operates as such) Angel Trains 6 car HSTs which despite a rather decent lick of paint are mechanically in a less than brilliant state.

Another is that 180s will be burning brightly for a short period in the East Midlands (see what I did there?).

For a fairly dull award I'm finding it all quite interesting.

The ousting of the GC 180's I can live with.

If it is the 180's, the lunatics will surely have taken over the asylum.

 

[DanTrain]

When will the third fast on the Hope Valley be launched? Do the Dore works need to be done for that? I understood that might skip the Sheffield reverse, but doubtful now as Nottingham wouldn't need 2tph to Stockport and Manchester.

Yes they do...timetabled for 2021 ish now but who knows. The 3rd service will run to Sheffield and then possibly out to Hull, probably TPE operated but could be Northern. There is a rumour of a Derby - Manchester via Crewe service which would compensate for the lack of service over Dore South chord.

 

[yorksrob]

Depends what you deem suitable I guess. Believe me there are trains that Abellio feel are suitable that will come off lease soon and they have an 8 in their class designation and that came from an impeccable source.

I thought Abellio had run trains before ?

 

[cactustwirly]

Having looked at the website, the bad news appears to be that they're planning on replacing some HST's with inferior second hand diesel trains from May 2020, long before the bi-modes come on line.

Hopefully this will only be a very few diagrams.

I suspect it's the ex GC sets being replaced by 222s freed up by the Corby electrification

 

[Helvellyn]

There could well be EWR services linking Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester in the future. But if there isn't a direct connection to Leicester from Wellingborough, there will be quite some annoyance and I can imagine a few protests.

Why does Wellingborough seem relatively poorly served? I am curious because it is a largish town by the looks of it. Rushden seems another big one close by with a good road link. Northampton to the West, Bedford to the South and Huntingdon to the East all have good London services. Less than an hour from London and it only has two trains per hour?

 

[ainsworth74]

I suspect it's the ex GC sets being replaced by 222s freed up by the Corby electrification

Yes I would tend to agree. If you look around the rolling stock market currently the only stock that fits the bill that's going to available in the suggested timescale is the 222s from Corby. The only other stock that's vaguely available is the four 180s from Hull Trains but they're totally new traction to EMR and would be a proper micro fleet as well within the franchise. Quite apart from the reliability issues.

I can't think of anything else that's going to be available in the time frame suggested.

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm rather surprised that St Albans has never been included in East Midlands franchises. Surely some trains could stop there on their way to and from points further north.

 

[howittpie]

Not happy one bit the only investment appears to be on the Midland Mainline services. There needs to be some serious investment in the local fleet but expect nothing more than some 30 year old trains transferred in. The jury is still out wether Abellio will be any good as my experiences travelling on there franchises has not been positive. As a guard on the Matlock said tonight new uniform new paint job and a few stickers and they will then forget about the local services as normal.

 

[londonmidland]

I'm rather surprised that St Albans has never been included in East Midlands franchises. Surely some trains could stop there on their way to and from points further north.

I don't think there is capacity to stop EMT services on the already busy MML South route at St. Albans. Also is the demand even there? St Albans already receives fast services to/from London and I don't think there are many passengers wanting to travel further than Bedford from there.

 

[MikeWM]

Are the timings likely to remain the same or similar to the current timings? If so I can see lots of passengers annoyed to arrive in Nottingham just in time to see their connection departing with a wait of 1 hour for the next one. With so many trains from Liverpool currently arriving in Nottingham late, surely the connection for Norwich needs to be timed to depart somewhat later than it currently does.

...which will then involve a wait on the platform at Nottingham if the connection is on time, because the Norwich isn't even going to start at Nottingham but back from Derby, so no doubt will only be in the platform at Nottingham for a few minutes.

People like my mother (mentioned above) won't do that, so will find some other way to travel. Well done railway, you've just lost passengers.

 

[43055]

Yes I would tend to agree. If you look around the rolling stock market currently the only stock that fits the bill that's going to available in the suggested timescale is the 222s from Corby. The only other stock that's vaguely available is the four 180s from Hull Trains but they're totally new traction to EMR and would be a proper micro fleet as well within the franchise. Quite apart from the reliability issues.

I can't think of anything else that's going to be available in the time frame suggested.

The 222s on Corby isn't until December? This could mean that the 180's from Hull may be likely. As for the local side maybe a mixture of 158 and either 170/175's would be nice with the latter giving a good advantage on the East Coast being capable of 100mph and if the earlier comments about luggage space on the 175 is true could be good trains for Skegness in the summer as well. I suspect some more 156's may come first as a stop gap because of the 153's not being PRM compliant.

