EC Scottish trains plans

[b0b]

If they can't negotiate a simple extension to Glasgow, there is no chance of Aberdeen

why not? XC probably doesn't want Glasgow as theres zero revenue, but could there be a lot more from ORCATS if they get to send their HSTs up to Aberdeen instead?

 

[paul1609]

I'm a fairly regular traveller from London to inverkeithing and occasionally aberdeen.
It is frankly nonsense to argue that these trains are well loaded with through passengers. This market was lost by the mid 90s to air.

 

[rail-britain]

I would agree with that sentiment
I remember the 05:55 Aberdeen - Kings Cross, having worked it a few times
It was almost always empty until Dundee, then becoming a commuter service to Edinburgh
From Edinburgh it was quite busy
It was dropped due to the lack of through passengers, ScotRail retained the path which then connected into a 225 set

 

[MCR247]

Are the EC services to ABD extras, or do they run instead of the normal ScotRail runs?

 

[4SRKT]

Someone mentioned the Skipton upthread and frankly the sooner this embarrassment is dropped the better. When I travel to work by train I always use this train from Shipley into Leeds for the comfort and additional HST mileage, and nearly everyone gets off there. It's too early to provide any relief to the Airedale services: everyone on it could be accomodated on the 333 that leaves Shipley 5 minutes ahead of it. A total waste of everyone's time and money. The service from Skipton/Keighley/Shipley into Leeds is simply too frequent and simply connects too well for a daily train to be able to compete.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's yet another ECML capacity consultation out today on Network Rail's website. In section 2 they describe the May 2011 timetable as having XC trains extended from Edinburgh to Glasgow every two hours, and the one ECML from/to Glasgow in the peaks.

Maybe it's a done deal as far as NR are concerned - they usually know what's happening in my expereience...

ECML 2016 Capacity Review

 

[LE Greys]

I'm a fairly regular traveller from London to inverkeithing and occasionally aberdeen.
It is frankly nonsense to argue that these trains are well loaded with through passengers. This market was lost by the mid 90s to air.

Not the case with the 14:55/14:52/14:48 (annoying how it got earlier and earlier), that always got between 25% and 50% through travel either side of Waverley (at least on Fridays). The same with the 10:30 ex-King's Cross. The 05:55 happened to be in a commuter slot for Fife to Edinburgh, so it's only to be expected. It's also worth remembering that through passengers have the heaviest luggage loads, and with Aberdeen Airport being quite hard to access (1 or 2 buses per hour from the city) and Dundee Airport being the size of an aircraft carrier, it would mean a lot of luggage problems at Waverley, to say nothing of clogging up the Turbostar doorways (HSTs are difficult enough). Whoever came up with this notion has obviously never been north of Edinburgh himself (probably never north of Potter's Bar).

The high-end figures for passengers passing through Edinburgh are about the same as for Newcastle. Does that not mean that many trains should be cut back to Newcastle? Of course not. :roll:

 

[tbtc]

Are the EC services to ABD extras, or do they run instead of the normal ScotRail runs?

A bit of both

In a lot of the hours when the ECML service runs, Scotrail don't run (though the ECML service doesn't quite fit into the same path)

 

[4SRKT]

Not the case with the 14:55/14:52/14:48 (annoying how it got earlier and earlier), that always got between 25% and 50% through travel either side of Waverley (at least on Fridays). The same with the 10:30 ex-King's Cross. The 05:55 happened to be in a commuter slot for Fife to Edinburgh, so it's only to be expected. It's also worth remembering that through passengers have the heaviest luggage loads, and with Aberdeen Airport being quite hard to access (1 or 2 buses per hour from the city) and Dundee Airport being the size of an aircraft carrier, it would mean a lot of luggage problems at Waverley, to say nothing of clogging up the Turbostar doorways (HSTs are difficult enough). Whoever came up with this notion has obviously never been north of Edinburgh himself (probably never north of Potter's Bar).

The high-end figures for passengers passing through Edinburgh are about the same as for Newcastle. Does that not mean that many trains should be cut back to Newcastle? Of course not. :roll:

I've got a very interesting article from Modern Railways in about 1982 that deals with the internal use of HSTs in Scotland. Basically the argument was that the first inbound HST from the south got into Edinburgh only after quite a number of trains had departed for the south, so those sets at Craigentinny to form all these trains might as well be used on internal Scottish workings as much as possible before heading south, even if that 'only' meant commuters riding. Nobody seemed too bothered if the first Aberdeen > Edinburgh working mostly detrained at Edinburgh as what would the set be doing otherwise? Thus an HST provided a high capacity, high quality commuter working from Fife and Dundee, removing the need for a 27 + stock to be used at peaks only, and an additional Queen Street > Edinburgh working got slotted in, allowing the shuttle to be operated by 5 shove duff sets all day. Any through traffic from Aberdeen/Dundee/Fife/Glasgow/Falkirk to England was just gravy.

