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East-West Rail in Westminster

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MK Tom

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There aren't any actual buildings on it apart from the chord to Midland station, it is just the number of lakes! If the X4 is anything like the X5 then it will be horrendously expensive. Does it go to the station in Northampton? No good for Wellingborough to Birmingham traffic if it doesn't. The X5 helpfully only stops at Tesco in Buckingham and not in the town itself:roll:

The X4 isn't a high-class coach service like the X5, it's more of an interurban bus route. Also the X5's been rerouted to run through Buckingham town centre as of August 21st.

The problem with Northampton-Wellingborough is the A45 at the Northampton end and all the lakes. For Wellingborough-Birmingham I can't imagine that's a massive flow but there would probably be demand for a Bedford-Birmingham service using the south chord at South Wigston. There's plenty of free capacity on the MML north of Bedford.

I would love to have the Bletchley/MKC-Bedford services extended up to Corby and possibly even through to Peterborough or Leicester. That would give MK so many obvious connections that it's been denied.
 
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Buttsy

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I understood that with the clearance work on Flexistowe-Nuneaton completed that the Stamford route would be close to capacity with freight and the residual hourly passenger service.

There may not be a huge demand for Oxford-Cambridge, but the route gives a further non-London routing for freight (Felixstowe-SW) and, I understand, there is a potential for traffic to the intermediate stations (Cambridge-MK, MK-Bicester [for Bicester Village] etc.). I also believe (and am prepared to be corrected) that the X5 is well loaded throughout the day.
 

tbtc

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This rather nostalgic, Victorian notion of academics shuttling to and from Oxford and Cambridge in their robes in reality probably wouldn't fill a 153 on its own

I agree.

There are plenty of places that an East-West line could involve at either end - the "Oxbridge" connection gets over-played far too much
 

Nym

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Well, Heathrow Airport - Reading - Oxford - Bletchley / MK - Bedford - Peterbrough - Cambridge - Standstead Airport would be much more useful...
 

route:oxford

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I agree.

There are plenty of places that an East-West line could involve at either end - the "Oxbridge" connection gets over-played far too much

Absolutey.

At the moment, you can purchase a 3 bedroom detached house minutes from Bletchley Station for around £160K.

With house prices notoriously high in Oxford, talking £20-30K extra for a parking space with some new builds, a detached place a mere 30 min commute by fast rail service could be very attractive and may even relieve the pressure for housing in Oxford slightly.

Will Bletcley be the new "up and coming area"?
 

MK Tom

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I also believe (and am prepared to be corrected) that the X5 is well loaded throughout the day.

'Overloaded' would be a better word on some services. I wish they'd use those vehicles they use on the Oxford Tube on it.
 

cle

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Absolutey.

At the moment, you can purchase a 3 bedroom detached house minutes from Bletchley Station for around £160K.

With house prices notoriously high in Oxford, talking £20-30K extra for a parking space with some new builds, a detached place a mere 30 min commute by fast rail service could be very attractive and may even relieve the pressure for housing in Oxford slightly.

Will Bletcley be the new "up and coming area"?

I doubt it!

It'll mean people can live in nicer places, and still commute to MK - no offence to anyone.
 
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For Wellingborough-Birmingham I can't imagine that's a massive flow but there would probably be demand for a Bedford-Birmingham service using the south chord at South Wigston

Wellingborough on it's own wouldn't be viable but no single town would! You would extend a Northampton service and it would also serve Kettering and Corby and directly and be a railhead for Rusdhen, Higham Ferrers and Irthlingborough (total population in excess of 200,000) plus the key market of to/from Northampton and Milton Keynes. Northampton is the county town of 1 of the 5 main East Midlands counties but has no links to any of the others, requiring changing at either Nuneaton or Tamworth - going to Nottingham is particularly poor.

I do know some people do travel Kettering - Birmingham via Leicester but I suspect most would drive to either Northampton or Long Buckby. Bedford - Birmingham via Wigston is too slow and there are real troubles with capacity on the Hinckley & Whitacre routes and also between Kettering North Jn. - Wigston. In days of old, all the fast expresses to Nottingham went via Manton.
 

tbtc

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Northampton is the county town of 1 of the 5 main East Midlands counties but has no links to any of the others

Passenger demand doesn't follow county boundaries though - otherwise there'd be demand for Glossop to have a direct service to Derby (instead of Manchester).

