Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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Bletchleyite

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Many years ago as a kid I remember a family that lived on our street used to drive to the local corner shop which was little more than 500 yards away. So this does not surprise me in the least.
Entertainingly my nearest local shop is about 2 minutes' walk away but due to the road layout it would, by the time you've got in the car, started it etc, take about 5 minutes to drive. I wonder how many nonetheless do? I bet the figure is non-zero.
 
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Howardh

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When my car last had an MOT (November last IIRC) it had done something like under 1000 miles since the previous one, and there were a couple of issues which the mechanic said "you're not driving the car enough...."!!
 

trainophile

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Then they should go for a daily local walk, not go to Skeggy to get ratted in a grim Wetherspoons.
Haha, funnily enough Skeggy is the only place where I have been unwell after a Wetherspoons meal. Disgustingly greasy, re-heated tasting fish - I should have left it actually and just eaten the chips.
 

Ianno87

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When my car last had an MOT (November last IIRC) it had done something like under 1000 miles since the previous one, and there were a couple of issues which the mechanic said "you're not driving the car enough...."!!
There is a real possibility that I may not drive my car at all for quite a few weeks. And if I do it'll only be a ~1 mile trip to do a big shop.
 

yorksrob

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Haha, funnily enough Skeggy is the only place where I have been unwell after a Wetherspoons meal. Disgustingly greasy, re-heated tasting fish - I should have left it actually and just eaten the chips.
You only get about three chips in a Weatherspoons meal anyway !
 

sheff1

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Squads of BTP blockading Skegness bound trains at Nottingham, Grantham and Skegness itself refusing entry to non essential travellers. Apparently a spike in sales of tickets in advance for this weekend has been noted. Multiple individuals already dumped back on the train to where they came from apparently.
And yet EMR are still offering Advance tickets for Nottingham - Skegness travel tomorrow.
 

LowLevel

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And yet EMR are still offering Advance tickets for Nottingham - Skegness travel tomorrow.
In situations like these they're normally reluctant to withdraw advance tickets because it's seen to be capitalising on the situation with more expensive fares.

In practice some long distance travel does take case that is essential on that route - there are a few regular customers who have things like oncology appointments in hospital at Nottingham from that part of the world. If they must travel why should they have to pay more for it?
 

dgl

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The one thing I am really grateful of at the moment is that that I can literally be alongside the river Aire & Leeds Liverpool canal in 5 minutes, and on the moors in less than 10 (and I can walk to Saltaire along the canal in about 40 minutes). Its one reason we live where we do.
Agreed, I live within 1 minute of Chesil Beach and so can go on a very nice walk without going that far. Esp. with the weather being excellent at the moment. Add to that having a recently opened Lidl down here now I can take a nice walk along the harbour/quay to do my shopping, which takes hardly any more time to do vice going along the main road.
If anyone wants to see what it's been like out there I'll post a picture, scenery like this really lifts your spirits up.
 

Puffing Devil

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I started my car up today after a two-week break - it wasn't best happy and the battery had run down, but enough juice to crank the engine. We drove the 1.5 mile to the local dairy to get some milk, though we've been walking with the dog for the last couple of weeks as that's only a mile over the fields. Car is now trickle charging on the drive - you may want to check your own motors.
 

RichT54

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I started my car up today after a two-week break - it wasn't best happy and the battery had run down, but enough juice to crank the engine. We drove the 1.5 mile to the local dairy to get some milk, though we've been walking with the dog for the last couple of weeks as that's only a mile over the fields. Car is now trickle charging on the drive - you may want to check your own motors.
I remember reading many years ago that it takes about 15 minutes of normal running for an average car to replace the energy in battery that was used to start it. I don't know if that is still true for more modern cars. Since the current restrictions I've only used my car to go 1.5 miles each way to do the weekly food shop and have been wondering if I should go the long way there and hope the police are not doing stop checks on the route. I don't have a battery charger - the one I bought for my first motorcycle (early 70s) expired quite a while ago!
 

dgl

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Yes, short trips did the battery in on my grans focus, she was probably only doing ~5-10mi a week, remember not only is it the starting load that takes energy out of the battery that has to then be replaced when the car is running, other bits on the car will be powered up as well (primarily security devices), so there is even more energy that has to be put back in.
 

