Economic Case for the Far North Line

[HSTEd]

I don't know if you've travelled on the Far North Line, but most services are well loaded. Most passengers are not tourists. The 10:41 Inverness to Wick with the 16:00 return is the most popular for those doing the tourist run, and one doesn't usually get more than 2 or 3 groups out of a well-loaded 158.

Well loading a handful of two car units a day is not really a great achievement or a resounding endorsement of the usefulness of the service.

As stated before, the bus is faster Inverness to Wick, but not Inverness to Thurso. The bus does not serve everywhere that the train does.

Inverness to THurso by rail takes variously 3hr38-4h00 depending on the service.
The X99 bus Inverness to Thurso takes approximately 3hr28 according to the published timetable.

And no, the bus doesn't serve everywhere the railway does, the bus serves place where people actually live.
(There is even a bus service in Lairg that could easily be extended to Tain to connect with the X99)

Coaches are not objectively slow. It can't be surprising that a detour of an hour inland (Tain to Golspie) by the railway as compared to the newer road route in addition to the 30 minutes detour via Thurso of Wick passengers leaves the coach with a significant advantage.

Irrelevant, the stations that generate substantial quantities of traffic are ones served both by the bus and the railway.
Just because the railway has a terrible routing should not be counted against the bus - because there is not going to be money available to correct the mistake of the railway's builders.

This would significantly add to the congestion of the road. Which is not a good idea. New buses would have to be introduced to places that see their railway service cut which do not currently have bus services (see the entire section from Helsmdale to Halkirk). The road infrastructure does not exist in that area. So money would need to be spent on upgrading roads and building new ones. The small subsidy does not cover this.

Between Helmsdale and Georgemas Junction (the nearest station to Halkirk) the stations are:
Kildonan - 76 passengers
Kinbrace - 464 passengers
Forsinard - 2160 passengers
Altnabraec - 356 passengers
Scotscalder - 200 passengers.

So apart from possibly Forsinard the stations will produce one or so passengers per day on average.
Even Forsinard only manages a half dozen.

And there is a road between Helmsdale and Forsinard so if the loss of Forsinard is such a disaster you could have an Optare Solo run up and down between those villages and connect to the X99.

But even so when you can only produce 3200 passengers per year over many miles of track, there is something of an issue.

As stated before, end-to-end journeys are not and should not be the only consideration. There is significant flow from Tain to Inverness, and patronage justifies an increase in a service from there. An annual patronage of over 30k per year with gaps in service of over 3 and a half hours is pants.

Buses cover Tain to Inverness 25 minutes faster than the railway can.
50 minutes versus ~76.

EDIT:

To make it clear, I am not anti railway as such.
But as it stands the railway really doesn't justify the resources required to keep it open.

It needs a journey time that is easily faster than the coach to be worthwhile at all.

Sub 3 hours or we might as well go home.
Perhaps tilting units or somesuch, and closing or gating every level crossing.

 

[Steamysandy]

What I find amusing is that HSTed is in effect arguing for the closure of an existing railway line in the far north of Scotland ,the adjacent thread is arguing for reopening a line in West Wales which was closed and lifted fifty years ago!
What would the usage figures on that line be?
In passing I know of one person who travels regularly by train from Fearn to Inverness .
So where would the resources to replace the railway come from?
Or is the alternative a ferry from Wick to Aberdeen?No expenditure on roads that way!

 

[Esker-pades]

Well loading a handful of two car units a day is not really a great achievement or a resounding endorsement of the usefulness of the service.

And neither is loading a couple of coaches a day so by that rationale the whole lot should be cut.

A service is provided to people who need it. People use the train over the bus. One would have to significantly increase the bus service. 7 2 car 158s would have to translate into at least 14 extra bus services. Will government or Stagecoach provide that kind of increase? Absolutely not.

A quibble over a few minutes is fairly pointless. It is possible with current infrastructure and rolling stock to get times down to below the 3h28m (Inverness to Thurso).

Altnabreac is not exactly on the road network, and neither is Scotscalder without a big detour (round 3 sides of a rectangle rather than 1 short side).

3200 is a lot of journeys to inconvenience.

Given the desire of the people who live on the line to have faster journeys by train, then it seems that the local population does not want a vital railway link cut.

Given the lack of desireby any government or private entity to provide any additional transport in any rural or semi-rural areas, any bus increases won't happen.

People actually live around all stations on the Far North Line. The "oh, but it's not many so it doesn't matter" argument ignores the point of public transportation in the first place. Local residents consistently express the need for the railway, thus, it is useful in some regard to the people it is built to serve.

What I find amusing is that HSTed is in effect arguing for the closure of an existing railway line in the far north of Scotland ,the adjacent thread is arguing for reopening a line in West Wales which was closed and lifted fifty years ago!
What would the usage figures on that line be?
In passing I know of one person who travels regularly by train from Fearn to Inverness .
So where would the resources to replace the railway come from?
Or is the alternative a ferry from Wick to Aberdeen?No expenditure on roads that way!

