East Midlands Railway short formed services

[Foxcover]

Right now, would TPE have enough Nova 1s and 3s to take over EMR’s Sheffield- Liverpool paths as a temporary measure and leave EMR to focus on the south section of the route?

 

[dk1]

Sorry, 0742 from Liverpool- Norwich. Don’t know what happened with my typing there! Thanks- have edited

No worries. I see the 05:48 ex-Norwich is F&S departing Nottingham so not sure if that's 2-car also.

 

[londonmidland]

Title amended so all services are now applicable to the thread, not just regional services.

As I’m typing this, a 4 car 222 pulls into Leicester on the 12:04 to London (ex Sheffield) absolutely rammed.

 

[dk1]

11:52 Ex-Liverpool is F&S from Manchester Piccadilly. The engineering work between Colchester & Chelmsford coupled with the reduced EMR service is causing many Norwich-Stansted services to be overcrowded this morning too.

 

[RHolmes]

I bet EMR doesn’t arrange ticket acceptance with TPE or Northern for those denied boarding which, if I had an EMR-only ticket, would make me even more annoyed and likely to argue with the staff. However, for the most part I know better and would never trust EMR between Sheffield and Manchester these days.

They do, they’ve had acceptance with TPE most weekends and certainly some weekdays

Right now, would TPE have enough Nova 1s and 3s to take over EMR’s Sheffield- Liverpool paths as a temporary measure and leave EMR to focus on the south section of the route?

No. There’s no-one trained to crew them/the route

 

[dk1]

Right now, would TPE have enough Nova 1s and 3s to take over EMR’s Sheffield- Liverpool paths as a temporary measure and leave EMR to focus on the south section of the route?

That would be very unlikely & complicated contractually & I doubt if any crews would sign them on this route even if there where enough of them.

 

[Killingworth]

Right now, would TPE have enough Nova 1s and 3s to take over EMR’s Sheffield- Liverpool paths as a temporary measure and leave EMR to focus on the south section of the route?

There may have been an outline plan for TPE to take over Liverpool - Nottingham with 185s but that was quietly shunted into an overgrown siding.

 

[RHolmes]

There may have been an outline plan for TPE to take over Liverpool - Nottingham with 185s but that was quietly shunted into an overgrown siding.

TPE actually won the contract for the route, began hiring drivers for Liverpool and Sheffield depot to run the route but then Covid happened.

It meant that traincrew could not be trained in time, passenger numbers and loading were dramatically down and it was essentially handed back to EMR who had (at the time) sufficient traincrew and rolling stock.

As a result it remains with the current EMR franchise until the foreseeable future but could once again move operator in future depending on TfN’s and DfT’s visions for the future rail network

 

[Killingworth]

TPE actually won the contract for the route, began hiring drivers for Liverpool and Sheffield depot to run the route but then Covid happened.

It meant that traincrew could not be trained in time, passenger numbers and loading were dramatically down and it was essentially handed back to EMR who had (at the time) sufficient traincrew and rolling stock.

As a result it remains with the current EMR franchise until the foreseeable future but could once again move operator in future depending on TfN’s and DfT’s visions for the future rail network

It may be waiting now for the supposed introduction of the 3rd fast service between Sheffield and Manchester at the May 2024 timetable changes following completion of the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme in summer 2023. By that time post Covid needs will be clearer. Whether a 3rd fast transpires is another matter.

 

[Bald Rick]

TPE actually won the contract for the route, began hiring drivers for Liverpool and Sheffield depot to run the route but then Covid happened.

They didn’t ‘win’ the contract, as it was not competed for.

 

[RHolmes]

They didn’t ‘win’ the contract, as it was not competed for.

Won in the sense they were the preferred operator by the DfT, not thorough bidding. It could have transferred to Northern or stayed with EMR. Eventually it did stay with EMR due to Covid.

 

[yorksrob]

The 185's aren't free currently as they're busy providing the extra capacity.

 

[Parallel]

How long will it be until higher power forces EMR to get their act together?

Last time I tried to catch an EMR service from Manchester, the service was cancelled because the train had broken down! The next EMR train an hour later was 2 carriages.

 

[Killingworth]

The 185's aren't free currently as they're busy providing the extra capacity.

TPE were supposed to be returning 15 of them to Eversholt but that has been postponed indefinitely.