This seems to me to highlight two important points. (i) the better things that can happen when you think globally in a network, instead of pretending that 'ScotRail' and 'East Coast' are two separate things, and (ii) what an absolute farce and operationally restrictive nightmare the electrification of the ECML was and still is. I wonder what East Coast is doing with all the Electras that need to sit around to form all Edinburgh starters departing before the first inbound arrival from the Cross at 11:08. Not much I should think. This problem would be worse if it wasn't for the fact that the 10:20 Edinburgh departure started back at Aberdeen. An all electric ECML would require at least 7 sets at Craigentinny to work southbound before any incoming set from the south could be turned round for an 11:30 departure. The last few of these 7 would be pretty badly utilised.

 

[IanXC]

I think there could be something in what b0b says, we've discussed at length the reasons why XC might not want to take over Edinburgh-Glasgow, but ORCATS wise Inverness/Aberdeen must be a very different proposition. Couple of things I wonder though:

If the non electrified branches were taken off EC would they have enough 225 stock if all of their HSTs were taken away?

And if those 15 sets were given to XC to supplement their 5, could 20 HST sets run XCs core Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley (via Leeds and Newcastle) and with the extensions to Inverness and Aberdeen?

 

[Zoe]

And if those 15 sets were given to XC to supplement their 5, could 20 HST sets run XCs core Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley (via Leeds and Newcastle) and with the extensions to Inverness and Aberdeen?

XC don't even want use all the HSTs they have, preferring Voyagers. I doubt they'd want more.

 

[MCR247]

I think there could be something in what b0b says, we've discussed at length the reasons why XC might not want to take over Edinburgh-Glasgow, but ORCATS wise Inverness/Aberdeen must be a very different proposition. Couple of things I wonder though:

If the non electrified branches were taken off EC would they have enough 225 stock if all of their HSTs were taken away?

And if those 15 sets were given to XC to supplement their 5, could 20 HST sets run XCs core Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley (via Leeds and Newcastle) and with the extensions to Inverness and Aberdeen?

Some HSTs are used on completely under the wires diagrams...

 

[tbtc]

If the non electrified branches were taken off EC would they have enough 225 stock if all of their HSTs were taken away?

I don't know, but if East Coast gave up Skipton/ Harrogate (both get a token service, lots of local services are available, Harrogate is only a one-way service) and give up Hull (HT provide a decent service, though they may need a "peak" slot) and are giving up Glasgow during the day (freeing up one 225) then the maths would be interesting

 

[MCR247]

And it would be quite easy to transfer the HSTs to XC considering they have the same interior details like seating etc

 

[tbtc]

I've got a very interesting article from Modern Railways in about 1982 that deals with the internal use of HSTs in Scotland. Basically the argument was that the first inbound HST from the south got into Edinburgh only after quite a number of trains had departed for the south, so those sets at Craigentinny to form all these trains might as well be used on internal Scottish workings as much as possible before heading south, even if that 'only' meant commuters riding. Nobody seemed too bothered if the first Aberdeen > Edinburgh working mostly detrained at Edinburgh as what would the set be doing otherwise? Thus an HST provided a high capacity, high quality commuter working from Fife and Dundee, removing the need for a 27 + stock to be used at peaks only, and an additional Queen Street > Edinburgh working got slotted in, allowing the shuttle to be operated by 5 shove duff sets all day. Any through traffic from Aberdeen/Dundee/Fife/Glasgow/Falkirk to England was just gravy.

This seems to me to highlight two important points. (i) the better things that can happen when you think globally in a network, instead of pretending that 'ScotRail' and 'East Coast' are two separate things, and (ii) what an absolute farce and operationally restrictive nightmare the electrification of the ECML was and still is. I wonder what East Coast is doing with all the Electras that need to sit around to form all Edinburgh starters departing before the first inbound arrival from the Cross at 11:08. Not much I should think. This problem would be worse if it wasn't for the fact that the 10:20 Edinburgh departure started back at Aberdeen. An all electric ECML would require at least 7 sets at Craigentinny to work southbound before any incoming set from the south could be turned round for an 11:30 departure. The last few of these 7 would be pretty badly utilised.

True.

IIRC the Highland Cheiftan came about when Scotrail (in the BR days) saw that Intercity had a HST that didn't leave Edinburgh until mid morning, and one that was idle from half four in the afternoon.

So, why not start it from Inverness in the morning, and take another set to Inverness in the evening? Good use of stock at minimal cost to Intercity.

