Economic Case for the Far North Line

[backontrack]

Being on plain track rather than crossing loops they won't have added that much to the journey time - say three or four minutes each at worst. Most of it is the conservative loop entry strategy.

Yes. At the same time, the reopenings will have contributed to the tightness of timings around the loops indirectly, in a way.

 

[cf111]

I've heard from various sources that the timetabled journey times have increased since '01 by roughly 30 minutes each way (believed to be loop speed limits of 15mph). However, I've not seen the actual timetables so I've not been able to verify. Is that accurate?

I'm not sure on exact timings but the journey is does take longer. Due in part, I think, to speed restrictions and instructions to stop at certain level crossings. As @najaB says the slow entry speed at crossing loops is a big contributer.

Conon and Beauly are both very busy stations so personally I have no real issue with any slowing down stopping at them may cause.

The timetable north of Tain is very tight. If a train misses the opportunity to cross at Forsinard then the next loop is Helmsdale and obviously vice-versa on the way north.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm not sure on exact timings but the journey is does take longer. Due in part, I think, to speed restrictions and instructions to stop at certain level crossings. As @najaB says the slow entry speed at crossing loops is a big contributer.

Conon and Beauly are both very busy stations so personally I have no real issue with any slowing down stopping at them may cause.

The timetable north of Tain is very tight. If a train misses the opportunity to cross at Forsinard then the next loop is Helmsdale and obviously vice-versa on the way north.

Everything either passes at Forsinard or Helmsdale. The distance between them is one of the biggest problems. That and the lack of a Lentran Loop.

 

[cf111]

Everything either passes at Forsinard or Helmsdale. The distance between them is one of the biggest problems. That and the lack of a Lentran Loop.

Yes, Helmsdale is where you tend to get tipped out when things go badly wrong. It would probably be extortionately expensive but a loop at Kinbrace would be ideal.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, Helmsdale is where you tend to get tipped out when things go badly wrong. It would probably be extortionately expensive but a loop at Kinbrace would be ideal.

There is talk of a very small freight terminal opening up there (I think for wood). That would produce a loop, even if it was only used by late-running services (nothing was timed to pass there in the normal timetable).

 

[Kite159]

Yes, Helmsdale is where you tend to get tipped out when things go badly wrong. It would probably be extortionately expensive but a loop at Kinbrace would be ideal.

Pretty sure that Kinbrace used to be double track at some point in the past so depends how much of the former track bed has been built on/had stuff put on it (signals for level crossing etc)

 

[Esker-pades]

Pretty sure that Kinbrace used to be double track at some point in the past so depends how much of the former track bed has been built on/had stuff put on it (signals for level crossing etc)

Practically every station was a loop. The remains of platforms are visible at Kildonan and Altnabreac of all places.

 

[Highlandspring]

As a point of order the Kinbrace timber loading as currently planned did/does not require a loop or TEP.

 

[najaB]

As a point of order the Kinbrace timber loading as currently planned did/does not require a loop or TEP.

So was the plan to load very quickly?

 

[backontrack]

Conon and Beauly are both very busy stations so personally I have no real issue with any slowing down stopping at them may cause.

Neither have I; just offering an explanation.

Everything either passes at Forsinard or Helmsdale. The distance between them is one of the biggest problems. That and the lack of a Lentran Loop.

Definitely.

Yes, Helmsdale is where you tend to get tipped out when things go badly wrong. It would probably be extortionately expensive but a loop at Kinbrace would be ideal.

It certainly would be! Loops at Lentran and Kinbrace are currently being campaigned for by the FoFNL.

 

[najaB]

It certainly would be! Loops at Lentran and Kinbrace are currently being campaigned for by the FoFNL.

I know this goes without saying, but the Lentran Loop is the priority - a train late by 5 minutes in the morning can cause 30+ minute delays for the rest of the day.

 

[backontrack]

I know this goes without saying, but the Lentran Loop is the priority - a train late by 5 minutes in the morning can cause 30+ minute delays for the rest of the day.

Of course it is and the FoFNL are treating it as such.

There's always the petition in my sig...

 

[geoffk]

I'm coming to the far North this week and plan to travel on the 11.12 ex Dingwall on Saturday, through to Wick, and straight back at 16.00. Anyone know how busy it's likely to be? This will be my first (and probably only) trip north of Dingwall. Looks as though most stations north of Helmsdale have little population nearby (apart from the two termini, obviously).

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm coming to the far North this week and plan to travel on the 11.12 ex Dingwall on Saturday, through to Wick, and straight back at 16.00. Anyone know how busy it's likely to be? This will be my first (and probably only) trip north of Dingwall. Looks as though most stations north of Helmsdale have little population nearby (apart from the two termini, obviously).

I did that service in Feb this year. The unit was about half full starting from Inverness. It fills slightly going north to Dingwall, but thins out by the time one gets north of Lairg. It was about 25% full when I got off at Scotscalder.

 

[najaB]

Anyone know how busy it's likely to be?

Seeing as it's summer it'll probably be quite busy. You might even have to sit next to somebody!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm coming to the far North this week and plan to travel on the 11.12 ex Dingwall on Saturday, through to Wick, and straight back at 16.00. Anyone know how busy it's likely to be? This will be my first (and probably only) trip north of Dingwall. Looks as though most stations north of Helmsdale have little population nearby (apart from the two termini, obviously).

I did that service in Feb this year. The unit was about half full starting from Inverness. It fills slightly going north to Dingwall, but thins out by the time one gets north of Lairg. It was about 25% full when I got off at Scotscalder.

I'm on the lunchtime 12:34 Wick-Inverness train right now. It's got maybe 5 or 10 passengers on at most (on a 2 car 158!), though no doubt it will get a little busier as we get nearer to Inverness! Equally when I came to Wick yesterday on the last train of the day froim Inverness, it was 25-30% full at most and it thinned out substantially by about Ardgay.

