EC Scottish trains plans

[route:oxford]

Electrification does offer increased efficiency over diesel operation, as having the energy generated at one central power station is more efficient than generating power onboard each individual train (granted there are energy losses along the course of the route from power station to railway vehicle in the wires and transformers). And the use of electrification allows the gradual conversion of the power source to renewable energy as time goes on. Plus it offers better acceleration and allows energy to be saved through regenerative braking.

Don't forget, once you get north of Dunblane - you enter the "Hydro-board" region. A significant proportion of electricty is generated by hydro-electric - you won't get much "greener" (or "whiter") public transport in the UK if the network is wired up.

 

[silentone]

Just to point out the rumours regarding the removal of services to Inverness & Aberdeen has nothing to do with East Coast, they will effectively be given no choice in the matter. Passenger numbers on trains to these destinations remains high.

On the subject of electrifcation, the cost of electrifying the route to Aberdeen has in the past been deemed too costly. Starting at Haymarket tunnel, which doesn't provide enough clearance and requires ground level to be lowered (causing major disruption), almost every bridge & tunnel on the route doesn't have enough clearance. There are also engineering challenges presented by the Forth Rail & Tay Rail bridges along with the crossing at Montrose. There are 2 tunnels at Cupar which only now provide minimal clearance!

 

[rail-britain]

On the subject of electrifcation, the cost of electrifying the route to Aberdeen has in the past been deemed too costly. Starting at Haymarket tunnel, which doesn't provide enough clearance and requires ground level to be lowered (causing major disruption)

The electrification of the northside Haymarket tunnel will been completed as part of EGIP
As mentioned previously, there are no plans to electrify via Fife, the electrification under discussion at Transport Scotland is via Perth and Dundee

 

[scotsman]

I think there are certain lines that won't ever see Electrification. The West Highland Line comes to mind.

I'd also like to think there won't be wires to Inverness simply because the Highland Main Line passes through some incredible scenery, and I personally find it harder to enjoy such views if there's giant metal poles in the way!

Personally I enjoy listening to the engine under my feet struggle up Drumochter and then to go near enough silent as it coasts for the next 16 miles

 

[CallySleeperKid]

I think there are certain lines that won't ever see Electrification. The West Highland Line comes to mind.

I'd also like to think there won't be wires to Inverness simply because the Highland Main Line passes through some incredible scenery, and I personally find it harder to enjoy such views if there's giant metal poles in the way!

Totally agree, its hard enough as it is getting decent pictures in the early morning from the windo of the Caledonian Sleeper, without having poles and wires making it even harder! I would love a regular loco hauled service (except from the sleeper) to run up the Highland Mainline, but we can only dream.

 

[paul1609]

Just to point out the rumours regarding the removal of services to Inverness & Aberdeen has nothing to do with East Coast, they will effectively be given no choice in the matter. Passenger numbers on trains to these destinations remains high.

On the subject of electrifcation, the cost of electrifying the route to Aberdeen has in the past been deemed too costly. Starting at Haymarket tunnel, which doesn't provide enough clearance and requires ground level to be lowered (causing major disruption), almost every bridge & tunnel on the route doesn't have enough clearance. There are also engineering challenges presented by the Forth Rail & Tay Rail bridges along with the crossing at Montrose. There are 2 tunnels at Cupar which only now provide minimal clearance!

I cant really comment on the Inverness service but Ive been a fairly regular user of the Aberdeen services for a number of years and I have to say that I dont feel that the current through passengers justify the retention of this service. My experience is that through Edinburgh passengers are generally pretty low 10 to 20 % and that very few of these originate from south of York. What through passengers there are could be amply served by an enhanced cross country service.

North of Dundee the London services mostly carry fresh air, 1st passengers are non existant and loadings in standard very low certainly all my experiences this year could have been comfortably accomodated in a 2 car 158 if not a 153.