Milton Keynes/ Coventry/ Rugby/ Birmingham (etc) may not be in the East Midlands, but there seems to be a lot of demand between Northampton and these places - got to react to *actual* demand.
 
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Milton Keynes/ Coventry/ Rugby/ Birmingham (etc) may not be in the East Midlands, but there seems to be a lot of demand between Northampton and these places - got to react to *actual* demand.

Would like to give any evidence to suggest there isn't the demand. Heavy traffic on the M1 and A508 suggest there is. The A45 & A605 from Northampton to Peterborough has been heavily upgraded. The heavily congested A14, A45, A428, A43 etc. show there is a lot of demand in the county for links other than London. A lot of the traffic from Rugby to Northampton is due to the fact that the link is there and the roads are poor (if you use the A428).
 

A0wen

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The X4 isn't a high-class coach service like the X5, it's more of an interurban bus route. Also the X5's been rerouted to run through Buckingham town centre as of August 21st.

The problem with Northampton-Wellingborough is the A45 at the Northampton end and all the lakes. For Wellingborough-Birmingham I can't imagine that's a massive flow but there would probably be demand for a Bedford-Birmingham service using the south chord at South Wigston. There's plenty of free capacity on the MML north of Bedford.

I would love to have the Bletchley/MKC-Bedford services extended up to Corby and possibly even through to Peterborough or Leicester. That would give MK so many obvious connections that it's been denied.

Not now - the X4 has been upgraded in the last couple of weeks to new double-deck coaches with wi-fi. More than comparable with the X5.

Image of new vehicles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusblog/6385737265/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would like to give any evidence to suggest there isn't the demand. Heavy traffic on the M1 and A508 suggest there is. The A45 & A605 from Northampton to Peterborough has been heavily upgraded. The heavily congested A14, A45, A428, A43 etc. show there is a lot of demand in the county for links other than London. A lot of the traffic from Rugby to Northampton is due to the fact that the link is there and the roads are poor (if you use the A428).

There is demand for a good transport link from Northampton to Peterborough, Leicester, Nottingham and Derby, but I don't believe for a minute that the volume of traffic even comes close to justifying re-instatement of Northampton - Wellingborough rail line.

Of the roads you mention, the A45, A428 A605 and A43 (from Northmpton northwards) have seen little if any improvement in the last 30 years with little if any capacity increase. They run through various towns and villages and (with the exception of the A45) are single carriageway for virtually all their length in Northants.

Take a look at the A43 from Northampton to the M40 - this has been upgraded as part of the Silverstone improvements and apart from the junction at Towcester, it rarely if ever suffers from congestion, which plagued the old road.

The A14 from the M6 to Cambridge (where it took over the 'old' A45) was largely done 'on the cheap' as a dual carriageway, when it should have been a Motorway standard road throughout.

The costs of improving the A45, A43, A428 will probably be less than reinstating the Northampton - Wellingboro' line and offer far more benefit to far more people.

Of the other former lines around Northampton:

Northampton - Bedford would be of marginal use, it would put Olney back on the rail map, but doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Bedford. Given Thameslink is at capacity from Bedford south, more services on that stretch would cause a problem.

Northampton - Mkt Harborough. Probably reinstateable - though the Northampton & Lamport railway would lose out. Again, doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Leicester so can't really see the justification for this one.

Northampton - Towcester - Banbury. No chance of ever being reinstated. The formation has been built over in too many places. Also if E-W comes to pass, then Northampton - Oxford (probably the most likely traffic flow) will be achieved with 1 change at Bletchley, so again, can't see justification for reinstating this one.