Even if not everyone on these trains uses them through to London, the capacity and links are very useful. You can imagine the reaction if they cut all London - Swansea services at Cardiff? A lot of people prefer the longer trains, and you'd struggle to fit them all onto a DMU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ETA: Bear in mind that until a couple of years ago the Aberdeen - Edinburgh line also had long distance services down the WCML too (when XC was Virgin run)

 

[rail-britain]

Are the EC services to ABD extras, or do they run instead of the normal ScotRail runs?

As above, it was a mix to cope with both demand and in attempt to keep a two hourly service, the same as Glasgow - Aberdeen
With sprinterisation this went out the window and caused some headaches
The solution was to ensure that the ScotRail service ran behind the intercity service
The only remaining services that were an issue were the two evening departures from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, the earlier one being from Plymouth
When the Plymouth was running late this meant ALL the passengers would attempt to board the only remaining service, fun!

I wonder what East Coast is doing with all the Electras that need to sit around to form all Edinburgh starters departing before the first inbound arrival from the Cross at 11:08. Not much I should think

The sets are used quite intensively
There are virtually no spares at Edinburgh, as they rolling stock from Craigentinny is used for the first few departures prior to 08:00
The remainders are then at Polmadie for the Glasgow departures
The first northbound arrives at Glasgow and from 10:00 onwards everything else is utilised as they arrive

IIRC the Highland Cheiftan came about when Scotrail (in the BR days) saw that Intercity had a HST that didn't leave Edinburgh until mid morning, and one that was idle from half four in the afternoon

I am not aware of that being the reason as there was already a Kings Cross - Inverness service
However, there were no line speed improvements on the route, like there were between Edinburgh - Aberdeen for HSTs

 

[4SRKT]

The sets are used quite intensively
There are virtually no spares at Edinburgh, as they rolling stock from Craigentinny is used for the first few departures prior to 08:00
The remainders are then at Polmadie for the Glasgow departures
The first northbound arrives at Glasgow and from 10:00 onwards everything else is utilised as they arrive

Yes, but as I understand from reading the thread, the all electric ECML wouldn't have [many] through workings from Glasgow, so there wouldn't be sets stabled at Polmadie. It's in this future scenario that I mean the utilisation would be poor.

 

[rail-britain]

It's in this future scenario that I mean the utilisation would be poor

It doesn't appear to be
At present three of the Edinburgh departures have to be HSTs in order to maintain the timetable
This reduces to just one, the number of 225s remains the same, simply moved from Polmadie to Craignetinny

 

[tbtc]

I am not aware of that being the reason as there was already a Kings Cross - Inverness service

There was a WCML service from London (via Mossend)

 

[4SRKT]

There was a WCML service from London (via Mossend)

The Clansman. This was diverted via Edinburgh and Carstairs a couple of years after the Chieftain started, and dropped a few years after that. A very poorly utilised set which didn't do anything before its departure from Inverness at 10:30, required so as to connect with the first arrival from Wick and Thurso at 10:10.

It doesn't appear to be
At present three of the Edinburgh departures have to be HSTs in order to maintain the timetable
This reduces to just one, the number of 225s remains the same, simply moved from Polmadie to Craignetinny

Aye but once they're moved to Craigentinny, they're idle until they're needed to operate from Edinburgh southbound. My point was more that electrification reduced the options for deploying Craigentinny-based sets within Scotland. Retrenchment from Glasgow will just exarcerbate the issue.

 

[rail-britain]

The Clansman. This was diverted via Edinburgh and Carstairs a couple of years after the Chieftain started, and dropped a few years after that. A very poorly utilised set which didn't do anything before its departure from Inverness at 10:30, required so as to connect with the first arrival from Wick and Thurso at 10:10

The Clansman started off as a joint Inverness / Glasgow - Euston service
However the Mark 3 coaches it used on the Inverness portions were required elsewhere and so was replaced by Mark 2 coaches and rerouting via Edinburgh (as it already stopped at Carstairs to split / join)
With sprinterisation the service ceased
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Aye but once they're moved to Craigentinny, they're idle until they're needed to operate from Edinburgh southbound. My point was more that electrification reduced the options for deploying Craigentinny-based sets within Scotland

It's the same at any depot at the beginning of any day, trains are sitting awaiting deployment
One could argue that the early morning HSTs are Bounds Green could used on commuter services to/from Peterborough prior to working their intercity rostered duty
It used to happen in the past, but now passenger charters apply so the cost / revenue risks have to be assessed
I would therefore agree it is better to have at least one set available until all the daily trains are up and running

 

[4SRKT]

The Clansman started off as a joint Inverness / Glasgow - Euston service
However the Mark 3 coaches it used on the Inverness portions were required elsewhere and so was replaced by Mark 2 coaches and rerouting via Edinburgh (as it already stopped at Carstairs to split / join)
With sprinterisation the service ceased