And this is where the money saved by any closure goes out of the window.

 

[Steamysandy]

And neither is loading a couple of coaches a day so by that rationale the whole lot should be cut.

A service is provided to people who need it. People use the train over the bus. One would have to significantly increase the bus service. 7 2 car 158s would have to translate into at least 14 extra bus services. Will government or Stagecoach provide that kind of increase? Absolutely not.

A quibble over a few minutes is fairly pointless. It is possible with current infrastructure and rolling stock to get times down to below the 3h28m (Inverness to Thurso).

Altnabreac is not exactly on the road network, and neither is Scotscalder without a big detour (round 3 sides of a rectangle rather than 1 short side).

3200 is a lot of journeys to inconvenience.

Given the desire of the people who live on the line to have faster journeys by train, then it seems that the local population does not want a vital railway link cut.

Given the lack of desireby any government or private entity to provide any additional transport in any rural or semi-rural areas, any bus increases won't happen.

People actually live around all stations on the Far North Line. The "oh, but it's not many so it doesn't matter" argument ignores the point of public transportation in the first place. Local residents consistently express the need for the railway, thus, it is useful in some regard to the people it is built to serve.



And this is where the money saved by any closure goes out of the window.

j

From what I hear , Stagecoach are on as sticky a wicket up there as they were on Virgin East Coast.I do understand a review of the services is underway.But as it stands you have an all-day service between Inverness and Wick/Thurso by train as opposed to a couple of buses each way which makes an out and back nearly impossible ( and you have to change buses en route - 14-30 Inverness to Scrabster - change at Dunbeath! (8 June 2018)

 

[najaB]

because there is not going to be money available to correct the mistake of the railway's builders.

Exactly what 'mistake' was that?

It needs a journey time that is easily faster than the coach to be worthwhile at all.

Journey time is only one measure of the utility of a passenger service, rail or otherwise.

 

[HSTEd]

Exactly what 'mistake' was that?

Going on a tour if the interior of Sutherland, which has rendered the railway unable to serve its primary traffic centres efficiently

 

[Steamysandy]

Going on a tour if the interior of Sutherland, which has rendered the railway unable to serve its primary traffic centres efficiently

Part of the reason for that was that the Duke of Sutherland was paying for it being built and he wanted to serve his estates.
Further North the Ord of Caithness was deemed all but impassable because of the Cliffs hence the routing via Forsinard If HSTed had looked into the background to the building of the line he would have had a better understanding of the background to the routing of the line
Incidentally a line was built south from Wick to Lybster but it closed in 1944 although the remains were still clearly visible from the adjacent road in 1999

 

[najaB]

Going on a tour if the interior of Sutherland, which has rendered the railway unable to serve its primary traffic centres efficiently

That response makes me think that, perhaps, you aren't aware of the history of what we now call the Far North Line...

 

[Kite159]

Since when have Highland halts had PISs? Some don't even have fences. I can't speak for Kildonan as I've not yet been there (that's happening in September), but from what I've seen passing it 4 times and comparing to other halts I've spent time at (Duirinish, Scotscalder), the only things there are help points, a shelter and an information board. I was at Duirinish when the person from Transport Scotland came round in a van to make sure everything was in order. I doubt they employ more than one person to go around all the stations north of Inverness.

Hasn't got PIS (I think there is a couple stations further south which has got "next train" displays, they don't always work well) it has got a help point though, and also a fence, some pictures taken last May below





----
And of the passenger information display at Tain for example. I believe most of the stations in Wales have PIS though:
Station sign at Tain

A perfect example of a station if you visit normally there is no sound but the wind

 

[najaB]

Hasn't got PIS, it has got a help point though, and also a fence, some pictures taken last May below

Thanks for the pictures. I was wrong about the PIS but a help point, lighting, smart card validator and CCTV all require comms, power and maintenance.

 

[HSTEd]

That response makes me think that, perhaps, you aren't aware of the history of what we now call the Far North Line...

I mean it turns out to be a mistake in hindsight.

It doesn't matter why it was built that way, all that matters is that it now turns out to be a suboptimal routing.

 

[InOban]

Oddly enough, the bus timetable is arranged around the travel needs of the residents, who will wish to travel to Inverness in the morning, say for a hospital appointment or other business matter or even for shopping, and return North in the evening (last bus at 17.45). Not around the needs of seasonal tourists.

Btw, no-one suggests curtailing services south of the invergordon area. Indeed the southern section deserves major investment so that rail becomes a genuine option for the increasing number of commuters into Inverness.