There are no shortage of people with bright ideas about 'ooh we should reinstate 'x', there's demand, look how busy the roads are' - who really don't seem to consider (i) whether the roads in question have seen any investment and (ii) the likely journeys people are making - Philip Eliot seems to fall into this category.
 

tbtc

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Would like to give any evidence to suggest there isn't the demand. Heavy traffic on the M1 and A508 suggest there is. The A45 & A605 from Northampton to Peterborough has been heavily upgraded. The heavily congested A14, A45, A428, A43 etc. show there is a lot of demand in the county for links other than London. A lot of the traffic from Rugby to Northampton is due to the fact that the link is there and the roads are poor (if you use the A428).

Roads like the A43 and A14 are busy because of long distance traffic (the A43 is like an extra "ring" of the M25, the A14 busy with freight heading to East Anglian ports etc.

That doesn't mean that the traffic making those roads busy is all "local" - a Northampton to Peterborough train isn't going to take much of that traffic off the roads.
 

Invincibles

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IF the budget was there then Northampton to Market Harborough offers good opportunities for Cross Country services to avoid Birmingham and serve Leicester. Also with a reopened Great Glen station I think a train on that route could do quite well (I would extend the Ivanhoe train to call at Wigston* Great Glen* Market Harborough then on to Northampton and ideally MK - Totally off topic I would run this train to Kettering with additional looped stations on the MML as it is)

However, I think it is not daft to run trains from Bedford north to Leicester and Nottingham using the East-West as a way to ease pressure on through Birmingham services (just this route would be longer than a Northampton - Market Harborough link). It may even show the demand for other reopenings across the links.

The advantage of Northampton is another big population centre and less pressure on the Marston Link.
 

MK Tom

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Not now - the X4 has been upgraded in the last couple of weeks to new double-deck coaches with wi-fi. More than comparable with the X5.

Image of new vehicles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusblog/6385737265/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah I saw one of these at Greyfriars and I see them in Oxford all the time. They're nice but they're still buses and not anything like X5 standard of comfort.

There is demand for a good transport link from Northampton to Peterborough, Leicester, Nottingham and Derby, but I don't believe for a minute that the volume of traffic even comes close to justifying re-instatement of Northampton - Wellingborough rail line.

Of the roads you mention, the A45, A428 A605 and A43 (from Northmpton northwards) have seen little if any improvement in the last 30 years with little if any capacity increase. They run through various towns and villages and (with the exception of the A45) are single carriageway for virtually all their length in Northants.

...

Of the other former lines around Northampton:

Northampton - Bedford would be of marginal use, it would put Olney back on the rail map, but doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Bedford. Given Thameslink is at capacity from Bedford south, more services on that stretch would cause a problem.

Northampton - Mkt Harborough. Probably reinstateable - though the Northampton & Lamport railway would lose out. Again, doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Leicester so can't really see the justification for this one.

Northampton - Towcester - Banbury. No chance of ever being reinstated. The formation has been built over in too many places. Also if E-W comes to pass, then Northampton - Oxford (probably the most likely traffic flow) will be achieved with 1 change at Bletchley, so again, can't see justification for reinstating this one.

There are no shortage of people with bright ideas about 'ooh we should reinstate 'x', there's demand, look how busy the roads are' - who really don't seem to consider (i) whether the roads in question have seen any investment and (ii) the likely journeys people are making - Philip Eliot seems to fall into this category.

Yeah reopening old lines is copiously expensive when you don't still have the formation - look at the struggle we have with just the tiny length from Bedford to Sandy. I would love little more than to have a direct MK-Nottingham service and I think the only affordable way to achieve that would be a chord at Tamworth, much as I'd prefer the Rugby-Leicester line to reopen.

East-West Rail does offer loads of potential journeys and connections though, and some like MK-Peterborough basically already exist (I'm sure even with two reversals it would still significantly outperform the astonishing four hour journey time on the X4). Still I think the most obvious potential is for a Bristol/Cardiff-Peterborough/Rugby service running via Swindon, Oxford, Bletchley then either Bedford and Corby or MK and Northampton. But this is all dreaming really and I think we should be celebrating the fact we even just might get Oxford-Bletchley. :D
 
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Northampton - Bedford would be of marginal use, it would put Olney back on the rail map, but doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Bedford. Given Thameslink is at capacity from Bedford south, more services on that stretch would cause a problem.