Overall I'm happy with the announcement in regards to the Crewe line and the MML for me and I hope that this delivers for both the Local and Intercity side as both are just important as each other.

 

[Kier]

I would like to see a Nottingham - London service that runs non stop from Leicester through to London - both the Sheffield services do so why can't one Nottingham service.

I use the fast service numerous times per year and find it to be a good service on the whole - I do quite like the HSTs. I do not like the idea of every seat having a table - I do not like the awkward eye contact with facing strangers.

 

[yorksrob]

Overall I'm happy with the announcement in regards to the Crewe line and the MML for me and I hope that this delivers for both the Local and Intercity side as both are just important as each other.

It'll deliver nowt but broken down trains if we end up with the 180's.

 

[ainsworth74]

Please note that the Liverpool - Norwich split and it's implications can now be found in a dedicated thread here. There may be more dedicated thread being split out in future so keep on your toes

 

[LeeLivery]

Why does Wellingborough seem relatively poorly served? I am curious because it is a largish town by the looks of it. Rushden seems another big one close by with a good road link. Northampton to the West, Bedford to the South and Huntingdon to the East all have good London services. Less than an hour from London and it only has two trains per hour?

I wouldn't say it's that badly served frequency wise (yet), but it's clearly being let down. Bracknell is almost double the population with the same frequency into London. The timetable since May is laughable, with ridiculous departure times to work around Thameslink. No one seems to really be fighting in Wellingborough's corner. It had a population of 50k in 2011, must be at least 55k now, will almost certainly be >70k by 2031. Yet the town seems to constantly be an afterthought; only thought about when a 3,000+ home urban extension gets proposed and forced through by Westminster (it's getting two of those).

The lack of vision for this town never fails to amaze me. I can't fathom how on earth anyone thinks a town of 50,000 people (2011; must be ~55k now), with 3,600 homes under construction to the east and another 3,000 homes to the north planned and aimed at commuters can be adequately served by 2tph Corby-London trains. That's not even counting the ~35,000 people in the local towns that use Wellingborough as a railhead. It just adds to the feeling that the dire public services can't cope when despite the growth, they can't even keep a direct train to Leicester - something they've had since the 1800s!

All in all, the town has been left to rot. And it seems very clear they're purposely keeping the Wellingborough timetable changes quiet, only mentioning the "Corby Express". So express, it's slower than the current one - more undeserving "express" designation than the Stansted. Even though I don't live up there anymore, it's hard not to get annoyed seeing Wellingborough be screwed over repeatedly.

 

[The Box Photter]

I wonder if these promises will be kept? (my boldening):

• replacing the existing intercity fleet with more reliable and comfortable trains
• delivering more seats on modern, spacious trains

Since most recently introduced fleets have been fitted with very hard seats with less legroom than their predecessors.

Thameslink Desiro City Class 700s were described as being "more spacious" too. That's code for more room to stand.

 

[Robertj21a]

There could well be EWR services linking Bedford and Wellingborough to Leicester in the future. But if there isn't a direct connection to Leicester from Wellingborough, there will be quite some annoyance and I can imagine a few protests.



Please, not the HT 180s...

I struggle to believe that there's many passengers travelling from Wellingborough to Leicester.

 

[tbtc]

Agreed. Either operate an all-day hourly Leeds - St Pancras to provide that vast connectivity between West Yorkshire and Leicester etc. Or don’t bother at all!

+1

It's disappointing when you consider the improvements *not* listed in today's announcement.

A tripling of East Midlands services between Derby and Nottingham (one/hour up to three/hour, in addition to the existing two/hour XC services), some frequency improvements in Lincolnshire, getting rid of some of the worst HSTs before long (and the remainder further on)... but... meh... it feels like a pretty "baseline" announcement without any real treats.

Instead of a proper long InterCity service from Leeds to Sheffield (to complement the hourly XC service) we are instead going to have to rely on a two coach Northern DMU (admittedly sped up by running via Westgate rather than Kirkgate, but it's still going to be a squeeze!).

More services in Lincolnshire, more services between Derby and Nottingham, more seats to Corby (and the stations at the southern end of the MML), but there's so little for Yorkshire that we are reduced to getting excited about the weekly service to York being retained.

Great news for XC, potentially, but that's another story for another thread...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I noticed this and wondered what units are these going to be? I can't think of any suitable trains that will be available for May 2020?

I can't think of any that would have superior acceleration to HSTs as they imply. Other than that, 68+Mk4? Or Class 180s? I hope not the latter, for the sake of anyone wishing to get where they are going.