 

[Scott W]

Full and standing on the 15:02 from St Pancras to Sheffield yesterday with a couple of odd apology announcements citing the number of passengers who had chosen to use the service. The gentleman next to me was not impressed and had his questioning of the Train Manager who could only make it through the train north of Derby confirmed short forming of four coaches.

 

[Mugby]

There were plenty of EMR Regional units standing idle in Etches Park this afternoon, 156s, 158s and 170s.

Whilst on my train to Nottingham I caught a glimpse of what appeared to be 3x156s working towards Derby, round Gas House Curve at Trent, must have been empty stock as there isn't any booked service at 1510 at that location.
Only a 2-car 170 on the 1524 Nottingham - Worksop, not full but a decent load, probably would have been rather crowded on it's way back.

 

[gazzaa2]

These EMR trains are so busy because they provide an important link between some of the country’s largest cities. Two carriages between Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool is absolute an joke especially on a Saturday morning. This particular train on a Saturday morning has been short formed for a number of weeks now and has been leaving passengers behind at a number of stations.

If it's a Saturday between August and May then one or two of Liverpool, Everton or the Manchester clubs will usually be playing at home. Man United were at home to Everton yesterday at 12.30 kick off, so the morning trains were always going to have a demand just for that match, let alone the fact that the service would be full anyway with 2 cars. I just avoid this service all together now, I use TPE or Northern for that route.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There were plenty of EMR Regional units standing idle in Etches Park this afternoon, 156s, 158s and 170s.

Whilst on my train to Nottingham I caught a glimpse of what appeared to be 3x156s working towards Derby, round Gas House Curve at Trent, must have been empty stock as there isn't any booked service at 1510 at that location.
Only a 2-car 170 on the 1524 Nottingham - Worksop, not full but a decent load, probably would have been rather crowded on it's way back.

Possibly this working https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:65874/2021-10-02/detailed

 

[paddy1]

Seems to be the norm now on EMR London services, 8 car Nottingham HST's and 7 or 9/10 car Sheffield 222's replaced by 4 or 5 car 222's or 180's. Looking at EMR's seat finder page, this reflects this and shows more Sheffield trains showing as 'red' (overcrowded) and with fewer seats than before the change, and more trains trains also showing as 'red' on Sundays due to the shorter trains. The 8 car Corby electrics have done nothing to alleviate potential crowding issues on longer distances services as most of the Sheffield trains are non stop between London and Leicester, but many more are now only 4 or 5 car compared to 7, 8 or even 9/10 cars as before, and fast Nottingham trains now also call at Kettering as well. That the new trains on order are only 5 coaches long doesn't bode well in terms of reducing the overcrowding. They say they will be 'regularly running these new trains as 10 car formations, but why would they when they are getting away with only running 4 or 5 car trains now?

 

[STINT47]

When adding up the number of vehicles the new Intercity fleet will have an extra two coaches compared to what EMR have now, although each coach will have more seats than on a Meridian.

Although an increase in seats compared to today two extra coaches will not go far and there will still be plenty of five coach trains. Given that services ate currently overcrowded these extra seats are soon going to be filled.

On the regional side most services will be two car Turbostars, which have less seats than the sprinters they're replacing. They shouldn't have took the centre cars out when they came over.

It does seem that the East Midlands are being treated poorly both currently and with planned fleets for the future. Most new franchise got an increase in capacity EMR seem to have been given a decrease.

 

[ashworth]

If it's a Saturday between August and May then one or two of Liverpool, Everton or the Manchester clubs will usually be playing at home. Man United were at home to Everton yesterday at 12.30 kick off, so the morning trains were always going to have a demand just for that match, let alone the fact that the service would be full anyway with 2 cars. I just avoid this service all together now, I use TPE or Northern for that route.

It also doesn’t help that with the reduced timetables Liverpool to Norwich is only every 2 hours at certain times of the day. Even more disgraceful that EMR are regularly only running 2 car trains on those remaining in the timetable. Even allowing for increased maintenance there must be plenty of stock available if you consider all the trains on various routes which have been removed from the timetable. They have lost a few 153s but they have gained some 170s so they don’t have any less stock than before. Perhaps I am missing something.

 

[bunnahabhain]

When adding up the number of vehicles the new Intercity fleet will have an extra two coaches compared to what EMR have now, although each coach will have more seats than on a Meridian.