 

[LE Greys]

I cant really comment on the Inverness service but Ive been a fairly regular user of the Aberdeen services for a number of years and I have to say that I dont feel that the current through passengers justify the retention of this service. My experience is that through Edinburgh passengers are generally pretty low 10 to 20 % and that very few of these originate from south of York. What through passengers there are could be amply served by an enhanced cross country service.

North of Dundee the London services mostly carry fresh air, 1st passengers are non existant and loadings in standard very low certainly all my experiences this year could have been comfortably accomodated in a 2 car 158 if not a 153.

Which service do you use? In my experience (usually the Northern Lights) it's pretty much solid as far as Waverley, swaps about 50% there, is pretty much solid as far as Dundee, and comfortable from there on. Arriving at Aberdeen usually produces about the same number of passengers as a typical service arriving at Penzance, and there's no sign of those being cancelled. I can understand numbers being a bit low on the 14:00 and 16:00, they arrive at 21:12 and 23:07 respectively. The first catches the peak from Edinburgh and has the 09:25 PLY-ABD in front of it, effectively an advertised relief, which must distort the figures somewhat. In fact, most of the London services have effective advertised reliefs in front of them, the 10:00 EDB-DEE, the 14:30 EDB-ABD, the 16:11 GQS-INV (from Stirling) the 09:25 PLY-ABD and the 11:25 PLY-DEE. Going the other way, the 09:08 DYC-GQS (as far as Dundee) and the 14:39 ABD-GQS (as far as Dundee), so up trains get less relief than down. Interestingly, the 08:20 ABD-PNZ is very close after the 07:52 ABD-KGX, so the HST seems to act as a relief for the Voyager. Presumably, this catches the local passengers and reduces dwell times for the expresses, although still have to pick up through passengers of course. That actually looks like very good timetable planning, but it does distort the figures quite a bit.

If this becomes closer to being official, I would like to get a petition going, and will try to get a mention of it in the Press and Journal. The through train market may be small, but there will be an outcry in Aberdeen if they are cut.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

If this becomes closer to being official, I would like to get a petition going, and will try to get a mention of it in the Press and Journal. The through train market may be small, but there will be an outcry in Aberdeen if they are cut.

Have a look here, there is a link on the right to 'Save The Chieftain' http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/

 

[silentone]

The electrification of the northside Haymarket tunnel will been completed as part of EGIP
As mentioned previously, there are no plans to electrify via Fife, the electrification under discussion at Transport Scotland is via Perth and Dundee

The electrification of the tunnel is due to be completed in 2011 and the challenges are just some of what is faced further north.

I am aware there are no plans to electrify anything else, I am merely pointing out as posters have said the route to Aberdeen could be electrified, however this has been looked at in the past and the engineering challenges and cost of it far outweight the benefits meaning it's unlikely to happen.

 

[tbtc]

North of Dundee the London services mostly carry fresh air, 1st passengers are non existant and loadings in standard very low certainly all my experiences this year could have been comfortably accomodated in a 2 car 158 if not a 153.

We must be on different trains!

 

[rail-britain]

North of Dundee the London services mostly carry fresh air, 1st passengers are non existant and loadings in standard very low certainly all my experiences this year could have been comfortably accomodated in a 2 car 158 if not a 153

I would have to agree, to a certain amount
It depends on which service and which day
Compare a Monday northbound (busy) with a Thursday northbound (empty)
Equally, a Monday southbound (empty) with a Wednesday southbound (busy)

However, getting all those passengers into a 153, not likely!

 

[fhs man 2]

i know what would solve the problem why dont they start to make the edinburgh to aberdeen tracks eletric there going to need to do it sometime

 

[rail-britain]

i know what would solve the problem why dont they start to make the edinburgh to aberdeen tracks eletric there going to need to do it sometime

There is only so much money in the pot, with so many other "outstanding" transport schemes also seeking the funding

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I've been on the Chieftan to Aviemore several times, and its always been well loaded. SUnday mornings especialy, with even 1st class full!

 

[LE Greys]

I've been on the Chieftan to Aviemore several times, and its always been well loaded. SUnday mornings especialy, with even 1st class full!

