English bus usage continues to fall (in most places)

[pemma]

I always understood that British towns and cities were particularly low density, like everybody else. It was as an excuse why Britain can't offer good city transport. However, after reading "Transport for Suburbia", I was actually surprised to see that British towns and cities are actually high density compared to many European cities with world class transport and high patronage.

In Britain we seem to have the argument cities like Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Bristol and Liverpool can't have similar transport spending per head to London because of lower population density doesn't allow for it. However, Scotland has higher transport spending per head than any other part of the UK and the defence for that is the low population density means public spending on transport has to be high. :roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In Britain we seem to have the argument cities like Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Bristol and Liverpool can't have similar transport spending per head to London because of lower population density doesn't allow for it. However, Scotland has higher transport spending per head than any other part of the UK and the defence for that is the low population density means public spending on transport has to be high. :roll:

That's a bit mixed....

Firstly, the Barnett formula means that Scotland gets more per capita in terms of grants.

Also, you're looking at English cities vs. all of Scotland. Much of Scotland is concentrated in the central belt in terms of population and economic activity but the rest of Scotland is pretty sparse excl. Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness. Even those places aren't exactly big either

 

[AB93]

I didn't know if it was done immediately or downloaded at some point during the day. Presumably if there is no radio coverage it is buffered and transmitted when possible to do so. I guess the same could be used elsewhere as long as there was some sort of coverage along the route.

I must admit, I thought that with contactless cards, all the data is done at the end of the day, when the system then calculates which caps (if any) need to be made based on the trips you've made and only charges your account the final amount.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Far too many bus lanes are a stick to hit motorists with rather than a carrot to attract them onto buses.

The UK approach is largely to have a bus lane that runs the length of a road and then stops about 3-4 bus lengths before the junction. But it is the junction that is the main problem.

I don't agree - I find it's much more common for the bus lane to run along the road, and then stop just short of the junction. The reason for this is to maximise/maintain junction capacity (i.e. so you can still get as many cars through as possible). So in fact, to minimise the effect on general traffic (even if you believe it's a "stick" to "beat" cars with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Didn't he remove it as an experiment to see which ones were a waste of space?

I don't support the stick; if certain bus lanes provide no tangible benefit to buses they need removing.

Have you ever read up on Liverpool?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/removal-liverpool-bus-lanes-journeys-7977836

"Journey times for cars and buses increased on a number of Liverpool routes with bus lanes during their suspension – but city bosses are still planning to scrap them."

"But as well as some car journeys becoming slower, bus journeys were found to be variable by more than 70% on one key route into Liverpool."

"The 500-page report by consultants Mott McDonald shows a sample set of data that suggests “non-bus journey times also show an average journey time increase, slightly higher than that observed for buses" !!!

Before anyone picks me up on it, yes, in some places the bus journey times went down. But the fact that the council are still going ahead and scrapping bus lanes where bus and car journey times both increased shows complete contempt.

http://www.route-one.net/industry/bus-lane-cuts-cost-revealed/

"Speaking at a Transport Focus seminar on bus punctuality monitoring in Liverpool last Monday (29 June), Arriva Merseyside Area MD Howard Farrall says that lost mileage “increased massively” when the bus lanes were temporarily withdrawn by Mayor Joe Anderson in October 2013."

"“We also find the lack of predictability very difficult to deal with,” says Mr Farrall. “Since October 2013 we have had to add nine additional buses to our city network. In real terms, that’s around a £1m investment.”"

Sad times

At least there's no chance the same adminstration will get control of the bus services as well. Oh no, wait...

 

[radamfi]

I must admit, I thought that with contactless cards, all the data is done at the end of the day, when the system then calculates which caps (if any) need to be made based on the trips you've made and only charges your account the final amount.

The fare processing is done overnight, but the touches in and out are transmitted as they happen, so you can see them on your online account.

I don't agree - I find it's much more common for the bus lane to run along the road, and then stop just short of the junction.