I absolutely wouldn't worry about overcrowding, unless there's some exceptional event on. You'd have to be unlucky not to have a table, or at least two seats, to yourself!

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm on the lunchtime 12:34 Wick-Inverness train right now. It's got maybe 5 or 10 passengers on at most (on a 2 car 158!), though no doubt it will get a little busier as we get nearer to Inverness! Equally when I came to Wick yesterday on the last train of the day froim Inverness, it was 25-30% full at most and it thinned out substantially by about Ardgay.

I absolutely wouldn't worry about overcrowding, unless there's some exceptional event on. You'd have to be unlucky not to have a table, or at least two seats, to yourself!

Certainly once the commuter spots of Invergordon & Tain are out of the way.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Following on from the previous poster,there was a regular flow of pipes for North Sea oil to Georgemas Junction which still has potential

One container train there today. Pipes from Tata Steel.

 

[backontrack]

Certainly once the commuter spots of Invergordon & Tain are out of the way.

But the morning and evening boat trains do tend to be more crowded.

 

[Esker-pades]

But the morning and evening boat trains do tend to be more crowded.

Which northbound services are "boat" trains? I know the ~08:30 from Thurso south is.

 

[backontrack]

Which northbound services are "boat" trains? I know the ~08:30 from Thurso south is.

Generally the one which connects with the last departure to Stromness.

Another busy service is the late train to Tain.

 

[Class 170101]

So was the plan to load very quickly?

The train loads on the running line overnight currently.

 

[geoffk]

I did that service in Feb this year. The unit was about half full starting from Inverness. It fills slightly going north to Dingwall, but thins out by the time one gets north of Lairg. It was about 25% full when I got off at Scotscalder.

You got off at Scotscalder? My Far North trip was on Saturday 21st July, north on the 11.12 from Dingwall and returning from Wick 16.00. Seven and a half hours on the train and an hour in Wick! The northbound train was around half full on arrival at Dingwall and more boarded at the next few stations. The return train was not very busy until we reached Tain, picking up folks going for a night out in Inverness as there is a late train back. Both ways we had a trolley and the whisky was sampled on the way south!

Beyond Helmsdale, where the line turns inland, stations are in the middle of nowhere. Most of the nine request stops were not needed in either direction, but at Kildonan there is, as has been reported, a compulsory stop for an open level crossing. Going north, we called at Fearn, Rogart and Dunrobin Castle, and southbound at Altnabreac (Fearn was not a scheduled stop). That means there were no takers at all at Culrain, Invershin, Kildonan, Kinbrace and Scotscalder. Not sure about Forsinard, where there was a crossing in both directions.

An enjoyable (and on-time) trip which I'm unlikely to repeat, living in Greater Manchester. I see there is an active user group which is promoting, among other things, a new crossing loop between Inverness and Muir of Ord.

 

[Esker-pades]

You got off at Scotscalder? My Far North trip was on Saturday 21st July, north on the 11.12 from Dingwall and returning from Wick 16.00. Seven and a half hours on the train and an hour in Wick! The northbound train was around half full on arrival at Dingwall and more boarded at the next few stations. The return train was not very busy until we reached Tain, picking up folks going for a night out in Inverness as there is a late train back. Both ways we had a trolley and the whisky was sampled on the way south!

Beyond Helmsdale, where the line turns inland, stations are in the middle of nowhere. Most of the nine request stops were not needed in either direction, but at Kildonan there is, as has been reported, a compulsory stop for an open level crossing. Going north, we called at Fearn, Rogart and Dunrobin Castle, and southbound at Altnabreac (Fearn was not a scheduled stop). That means there were no takers at all at Culrain, Invershin, Kildonan, Kinbrace and Scotscalder. Not sure about Forsinard, where there was a crossing in both directions.

An enjoyable (and on-time) trip which I'm unlikely to repeat, living in Greater Manchester. I see there is an active user group which is promoting, among other things, a new crossing loop between Inverness and Muir of Ord.

I got off at Scotscalder. Only for this: https://felixunstructured.weebly.com/lusblog/far-north-line-journey-1-scotscalder . There's not much in Scotscalder for a visitor.

 

[geoffk]

I got off at Scotscalder. Only for this: https://felixunstructured.weebly.com/lusblog/far-north-line-journey-1-scotscalder . There's not much in Scotscalder for a visitor.

Thanks. I'm sure this will be an interesting read.

 

[DarloRich]

Economic Case for the Far North Line - none! it wouldn't get built today. However by the same token i don't think it is worth the faff to close it!

 

[Kite159]

I got off at Scotscalder. Only for this: https://felixunstructured.weebly.com/lusblog/far-north-line-journey-1-scotscalder . There's not much in Scotscalder for a visitor.

A good read If you think Scotscalder is bad for not having that much around just wait until you get off at some of the other remote stations on that line (and also the Kyle line)

IIRC when I visited that station last May, I was the only passenger getting on or off both times, although my planned ~30 minute wait [staying overnight in Thurso] was extended to around 90 minutes due to the northbound service getting delayed and having to wait at Helmsdale to loop

 

[geoffk]

As @najaB says the slow entry speed at crossing loops is a big contributer.

Is this is a new phenomenon and the result of radio signalling? I noticed the slow entry speed but elsewhere we made good progress mostly at 60 to 75 mph.

 

[Esker-pades]

Is this is a new phenomenon and the result of radio signalling? I noticed the slow entry speed but elsewhere we made good progress mostly at 60 to 75 mph.

15mph adds at least a minute at each loop.

 

[Highlandspring]

The 15mph limit over the hydro-pneumatic points has been in place since they were first installed in1984.