The same is true of the Lights on Sunday. Quite a lot of that is from St Andrew's and Aberdeen students coming back after [getting their washing done] going home to see their families.

 

[dalmahoyhill]

from transport scotlands 25 year plan the economics of electrification to aberdeen and inverness dont make financial sense. that seems logical to me. As another poster said it would involve the forth and tay bridges, dundee and kinghorn tunnels, all very expensive. it did have suggestions to improve the services and they seemed sensible to me. one was to use voyagers instead of turbostars. yes they are horrible but it knocked 30mins off the inverness service.
the long term plan was more passing loops on inverness line and additional dual tracking on flatter sections.
the genius idea was building a line direct from invekeithing, following the m9 and joining the fife circle at halbeath with a park and ride as the burntisland line is so slow. then some upgrading to improve line speeds on the fife circle. its a bit of a climb so i dont know what the gradient would be. also getting rid of ladybank curve would seem an easy win.

The intercity express programme is rubbish, this hybrid option is ridiculous, better to use HSTs for the time being or use 66s to haul electric stock onto aberdeen and inverness.

lastly one poster said he was going to miss the East Coast services onto glasgow. i use them sometimes between edinburgh and glasgow, great commute but there are only me and 5 other people on the train. the patronage figures dont add up i would guess.

 

[silentone]

The IEP hybrid option seems to have evolved and more should be known shortly. It now seems that most of the IEP ordered will be bi-mode but with under floor engines rather than a generator or engine at one end of the train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

from transport scotlands 25 year plan
. . . .
the long term plan was more passing loops on inverness line and additional dual tracking on flatter sections.

Some of these interventions would provide a variety of benefits, and at very much lower cost that full-scale electrification.
Dualling the Highland Mainline between Inverness and Moy (over the Culloden viaduct) might not improve journey times but would increase capacity and greatly improve resilience to disruption.
Linespeed improvements in several areas between Falkirk and Stirling, Inverkeithing and Perth, and then between Stirling and Perth would all beneift network capacity and journey times.

Returning to topic, the EC Inverness services are so consistently busy that I've often felt there would be a good argument for 2 services per day (one of which could actually arrive & depart at Inverness during daylight!).
All slight improvements as above would surely have a benefit in attracting more passengers - there has to be 30 mins to be gained easily between Edinburgh and Perth. There's a lot more than just a sentimental argument for keeping the Inverness and Aberdeen services runnning, they are valuable links for passengers travelling between a complex mix of origins and destinations - it can be interesting to chat to passengers to realise how many journeys are made possible by these EC journeys, and which might become much less simple (as well as less comfortable!) using local stoppers and more changes.

 

[IanXC]

If the North of Edinburgh services were given to Scotrail and/or CrossCountry, with the HSTs, how many sets would East Coast be short by?

Would it be possible for the Pretendilino to be passed to East Coast when the new Pendilions arrive, and could any more Pretendilino sets be created - without knowing too much about the diagrams maybe for Newark/York/Leeds services? Would these be able to cover for the "diesel under the wires" digrams?

 

[MCR247]

There are no spare MK3 sets left sitting doing nothing that could make a train up, unless you want a sleeper train with a buffet

 

[IanXC]

Surely at least 2 more sets could be found? (Heath Warning: Wikipedia numbers) If the EC HSTs were/are all 7 coach, then thats 12 spares, plus 5 spares already at XC, 17 (+2 buffets?) sounds fine for 2 8 coach Pretendilinos?

 

[ainsworth74]

Firstly EC HSTs are 9 coaches long, secondly HST trailer vehicles can't be hauled by other locomotives (in service) without modifications to the power supply.

 

[tbtc]

the EC Inverness services are so consistently busy that I've often felt there would be a good argument for 2 services per day (one of which could actually arrive & depart at Inverness during daylight!)

They are busy, but are they busy with passengers from London to the Highlands?

The times are good between Edinburgh and Inverness (breakfast time from Inverness, teatime from Edinburgh), of course.