Northampton - Bedford - Hitchin opens up Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire & Essex to Birmingham and the northwest.

Northampton - Mkt Harborough. Probably reinstateable - though the Northampton & Lamport railway would lose out. Again, doesn't serve anywhere significant between Northampton and Leicester so can't really see the justification for this one.

It allows Oxford, Milton Keynes & Northampton to the Leicester/Derby/Nottingham triangle. Milton Keynes is due for a huge expansion which is will make one of the most important urban centres in the UK yet the rail links to it are very poor. The line only closed in 1980 remember - it has strategic railfreight importance. Up until the end it had 20 trains a night to Didcot power station - via Bletchley & Bicester...but they were diverted via Birmingham which is now heavily congested. The East Midlands is described as the 'distribution capital of the UK' yet only has the one container terminal (DIRFT). Many of the Stobart, Malcolm & Russell containers to DIRFT end up at Magna Park, Lutterworth which is sandwiched in between the two closed Rugby - Leicester lines. The A5 is re-surfaced every 10 years because of the sheer volume of lorries (and the Lutterworth southern bypass was built to allow access to the M1).

The A14 from the M6 to Cambridge (where it took over the 'old' A45) was largely done 'on the cheap' as a dual carriageway, when it should have been a Motorway standard road throughout.

The A45 was re-numbered to the A14 east of Cambridge. From the M6 to Thrapston it was an all new road and then an upgraded A604. The A43 was not only widened through Silverstone but also to Northampton and with the A45 forms the Northampton bypass. The dual-carriageway on the A45 extends to only a few miles short of Thrapston. The A605 north of there was significantly upgraded to trunk route status (using the trackbed of the Peterborough line).

There are no shortage of people with bright ideas about 'ooh we should reinstate 'x', there's demand, look how busy the roads are' - who really don't seem to consider (i) whether the roads in question have seen any investment and (ii) the likely journeys people are making - Philip Eliot seems to fall into this category.

So how do you propose to get people out of their cars? In case you hadn't noticed, the DfT is spending £280 million + investing in the A14/M6 interchange - clearly connections to Birmingham, the northwest and the west in general to/from the east are important.

You are correct to say that east-west roads carry a huge mixture of different journeys and therefore is much difficult to transfer to rail than going to London. However, if we don't get the core links in, we can't develop the local feeder services and we'll be stuck as a car-loving nation. I take it A0wen that you drive? My rationale is simple - I want a transport network that is a viable alternative to using a car. At the moment we aren't even close.

When I went to the Long Marston open day in 2007, it take me 4.5hrs for a journey that is less than an hour in the car (which involves nearly all use of single carriageway roads many of which are country lanes and not direct).

Interestingly Alloa is not a large town at all yet we know just how successful that has been (although there is a more obvious main flow of traffic to Stirling)

much as I'd prefer the Rugby-Leicester line to reopen.

Via the GCR of course;) Although a direct link to MK is a little difficult!
 

LE Greys

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Northampton - Bedford - Hitchin opens up Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire & Essex to Birmingham and the northwest.

I've been waiting for that for a very long time. Having to go into London or up to Peterborough is very annoying when all you want to do is go to Northampton by train (not that I've ever been to Northampton, except passing through). Thing is, I'm still likely to be waiting at least until Graveley is swallowed up by Stevenage.

It allows Oxford, Milton Keynes & Northampton to the Leicester/Derby/Nottingham triangle. Milton Keynes is due for a huge expansion which is will make one of the most important urban centres in the UK yet the rail links to it are very poor. The line only closed in 1980 remember - it has strategic railfreight importance. Up until the end it had 20 trains a night to Didcot power station - via Bletchley & Bicester...but they were diverted via Birmingham which is now heavily congested. The East Midlands is described as the 'distribution capital of the UK' yet only has the one container terminal (DIRFT). Many of the Stobart, Malcolm & Russell containers to DIRFT end up at Magna Park, Lutterworth which is sandwiched in between the two closed Rugby - Leicester lines. The A5 is re-surfaced every 10 years because of the sheer volume of lorries (and the Lutterworth southern bypass was built to allow access to the M1).