Did it? My 1985 timetable has it as a train going from Inverness to Euston without picking up any other portion. It doesn't even stop at Carstairs. By 1987 it was going via Edinburgh, and being combined at Carstairs with a Glasgow portion, making it in effect just an extension of a WCML Glasgow/Edinburgh working. Presumably the Chieftain was taking most of whatever London trade ther was with its shorter journey and more attractive arrival/departure times. IIRR there used to be some Scottish Region Mk IIs (PV) on the front of the Clansman at this stage from Inverness that were detached at Edinburgh before the WCML set was hauled down to Carstairs, meaning it was a long train for most of its duration.

t's the same at any depot at the beginning of any day, trains are sitting awaiting deployment
One could argue that the early morning HSTs are Bounds Green could used on commuter services to/from Peterborough prior to working their intercity rostered duty

Indeed. And I would argue exactly that.

It used to happen in the past, but now passenger charters apply so the cost / revenue risks have to be assessed
I would therefore agree it is better to have at least one set available until all the daily trains are up and running

One maybe, but not half a dozen. It's a very expensive insurance policy. Anyway, that's not the main reason it doesn't happen. It's rather because East Coast don't/can't operate commuter services, and the structure forces sets to be idle rather than turning wheels more intensively.

I've nothing against privatisation per se, but the way it has been done is just crazy. One of the joys of BR was it was a true network, and many interesting moves were done that both improved services and saved £££. All but impossible across TOCs now though

 

[silentone]

From memory I think there are only 4 EC sets at Craigentinny overnight. One for each 0550, 0600, 0700 & 0930 departures. This is only increased at weekends when the depot is stretched because of the extra sets.

At the Eureka timetable change the plan is still to keep a set/s stabled over in Glasgow overnight as a result of the capacity issues at Craigentinny and a lack of pathing available back to Edinburgh.

Only 2 of the Edinburgh services are normally HST's, 0700 & 0930. The 0600 is booked as a MK4 set however with the current shortage of sets this service is being given a HST regularly.

What's being suggested are valid points, but using these sets before their current deployment could mean time is cut short for carrying out cleaning/maintenance etc. Although it's certain not all of this takes place overnight but this is largely down to what has happened in the past few years - maintenance and overnight servicing is become a greater priority.

Just to add: Capacity at Kings Cross is limited, and bringing these additional sets into service earlier than normal as is being suggested would require more ECS movements. Anyone who has been to Kings Cross recently will be fully aware of the problems currently being experienced, particularly with the disruption of the past few days.

 

[ObservationCar]

I will kick up sweet hadies if the Cheiftain gets stopped. Totally essential for everyone living at the North End, The train is half full most mornings leaving Inverness, imagine trying to pack them into a wee 158bus thing. Its only fair that we should get a spacious, comfortable, quiet train, with facilities such as hot food and wi-fi. Even if not used to travel from INV-KGX, it is still very useful for Highlanders travelling to anywhere in England, as the stops at Newcastle and York provide a lot of onward travel options.

There is a steady flow of London traffic to the north aswell on these services, as there are the la-de-daas going to Gleneagles or Pitlochry, and the Skiers going to Aviemore, (try getting all that kit on a plane!).

A lot of business users would just use the car if there was no HST, as they dont want to travel in Turbostar Class. The Inverness timings give a good days business in Edinburgh.

Also provides a bit of competition with ScotRail as EC's prices can be very competitive.

DONT DARE TAKE AWAY OUR CHEIFTAIN

 

[MCR247]

There is a steady flow of London traffic to the north aswell on these services, as there are the la-de-daas going to Gleneagles or Pitlochry, and the Skiers going to Aviemore, (try getting all that kit on a plane!).

Especially if they flew ryanair...!

 

[rail-britain]

Did it? My 1985 timetable has it as a train going from Inverness to Euston without picking up any other portion. It doesn't even stop at Carstairs

I've posted full details before (search Mark 3B BFO)
The Inverness was routed via Mossend, running non-stop from Stirling to Carstairs
This joined with the 15:10 Glasgow - Euston which was just three TSO - RFM-BFO at Carstairs
Almost simialr northbound, such that the Glasgow portion arrived at about 14:20

 

[EltonRoad]

If I recall, in its latter days, the Clansman ran from Euston via Brum and Wolves to pick up only, then up the WCML to Edinburgh then to Inverness. It was often a motley rake of coaches with a Mark I buffet car where you could plonk down on a bench opposite the buffet counter. Think there was Motorail on it as well, Euston to Edinburgh? Or maybe Inverness.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

dont dare take away our cheiftain

agreed

+1

 

[Aictos]

Also agreed, it's my preferred way of getting up North across the border to Scotland.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Im taking the Chieftain in December for the first time, Inverness to Kings Cross, and i'll be gutted if it goes, for the main reason that its the only service you can see a good portion of the Highland Mainline in daylight and not having to be crammed into a unit!