LowLevel

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Definitely true. Police dog taking a chunk out of one gentleman who wasn't happy at being denied travel and took a swing at a copper at Nottingham station a few minutes ago.
Apparently, it turns out, he had a knife and a bag full of drugs, was tasered twice, jumped a 13 foot wall and then was mauled by a police dog.
 

njamescouk

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a twitter thread by the lawyer the Times asked to look into the Newcastle case is at https://mobile.twitter.com/Kirsty_Brimelow/status/1245678069781798912

text follows:


Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
THREAD: A humble attempt to explain why I say there was no power to arrest or charge or prosecute or convict Ms. Dinou under Schedule 21 para 23(1)(a) and (2) of the Coronavirus Act 2020.
1. details of the charge: "you failed to provide BTP officers with your identity or
12:42 PM · Apr 2, 2020·Twitter Web App
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Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
Replying to
@Kirsty_Brimelow
reasons for your journey; you failed to comply with a requirement imposed under Sch 21
2. "Schedule 21 contains powers relating to "potentially infectious persons" i.e. person who is or may be infected/ contaminated with coronavirus or has been in an infected area 14 days before
Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
3. Ms Dinou was not considered to be potentially infectious. This is key.
4. Plus powers re. a potentially infectious person incl:
i. where a public health officer has reasonable grounds to suspect person is potentially infectious s/he can direct or remove a person to a place
Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
for assessment/screening;
ii. or request police to remove the person to a place suitable for screening/assessment (s.6(2)(c)).
iii.Safeguards (s.6(3): "only if necessary and proportionate to do so".
5.If police have reasonable grounds to suspect a person
Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
is potentially infectious (s.7) they may direct or remove the person to place for assessment/screening.
6. Same safeguards (s.7(3)).
7.Police must inform person reason removing them & is offence if refuse to comply.
8.Powers to detain in place of assessment/screening (s.8-13).
Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
9.Powers exercisable after assessment (s. 14 -17).
10. s. 23 (para which is the charge): an offence if fails without reasonable excuse to comply with directions, reasonable instruction, requirement or restriction imposed under this Part of the Schedule i.e. above. None applies.
Kirsty Brimelow QC
@Kirsty_Brimelow
·
Apr 2
If you're still with me - the Health Protection (Coronavirus, restrictions) Regulations 2020 are the emergency regulations. They are made under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. The main prohibition on freedom of movement is reg. 6. This wasn't used in this case.

can't follow the entire argument myself, but case has been quashed, as mentioned by others.

the Times article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...a-single-word-to-police-or-in-court-0kjq9zrhj


begins

A woman who was wrongly convicted of loitering under new coronavirus laws was tried and punished in her absence after not speaking or making a sound for three days.

The Times revealed on Thursday how Marie Dinou, 41, had been prosecuted and fined under the wrong legislation after she was arrested by British Transport Police (BTP) at Newcastle Central station on Saturday morning.

The force admitted that its actions had been incorrect. The case was relisted and set aside at Tyneside magistrates’ court yesterday, meaning that Ms Dinou has effectively had the conviction quashed.

BTP, which has apologised for the error, had initially said that she was detained and charged because she “refused to speak” to officers after being seen “loitering between platforms”.
 

Tetchytyke

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And yet EMR are still offering Advance tickets for Nottingham - Skegness travel tomorrow.
But if they pull them all it looks like they're price-gouging on essential travel, so they're damned either way!

Squads of BTP blockading Skegness bound trains at Nottingham, Grantham and Skegness itself refusing entry to non essential travellers.
On what grounds? "I'm off for a walk officer". Perfdctly legal.

I don't disagree with their motivation exactly, but once again I'm alarmed at BTP officers deciding to make up their own laws.

It's cold and drizzly here at least :lol:
 

111-111-1

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But if they pull them all it looks like they're price-gouging on essential travel, so they're damned either way!



On what grounds? "I'm off for a walk officer". Perfdctly legal.

I don't disagree with their motivation exactly, but once again I'm alarmed at BTP officers deciding to make up their own laws.

It's cold and drizzly here at least :lol:
The rules are exercise must be taken near the persons home, getting on a train does not constitute taking a walk near home. It has been clarified that it is ok to drive a short distance which was suggested as a 5 minutes drive.
 

Bletchleyite

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The rules are exercise must be taken near the persons home, getting on a train does not constitute taking a walk near home. It has been clarified that it is ok to drive a short distance which was suggested as a 5 minutes drive.
No, the law doesn't state that. Those are Gove's views, which don't constitute law and aren't enforceable in and of themselves.

The laws in each constituent UK countries are as follows (they aren't quite the same):
England: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/contents/made
Wales: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/353/contents/made
Scotland: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/contents/made
NI: https://www.health-ni.gov.uk/public...estrictions-northern-ireland-regulations-2020
 

Jona26

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Just out on foot locally for my excercise. Just passed a house where the family of 2 adults and 3 kids having a barbecue in their front garden right next to the main pavement, ie less than 2 metres.