That would seem to support the case.

The A45 was re-numbered to the A14 east of Cambridge. From the M6 to Thrapston it was an all new road and then an upgraded A604. The A43 was not only widened through Silverstone but also to Northampton and with the A45 forms the Northampton bypass. The dual-carriageway on the A45 extends to only a few miles short of Thrapston. The A605 north of there was significantly upgraded to trunk route status (using the trackbed of the Peterborough line).

If I had my way, I'd upgrade the whole Peterborough-Girton Interchange section to be an extension of the M11, with the A14 returning to the Ermine Street route, the A45 getting its old number back and Girton-Ipswich being upgraded to A45(M) to link with the M12 from London to Felixstowe. I know that's not the issue here, but just thought I'd mention it anyway.

So how do you propose to get people out of their cars? In case you hadn't noticed, the DfT is spending £280 million + investing in the A14/M6 interchange - clearly connections to Birmingham, the northwest and the west in general to/from the east are important.

You are correct to say that east-west roads carry a huge mixture of different journeys and therefore is much difficult to transfer to rail than going to London. However, if we don't get the core links in, we can't develop the local feeder services and we'll be stuck as a car-loving nation. I take it A0wen that you drive? My rationale is simple - I want a transport network that is a viable alternative to using a car. At the moment we aren't even close.

When I went to the Long Marston open day in 2007, it take me 4.5hrs for a journey that is less than an hour in the car (which involves nearly all use of single carriageway roads many of which are country lanes and not direct).

Interestingly Alloa is not a large town at all yet we know just how successful that has been (although there is a more obvious main flow of traffic to Stirling)

Various things would help there, but more connectivity and not relying so much on London as a relay centre would be one of them.

Via the GCR of course;) Although a direct link to MK is a little difficult!

I think you'll get that the same day I get my Braintree-Stansted-Cambridge-Sandy-Bedford line. :(
 

tbtc

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Interestingly Alloa is not a large town at all yet we know just how successful that has been

I love the way that Alloa is still used to justify every fanciful re-opening/ new line, despite the more "realistic"/ "underwhelming" passenger numbers at stations that have opened more recently (the new stations between Airdrie and Bathgate, East Midlands Parkway etc).

Every flawed business model comes with the idea that "because the Alloa line performed better than expectations, this is bound to too".
 

The Planner

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The line only closed in 1980 remember - it has strategic railfreight importance. Up until the end it had 20 trains a night to Didcot power station - via Bletchley & Bicester...but they were diverted via Birmingham which is now heavily congested. The East Midlands is described as the 'distribution capital of the UK' yet only has the one container terminal (DIRFT). Many of the Stobart, Malcolm & Russell containers to DIRFT end up at Magna Park, Lutterworth which is sandwiched in between the two closed Rugby - Leicester lines.

I'm not convinced that it is such a strategic route now, Didcot A closes in 2015 so that coal traffic would never return. Anything would just utilise Portbury/Avonmouth for cheap imports. Im not sure what else could use it, class 4 traffic from the south to Leeds possibly. DIRFT is being extended all the time with DIRFT 2 opening soon, but most of that traffic is West Coast based.


the DfT is spending £280 million + investing in the A14/M6 interchange - clearly connections to Birmingham, the northwest and the west in general to/from the east are important.

That was just a massive mistake by the Dft, having possibly the largest N-S-E-W axis roads meet at two tiny tiny roundabouts under the M1 with a minor local road (was the old A427) also in the mix was just plain stupidity and cost cutting utilising the existing bridge under the M1.
 
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That was just a massive mistake by the Dft, having possibly the largest N-S-E-W axis roads meet at two tiny tiny roundabouts under the M1 with a minor local road (was the old A427) also in the mix was just plain stupidity and cost cutting utilising the existing bridge under the M1.