 

[Steamysandy]

There was another reason and that was to serve the extreme North West including Ullapool.
Although plans were drawn up,a line to Ullapool was never built .In the event Garve on the Kyle line came to be looked on as the jumping off point for Ullapool
Landowners played a large part in the routing of railways.Not too far away Strathpeffer was bypassed to placate a landowner
His successor decided he wanted a line into the town so a short-lived branch was built leaving the Kyle line with a steep climb to Ravens Rock

 

[Steamysandy]

Oddly enough, the bus timetable is arranged around the travel needs of the residents, who will wish to travel to Inverness in the morning, say for a hospital appointment or other business matter or even for shopping, and return North in the evening (last bus at 17.45). Not around the needs of seasonal tourists.

Btw, no-one suggests curtailing services south of the invergordon area. Indeed the southern section deserves major investment so that rail becomes a genuine option for the increasing number of commuters into Inverness.

It's still a bloody poor service which looks like two end areas and a great big hole in the middle.The quality of the vehicles used was not praised up by my contact

 

[Highlandspring]

Those CIS screens on the Far North line were provided by HiTrans rather than Network Rail or ScotRail. The quality of the information they display is rather suspect too.

 

[Killingworth]

Perhaps a look at the bus routes in the far north may help understanding; https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/North Scotland/Highlands/TT Caithness 5 Feb updated 16 Apr.pdf

I have been there to sample the buses, but quite a few years ago. You really do need to know the timetables or you'll have to wait in some very draughty places for a very long time. There'll quite likely be nobody else around to ask if this is the right place for your bus to stop.

The train may take longer than going by road, but it's more comfortable. And again the train timetables; https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de...ad_ct/sr1805_a7_12274_north_highlands_web.pdf

 

[alex17595]

The train service is much cheaper than the bus for locals.

Bus fare
Single: 21.00
Day Return: 29.15
Period Return: 29.30

Train fare with highland railcard (£9 for a year)
Anytime Rtn: 18.30
Off peak rtn: 16.85
Day return: 14.05

Price of season tickets are also halved.
Also Kids are £2 flat fare with the railcard.

 

[Esker-pades]

The train service is much cheaper than the bus for locals.

Bus fare
Single: 21.00
Day Return: 29.15
Period Return: 29.30

Train fare with highland railcard (£9 for a year)
Anytime Rtn: 18.30
Off peak rtn: 16.85
Day return: 14.05

Price of season tickets are also halved.
Also Kids are £2 flat fare with the railcard.

Plus, advance fares. I've got Edinburgh to Kildonan return advance for £25 with my railcard (not Highland).

 

[InOban]

Remember that many of the passengers will have bus passes and won't pay for the bus.

 

[alex17595]

Remember that many of the passengers will have bus passes and won't pay for the bus.

Are they only valid after 0930 or is there different rules in the north due to the irregularity of some buses?

 

[InOban]

The Scottish bus pass is available all day, and on coaches as well as local buses. You could travel from Thurso to Carlisle for £0.00.

 

[Steamysandy]

My Orcadian friend came down recently using the bus throughout on her OAP pass.I paid £4 to get her reserved seats on the way back and I believe she may have had to pay for the ferry from Stromness t o Scrabster.Scrabster to Longniddry as follows
Scrabster to Inverness --- Stagecoach
Inverness to Edinburgh--- City link ( Partly owned by Stagecoach)
Edinburgh to Longniddry--- East Coast Buses.
Need I say more!

 

[backontrack]

I think some posters here need to consider the points raised in the thread on What are the UK railways for?

Indeed.

HSTEd's solo crusade to get this line closed is absolutely laughable, and is based on a poor knowledge of the area and of the real environment as well as the line's patronage, which was growing steadily before reliability issues and incidents of short-staffing at Wick depot began to mount up.

I'm surprised by how often this sort of discussion happens on a forum I assumed was for railway enthusiasts. Why be so adamant that lines need to be closed just because you personally will never want to use them? What actual benefit would closing this one give anyone?

Badly quoting Oscar Wilde, some people really do know the price of everything and the value of nothing it seems.

Edited.

There is still so much potential for the Far North Line...a small amount of investment will massively help that to be realised. Don't forget how successful the North Coast 500 has been in bringing tourism to the area.

There was another reason and that was to serve the extreme North West including Ullapool.
Although plans were drawn up,a line to Ullapool was never built .In the event Garve on the Kyle line came to be looked on as the jumping off point for Ullapool
Landowners played a large part in the routing of railways.Not too far away Strathpeffer was bypassed to placate a landowner
His successor decided he wanted a line into the town so a short-lived branch was built leaving the Kyle line with a steep climb to Ravens Rock

Historically, there were plans for branches from Inverness to Lochend, Conon Bridge to Cromarty (which was constructed in part before WWI halted proceedings), Achnasheen to Gairloch, Garve to Ullapool, Fearn to Portmahomack, Culrain to Lochinver, Lairg to Laxford Bridge, Forsinard to Portskerra, and from Thurso to Scrabster and to Gills Bay. In addition, the Black Isle Branch was originally meant to continue on to Rosemarkie and the Lybster Light Railway was intended to extend to Dunbeath.