Similarly, the Aberdeen - Cornwall service is full at Birmingham, but that's not passengers from one end to the other

 

[142094]

They are busy, but are they busy with passengers from London to the Highlands?

When I did INV - KGX last year I was suprised by how many people were travelling the full distance, plus quite a few got on at the smaller stations between INV and Falkirk.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Another problem with using 90s is that they are obsessed with 125mph running these days, and 90s can only do 110mph. Never seemed to be a problem back when a 90 did a Leeds diagram with Mk4s, but that was all stops (Intercity wise) and 90s will out accelerate 91s from a stand (more power and lower gearing) so the loss of 15mph on the longer sections is not the end of the world. I actually wonder how much time a 2+9 HST spends above 110mph on an all stops Leeds run.

 

[Failed Unit]

They are busy, but are they busy with passengers from London to the Highlands?

The times are good between Edinburgh and Inverness (breakfast time from Inverness, teatime from Edinburgh), of course.

Similarly, the Aberdeen - Cornwall service is full at Birmingham, but that's not passengers from one end to the other

As other posters have said the Inverness route has a healthy loading to London from other stations such as Aviemore. Even Perth and Stirling passengers load well to avoid the change of trains. Aberdeen services have good flows to place like Newcastle even if passengers don't go all the way to London.

 

[EltonRoad]

I travelled on the Chieftain last week from Peterborough to Kingussie - my first class carriage was nearly full for the duration of the journey and walking down the platform at Kingussie the rest of the train looked pretty full.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

They are busy, but are they busy with passengers from London to the Highlands?

The times are good between Edinburgh and Inverness (breakfast time from Inverness, teatime from Edinburgh), of course.

Similarly, the Aberdeen - Cornwall service is full at Birmingham, but that's not passengers from one end to the other

Not entirely, of course. I did go on (in the same post) to say "they are valuable links for passengers travelling between a complex mix of origins and destinations". Its my experience that many of those who may alight at Kings Cross are merely connecting to onward services, to the home counties or further out.
And the concern was, that those passengers who already face at least one change, and a cross-London connection, are less likely to travel if there is yet another change in Edinburgh.
To be faair, I also come across passengers who have made a connecting journey to join the Cheiftan on the Scottish side of their journey, possible with another connection in England.
It does, as I said, offer a complex mix of journeys, and at 8hours end to end, you'd expect that.

 

[Invincibles]

Would it really cause most users a problem if the Chieftain was to become part of Crosscountry and so only be available as far south as York/Doncaster.

As far as I can see the only real obstacles to the removal of HSTs from the east coast fleet are the Lincoln / Hull / Skipton (maybe 225 soon) and Harrogate services. If it was possible to run these trains with voyagers (increasing provision from Leeds to London using 225s) then the ECML could run as a fleet of 225s and 5 car voyagers.

The spare HSTs would then go to Crosscountry to provide a 2 hourly Scotland to Plymouth service (Aberdeen / Dundee / Inverness) with some extras used to run peak services around Edinburgh. I am not totally sure how the diagrams would work but surely it would improve things on the Crosscountry core as well.

Sorry to those that would lose direct London trains (or direct HST services be replaced by voyagers) but Virgin seem to cope with voyagers going "off route" on the WCML and I am sure a 5 car would be enough.

 

[route:oxford]

The genius idea was building a line direct from invekeithing, following the m9 and joining the fife circle at halbeath with a park and ride as the burntisland line is so slow. then some upgrading to improve line speeds on the fife circle. its a bit of a climb so i dont know what the gradient would be. also getting rid of ladybank curve would seem an easy win.

That's not such a bad idea, particularily if there were a "triangle" junction built...

In conjuction with the aspirational upgrade of the Alloa to Dunfermline line via Kindacardine, it would allow services to operate between Glasgow Queen Street - Stirling - Alloa - Dunfermline - Inverkeithing Parkway - Gogarburn Tram Interchange (haha) - Edinburgh