Although an increase in seats compared to today two extra coaches will not go far and there will still be plenty of five coach trains. Given that services ate currently overcrowded these extra seats are soon going to be filled.

On the regional side most services will be two car Turbostars, which have less seats than the sprinters they're replacing. They shouldn't have took the centre cars out when they came over.

It does seem that the East Midlands are being treated poorly both currently and with planned fleets for the future. Most new franchise got an increase in capacity EMR seem to have been given a decrease.

I believe the theory is that the Intercity services will have additional capacity because they'll no longer be serving Wellingborough, Bedford or Luton so loadings can be more evenly spread across them from the North.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the theory is that the Intercity services will have additional capacity because they'll no longer be serving Wellingborough, Bedford or Luton so loadings can be more evenly spread across them from the North.

Also the distinction between "fast" and "slow" London trains will be reduced or eliminated, so people from Leicester and further north who tended to go for the fast are more likely to spread evenly across the four available trains.

 

[yorksrob]

When adding up the number of vehicles the new Intercity fleet will have an extra two coaches compared to what EMR have now, although each coach will have more seats than on a Meridian.

Although an increase in seats compared to today two extra coaches will not go far and there will still be plenty of five coach trains. Given that services ate currently overcrowded these extra seats are soon going to be filled.

On the regional side most services will be two car Turbostars, which have less seats than the sprinters they're replacing. They shouldn't have took the centre cars out when they came over.

It does seem that the East Midlands are being treated poorly both currently and with planned fleets for the future. Most new franchise got an increase in capacity EMR seem to have been given a decrease.

It's a shame to see what was one of the best franchises becoming a cinderella.

It's appalling that they seem intent on baking in inadequate capacity into the new fleets.

 

[Watershed]

It's a shame to see what was one of the best franchises becoming a cinderella.

It's appalling that they seem intent on baking in inadequate capacity into the new fleets.

Sadly I doubt that a more significant expansion of the fleet would have passed financial muster, even if it had worked logistically (the 4 short-ish platforms at St Pancras are a notable constraint, even more so now that the Kettering services are separated out).

 

[Llandudno]

Also the distinction between "fast" and "slow" London trains will be reduced or eliminated, so people from Leicester and further north who tended to go for the fast are more likely to spread evenly across the four available trains.

No doubt the other tactic EMR will employ to curb demand and reduce overcrowding is to ramp up the price of Advance tickets.

Probably cheaper for Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby passengers to change at Tamworth!

 

[Killingworth]

No doubt the other tactic EMR will employ to curb demand and reduce overcrowding is to ramp up the price of Advance tickets.

Probably cheaper for Sheffield, Chesterfield and Derby passengers to change at Tamworth!

I was looking at a journey from Sheffield to the Brighton line. May be best on price to go outbound via Doncaster and ECML and back on WCML via Stockport! My enthusiasm for trying that may not be shared by my better half who reckons Chesterfield to St Pancras is easiest. We'll see.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's appalling that they seem intent on baking in inadequate capacity into the new fleets.

The new fleet has significantly more capacity than what it replaces.

 

[yorksrob]

The new fleet has significantly more capacity than what it replaces.

As long as this additional capacity finds its way to Sheffield.

 

[paddy1]

As long as this additional capacity finds its way to Sheffield.

I do find it rather perverse and baffling that Abellio, the same company who run both EMR and Gtr Anglia, deemed that 12 car trains are appropriate for Intercity services services running half hourly between London and Ipswich/Norwich (with an additional third service planned) but that 5 car trains are sufficient for Leicester/Derby/Nottingham/Sheffield services, the latter group all being much larger and far more important places?

I know that traffic flows and volumes, especially on routes to/from London, do not strictly correlate with population, city size, admin boundaries, distance etc (something which has already been done to death many times on this forum) but there is still a very large discrepancy capacity wise between the two routes, especially bearing in mind that Nottingham and Sheffield are large conurbations and important regional centres for their respective regions and Leicester and Derby likewise as large and important sub regional centres, and all of them on a different scale population and catchment area wise compared to Ipswich and Norwich.

Also, Abellio (i.e. Netherlands Railways) would never contemplate, or ever getting away with, running 5 car Intercity trains between Amsterdam and important regional centres.