Wrong junction planner;) The A427 was at Junction 20 - now split four ways - A427 Oundle - Market Harborough, A4304 Market Harborough - M1, A4303 M1 - Cross-in-Hand (Magna Park) via Lutterworth Southern bypass (only 3 miles long), B4027 Cross-in-Hand to Coventry. The A4303 is desiganted a trunk route (because of all the lorries) - a big section was re-surfaced recently despite only opening in 1999. The Coventry Road here in Lutterworth was downgraded from A427 to A4303 and now nothing at all! At least it is now relatively quiet, crossing it going to school was an absolute nightmare.

The road you are thinking of is just a country lane linking Swinford and Catthorpe. The whole Junction 19 dibacle is a typical Tory mess - doing it on the cheap and let someone else pick up the mess. The new junction isn't going to be great either though - it will no longer be possible to go from the M6 to the M1 north, forcing more traffic onto the heavily congested A426<(


I love the way that Alloa is still used to justify every fanciful re-opening/ new line, despite the more "realistic"/ "underwhelming" passenger numbers at stations that have opened more recently (the new stations between Airdrie and Bathgate, East Midlands Parkway etc).

Every flawed business model comes with the idea that "because the Alloa line performed better than expectations, this is bound to too".

In recent years there have been several very successful schemes (Alloa, Ebw Vale, Laurencekirk) and several unsuccesful schemes (Channel Tunnel/HS1, Corby, East Midlands Parkway, Coleshill Parkway). There is a clear link between the successful and unsuccessful ones - the successful have been primarily local schemes whilst the unsuccessful have been long distance / drive part way then take the train [parkway] schemes. Corby needs a link more to Northampton / Peterborough / Leicester than it does to London. What makes you think a station at Toton with 2tph to London winding its' way via Solihull is going to be any better than the current East Midlands parkway which also adds as a park & ride to Nottingham & Derby?
 

tbtc

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In recent years there have been several very successful schemes (Alloa, Ebw Vale, Laurencekirk) and several unsuccesful schemes (Channel Tunnel/HS1, Corby, East Midlands Parkway, Coleshill Parkway). There is a clear link between the successful and unsuccessful ones - the successful have been primarily local schemes whilst the unsuccessful have been long distance / drive part way then take the train [parkway] schemes. Corby needs a link more to Northampton / Peterborough / Leicester than it does to London. What makes you think a station at Toton with 2tph to London winding its' way via Solihull is going to be any better than the current East Midlands parkway which also adds as a park & ride to Nottingham & Derby?

...except that Laurencekirk is essentially a "parkway" station for much of Aberdeenshire - there are only a couple of thousand of people living in the village itself. I'd wager that most of the passengers who use it have driven a reasonable way to get to their train.
 

MK Tom

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I wouldn't call Corby station unsuccessful. Every time I've been there there have been people at the station and people (initially few then more each time) on the train. Remember that Corby is a very rapidly growing town and at first the service provided to it included a quarter hour wait at Kettering. Its patronage will only grow in the years to come, especially if services are extended to the north. I do agree however that there is a stronger demand for connections to Northampton, Peterborough and Leicester than there is to Wellingborough and Bedford and maybe London, although a link to London has done wonders for Corby's economy.
 

The Planner

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Wrong junction planner;)

Nope, not according to the attached file (can't link from SABRE, unless someone knows how to !) of the old OS maps. The A427 used to run from Rugby up to North Kilworth via Catthorpe and Swinford, which is now the un-classified local road.
 

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That's going back a long way! The A4114 as depicted on the map became the A427 back in the '60s I think - it never appeared on the modern standard type signposts. From Rugby to Clifton it became the B5415 or somesuch number. The suspect the original classification came about because there was a railway from Rugby to Market Harborough via Kilworth.

So the A427 served both junctions and in the words of Humphrey Appleby was a "raving schizophrenic";)
 

LE Greys

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In recent years there have been several very successful schemes (Alloa, Ebw Vale, Laurencekirk) and several unsuccesful schemes (Channel Tunnel/HS1, Corby, East Midlands Parkway, Coleshill Parkway). There is a clear link between the successful and unsuccessful ones - the successful have been primarily local schemes whilst the unsuccessful have been long distance / drive part way then take the train [parkway] schemes. Corby needs a link more to Northampton / Peterborough / Leicester than it does to London. What makes you think a station at Toton with 2tph to London winding its' way via Solihull is going to be any better than the current East Midlands parkway which also adds as a park & ride to Nottingham & Derby?