It's a shame about the Scrabster branch never opening! As for the others, I can only really imagine the Ullapool line staying open today if it were built - and, if it did, the Kyle line would probably have closed instead.

It's still a bloody poor service which looks like two end areas and a great big hole in the middle.The quality of the vehicles used was not praised up by my contact

The X99 (Inverness-Wick-Thurso-Scrabster) was cut massively by Stagecoach fairly recently, from roughly two-hourly during the day to two buses a day in each direction.

That response makes me think that, perhaps, you aren't aware of the history of what we now call the Far North Line...

Agreed. HSTEd doesn't seem to be able to grasp that the service offers a crucial lifeline for its users. There is absolutely NOTHING to be gained from closing the Far North Line (and it would be toxic politically, too); you'll just spend any closure savings on replacing the service. It is needed for passengers and industry alike. It is also worth mentioning that the bus, even if it were half-an-hour quicker, would still almost certainly be less popular than the train - which is why there are now only two buses a day in each direction all the way up the coast, 'Bustitution' would not be a worthy cause of action

Closing some of the intermediate stations, however, would be a worthy course of action.

What would be wisest, of course, would be to build the Lentran Long Loop, adding loops at Evanton and Kinbrace, building the Georgemas Chord and opening stations at Evanton and Halkirk. Then you've got yourself a proper railway line. And it'd be nice to get the Dornoch Rail Link built and opened if the adequate funds were there.

But yes, the Lentran Loop is the priority. In fact, speaking with my FoFNL hat on:

The Lentran Loop Line MUST BE BUILT.

(and there's a petition for it here: v v v v v v v)

 

[Class 170101]

Who knows, one day we might see a heritage HST with sleeper carriages running a weekly Wick to Penzance tourist train. Board anywhere en route for the round trip. Dream on!

Not as barmy as you might think. HiTrans is looking an internal sleeper from Wick / Thurso to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[najaB]

Memory suggests there are few, if any, sections where high speeds are achieved, maybe no more than 50 at best for most of it?

A lot of the route is 65 to 75mph, with the highest speed being 90mph near Altnabreac.

 

[cf111]

ScotRail & Network Rail have put a lot of time and money into the FNL over the last couple of years. As a result the service is significantly more reliable, in addition the new routeing of the X99 bus now sees it travel via Castletown and Wick before heading down the A9 which means it takes about an hour longer than it did two years ago; you can take the X82 to Dunbeath and change there but it's added faff for Thurso passengers which makes the bus less attractive. The bus was my mode of choice but now I wouldn't touch it - the timetable has been decimated, it's more expensive, the coaches are falling to bits and more often than not you are accompanied up the A9 with the stench, and I do mean stench, of stale urine and diesel.

The refurbished 158s are nice trains: working power sockets, working wi-fi for the majority of the route, pleasant enough toilets, a trolley on the majority of journeys for the first time in years and it no longer feels like you're playing Russian roulette wondering if a train will actually turn up at both ends of the line. Things can get better but I am honestly very pleased with where the line is at this point in time. I have completed literally hundreds of journeys between Thurso and Inverness and this is probably the most pleasant it has been for the passenger in my memory. It was only very recently that I was most pessimistic about the service as it seemed to fall apart on an almost daily basis for one reason on another.

The "Dornoch Link" is the holy grail, that would cut serious time from the journey - I personally don't think I'll ever see it in my time but there are plenty of other cheaper, perhaps more realistic improvements that could be made.

 

[Esker-pades]

The "Dornoch Link" is the holy grail, that would cut serious time from the journey - I personally don't think I'll ever see it in my time but there are plenty of other cheaper, perhaps more realistic improvements that could be made.

I've heard from various sources that the timetabled journey times have increased since '01 by roughly 30 minutes each way (believed to be loop speed limits of 15mph). However, I've not seen the actual timetables so I've not been able to verify. Is that accurate?

 

[backontrack]

I've heard from various sources that the timetabled journey times have increased since '01 by roughly 30 minutes each way (believed to be loop speed limits of 15mph). However, I've not seen the actual timetables so I've not been able to verify. Is that accurate?

I think so. Beauly & Conon Bridge reopenings will be part of that.

 

[Esker-pades]

I think so. Beauly & Conon Bridge reopenings will be part of that.

Thanks for that. Beauly and Conan Bridge can't add more than 5 minutes though.

 

[najaB]

I think so. Beauly & Conon Bridge reopenings will be part of that.

Being on plain track rather than crossing loops they won't have added that much to the journey time - say three or four minutes each at worst. Most of it is the conservative loop entry strategy.