A case of sticking to the letter of the law but not the spirit of it perhaps?
 

fishquinn

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getting on a train does not constitute taking a walk near home
It could. The letter of the law would fully allow (eg) someone to walk 3 miles to a local station, catch a train along the line for 2 miles and then walk another 3 miles home via a different route. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me (although I'm not personally in a position to do that based on where I live). In the same respect, the law allows (although it probably shouldn't because it's ridiculous and goes completely against the advice) someone to cycle 50 miles and then catch a train most of the way home as they're using the train for exercise purposes. Of course it's easier for everyone if people didn't use the train unless they needed to but this is people we're talking about.
 

Mag_seven

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Just out on foot locally for my excercise. Just passed a house where the family of 2 adults and 3 kids having a barbecue in their front garden right next to the main pavement, ie less than 2 metres.

A case of sticking to the letter of the law but not the spirit of it perhaps?
If you are in your garden my understanding of the situation is that you are in your house even though you may actually be outside:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.
 

Jona26

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If you are in your garden my understanding of the situation is that you are in your house even though you may actually be outside:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made
Agree that the garden is part of the home hence comment being "the letter rather than the spirit of the law."

This particular location would mean me having to walk in the busy main road to maintain distance as there is no pavement or footpath on the opposite side of the road.
 

Darandio

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Agree that the garden is part of the home hence comment being "the letter rather than the spirit of the law."

This particular location would mean me having to walk in the busy main road to maintain distance as there is no pavement or footpath on the opposite side of the road.
Busy main road? I thought everyone was at home. But seriously, let them have their barbecue, they haven't got much else right now. You aren't going to catch anything by scurrying past.
 

111-111-1

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No, the law doesn't state that. Those are Gove's views, which don't constitute law and aren't enforceable in and of themselves.

The laws in each constituent UK countries are as follows (they aren't quite the same):
England: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/contents/made
Wales: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/353/contents/made
Scotland: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2020/103/contents/made
NI: https://www.health-ni.gov.uk/public...estrictions-northern-ireland-regulations-2020
It could. The letter of the law would fully allow (eg) someone to walk 3 miles to a local station, catch a train along the line for 2 miles and then walk another 3 miles home via a different route. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me (although I'm not personally in a position to do that based on where I live). In the same respect, the law allows (although it probably shouldn't because it's ridiculous and goes completely against the advice) someone to cycle 50 miles and then catch a train most of the way home as they're using the train for exercise purposes. Of course it's easier for everyone if people didn't use the train unless they needed to but this is people we're talking about.

The rules as linked to by Bletchleyite state that you must not travel except for very limited reasons which do not include for exercise.

Although not mentioned in the law the advice has been not to use public transport except for essential journeys, travelling for exercise cannot be described as essential.

We have also been told that we must not travel miles to the beach or beauty spots.

I accept that some who live in areas without many off road paths may want to drive a short distance to a park or countryside but the vast majority will not really have a need to, indeed Government advice is that it is ok.

With regard Fishquinn's suggestions they are just excuses for putting more people on trains than is necessary maybe making social distancing impossible. If you want to cycle 50 miles do 25 miles out and 25 miles home. If you want a 6 mile walk just plan a 6 mile walk without using public transport.

All you are doing is making excuses to flout official Government advice because it is not written in detail within the legislation. Never mind that transport workers and other essential workers who need to be on the train are being put more at risk.
 
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fishquinn

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All you are doing is making excuses to flout official Government advice because it is not written in detail within the legislation. Never mind that transport workers and other essential workers who need to be on the train are being put more at risk.
I'm not looking for excuses here and will follow the advice (so no public transport unless needed) but am merely stating what the law says and means. Your post makes me think you haven't actually read the law, which is a tad more lenient than the advice given and does allow for exercise as an essential.
 

111-111-1

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I'm guessing you didn't read them, then?
Actually I have read them and they are quite simple to understand. I also listen to what is said on TV from the Government.

The restrictions on movement state you must not leave your home without reasonable excuse then list the reasonable excuses.

6 B states: to take exercise either alone or with other members of your household.

6F states: to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

Nowhere does it say you can travel for exercise. I repeat again that the Government officials have given clarification that, although not in the law, that you can drive a short distance to exercise. How you can consider it to be reasonable, in the examples in this thread Nottingham or Grantham to Skegness, to travel such distance for the purpose of exercise is beyond me. It appears blatantly obvious you are nit-picking the legislation and suggesting that flouting Government advice. That advice is actually now an instruction, listen to what the PM said yesterday in his twitter communication. Suggesting such is putting transport workers and those who have to travel at greater risk.
 
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