I do wonder who was the genius who thought up the Toton Parkway idea. Even putting the station right next to East Midlands Parkway would be better than that. The ideal would be to run the line right through Nottingham, demolish the Victoria Centre and rebuild Nottingham Victoria as a station with an improved shopping centre on top, provided there was a passage for natural light to the platforms to avoid creating another New Street. However, that's probably impractical. Still, it's important to run the line through either Nottingham or Derby and serve one of the existing stations. That's why I'm so keen on sending it through Darlington as well instead of some new Teesside Parkway. The EMP compromise is possible, and would provide an access point for permanent way trains or weekend diversions, but I don't like it much.
 

HSTEd

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Well you could probably fit a City Thameslink style box station in the Car Park of the Victoria centre..... but the lien would likely have to be electrified.
 

A0wen

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Northampton - Bedford - Hitchin opens up Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire & Essex to Birmingham and the northwest.

You've no chance of getting Bedford - Hitchin back, too much has developed over the trackbed south of Henlow, so you can forget that one.

And last time I checked, Herts had a direct link to Birmingham (Watford and Hemel to New St).

Essex does from Stansted Airport. And East Essex wouldn't benefit from this.

It allows Oxford, Milton Keynes & Northampton to the Leicester/Derby/Nottingham triangle. Milton Keynes is due for a huge expansion which is will make one of the most important urban centres in the UK yet the rail links to it are very poor. The line only closed in 1980 remember - it has strategic railfreight importance. Up until the end it had 20 trains a night to Didcot power station - via Bletchley & Bicester...but they were diverted via Birmingham which is now heavily congested. The East Midlands is described as the 'distribution capital of the UK' yet only has the one container terminal (DIRFT). Many of the Stobart, Malcolm & Russell containers to DIRFT end up at Magna Park, Lutterworth which is sandwiched in between the two closed Rugby - Leicester lines. The A5 is re-surfaced every 10 years because of the sheer volume of lorries (and the Lutterworth southern bypass was built to allow access to the M1).

Somebody else has pointed out Didcot's life is limited so that doesn't work.

And the Rugby - Leicester lines don't feature in any of the ideas, so you're simply adding more 'let's re-opens' to the list......

The A45 was re-numbered to the A14 east of Cambridge. From the M6 to Thrapston it was an all new road and then an upgraded A604. The A43 was not only widened through Silverstone but also to Northampton and with the A45 forms the Northampton bypass. The dual-carriageway on the A45 extends to only a few miles short of Thrapston. The A605 north of there was significantly upgraded to trunk route status (using the trackbed of the Peterborough line).

You've largely re-iterated my points, however you're wrong about the A43 dualling in Northampton - that pre-dates the dualling from the M1 to M40. I believe it was done to support the development of the Hunsbury area of Northampton.

The A605 is totally inadequate for the role it performs. It is single carriageway with few if any safe passing places and has a large number of slow vehicles which cause tailbacks. It could and should be improved to dual carriageway linking the A1M at Peterborough to Thrapston.

So how do you propose to get people out of their cars? In case you hadn't noticed, the DfT is spending £280 million + investing in the A14/M6 interchange - clearly connections to Birmingham, the northwest and the west in general to/from the east are important.

You are correct to say that east-west roads carry a huge mixture of different journeys and therefore is much difficult to transfer to rail than going to London. However, if we don't get the core links in, we can't develop the local feeder services and we'll be stuck as a car-loving nation. I take it A0wen that you drive? My rationale is simple - I want a transport network that is a viable alternative to using a car. At the moment we aren't even close.

I don't is the simple answer. Instead rail has a part to play in accommodating key passenger flows e.g. commuter traffic into London. Intercity traffic. And probably most importantly, freight.

Yes, I drive. But I have also used the train where it makes sense to my circumstances. And there are many circumstances where rail links, however good, are totally inappropriate to the journey I need to make.

No country, either same size or larger than the UK, in the world has a rail network which is a 'viable alternative to using a car'. Very small countries e.g. Switzerland may have, but their geography and population distribution is very different. Compare the UK to France, Sweden, Spain, Portugal or Italy to make meaningful comparisons.

When I went to the Long Marston open day in 2007, it take me 4.5hrs for a journey that is less than an hour in the car (which involves nearly all use of single carriageway roads many of which are country lanes and not direct).

How terrible - so the rail network should provide a direct link from Lutterworth to Long Marston (basically nowhere very important to nowhere very important) for the 1 day every couple of years you want to go on a day out?

That is precisely the kind of rail network which grew up in the period up to 1900. And a large number of lines were going out of business. Even Holman F Stephens struggled to make some work and that was with a far less stringent safety regime than you have today.

Your attitude demonstrates much of what is wrong with so many who commentate on these issues. A blind view which says people shouldn't use cars, so lets make a rail network to cover every single obscure journey viable regardless of the cost - both monetary and social - of such a crazy viewpoint.
 
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And last time I checked, Herts had a direct link to Birmingham (Watford and Hemel to New St).

Essex does from Stansted Airport. And East Essex wouldn't benefit from this.

Oh, by that logic, since Kings Sutton has a direct regular link to Oxford, Northamptonshire is well connected to Oxford. Doesn't work like that sorry. As for East Essex, LE Grey's suggestion of Braintree - Standsted would help.

Somebody else has pointed out Didcot's life is limited so that doesn't work.

That are plenty of more freight oppurtunities. The north end of the GWR Birmingham line is regarded as having little capacity spare for freight from the south coast to the north, running via Winslow & the West Coast involves circling around the west midlands and the WCML doesn't have huge capacity available either.

The A605 is totally inadequate for the role it performs. It is single carriageway with few if any safe passing places and has a large number of slow vehicles which cause tailbacks. It could and should be improved to dual carriageway linking the A1M at Peterborough to Thrapston

Or in other words, there is a large demand for traffic along this corridor which was served by rail. You do know that the A14 is built directly on top of the Kettering - Thrapston line and the A605 on the Peterborough line at Oundle?

How terrible - so the rail network should provide a direct link from Lutterworth to Long Marston (basically nowhere very important to nowhere very important) for the 1 day every couple of years you want to go on a day out?

I didn't for one moment suggest that there should be a direct link. You're the one making a strawman argument.

However for journeys above 10-15 miles, buses just aren't suitable (this journey was 3 buses outward including a NX coach and 4 buses on the return?. Lutterworth did once have services to Rugby, Rugby did have services to Leamington, Leamington does have services to Stratford, Long Marston did have services from Stratford. Catching a train to Rugby, then to Leamington then to Straford and then a bus to Long Marston isn't too much to ask for is it. Funnily enough all those routes have had serious proposals for re-opening.

Your attitude demonstrates much of what is wrong with so many who commentate on these issues. A blind view which says people shouldn't use cars, so lets make a rail network to cover every single obscure journey viable regardless of the cost - both monetary and social - of such a crazy viewpoint.

As for attitudes, your comment of...

Yes, I drive. But I have also used the train where it makes sense to my circumstances. And there are many circumstances where rail links, however good, are totally inappropriate to the journey I need to make

...reeks of "i'm alright Jack". The rail network serves your purpose, so s*d everybody else.

There are 10 million households without access to a car and many millions of people aren't legally allowed to drive (such as under 17s, epilepsy sufferers, the blind etc. etc.) so presumbably you think "tough luck" because you think we should be totally dependent on the car?
 

The Planner

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That are plenty of more freight oppurtunities. The north end of the GWR Birmingham line is regarded as having little capacity spare for freight from the south coast to the north, running via Winslow & the West Coast involves circling around the west midlands and the WCML doesn't have huge capacity available either.

There would be if certain loops were lengthened and the timetable was slightly more optimal. It is longer freight trains that are actually shooting themselves in the foot with the infrastructure we have.
 
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