Do you mean in NL/DE or the UK? Certainly what you said is how it is done here. Neil said bus priority at the junction is more common in NL/DE than in the UK. The Dutch do have some spectacular busways as well and buses along motorways are sometimes allowed to use the hard shoulder when there is traffic. You also sometimes get motorway junctions just for buses.

 

[AB93]

The fare processing is done overnight, but the touches in and out are transmitted as they happen, so you can see them on your online account.

Thanks.

Do you mean in NL/DE or the UK? Certainly what you said is how it is done here. Neil said bus priority at the junction is more common in NL/DE than in the UK. The Dutch do have some spectacular busways as well and buses along motorways are sometimes allowed to use the hard shoulder when there is traffic. You also sometimes get motorway junctions just for buses.

Sorry, yes, the UK.

 

[the sniper]

False.

Bus usage has been rising steadily in Edinburgh for years. The last figures published for Lothian Buses showed an increase of 3 million journeys from 115.4m in 2013 to 118.4m in 2014.

Interesting, as for some reason Edinburgh is one of the few places I've been in the UK where the bus looked like an appealing way to travel!

Looking through this thread there are various theories given for wider falling bus usage, but for me, and most people I know, the main reason I know of has been missed. The main reason I wouldn't choose to catch a bus where I live (Birmingham) is that it just isn't an appealing way to travel. My experience of catching NXWM buses for a short period on a semi regular basis five years ago put me off completely. The timetable seemed to be bear little resemblance to the service provided; the journey was slow due to traffic, navigating road furniture/parked cars and the number of bus stops; there were always a large percentage of undesirables travelling with you; the ride was uncomfortable, due to both the seating and the way you were jerked and thrown about; the buses rattled and roared even at low speeds; the buses were dirty inside and out, and I rarely got one that didn't smell of weed... And to round it all off, for all of this it cost double what the train would cost to cover double the distance I did on the bus. I just found the bus to be an unpleasant way to travel. Given any real alternative, I'd have never caught the bus back then. I've had a car for nearly five years now and would never consider catching the bus here again.

Going back to Edinburgh, my sister goes to Uni there so I've ended up driving up and around there a few times now. The buses there, even from the outside, look like a much more appealing proposition. Sorry if this sounds snobby, but just the clientele alone using the buses there make it seem more appealing for a start. My sister would never catch the bus in Birmingham nowadays, given any choice, as she's had broadly the same experiences as me, (but due to being female and having used NXWM more than me she had the additional delights of being personally bothered by nutters and yobs on occasion) but she's a regular user of the buses in Edinburgh and says the difference is night and day. All sorts of people from all walks of life choose to travel by bus there. She's never experienced any crime or anti-social behaviour. The buses and service is well presented. More than anything though the atmosphere is just entirely different from what we found to be the experience in Birmingham.

Additionally the only regular bus users in Birmingham I know now are work colleagues. I believe without exception they only do so because they either don't have a driving license (but most plan to get one), only have one car which their other half uses or because they can't get the train home due to them finishing after the end of service. I don't think the idea of catching the bus appeals to any of them, other than it being cheaper than getting a taxi, which some of them do sometimes due to the infrequent bus service at the end of the day.

 

[Robertj21a]

Interesting, as for some reason Edinburgh is one of the few places I've been in the UK where the bus looked like an appealing way to travel!

Looking through this thread there are various theories given for wider falling bus usage, but for me, and most people I know, the main reason I know of has been missed. The main reason I wouldn't choose to catch a bus where I live (Birmingham) is that it just isn't an appealing way to travel. My experience of catching NXWM buses for a short period on a semi regular basis five years ago put me off completely. The timetable seemed to be bear little resemblance to the service provided; the journey was slow due to traffic, navigating road furniture/parked cars and the number of bus stops; there were always a large percentage of undesirables travelling with you; the ride was uncomfortable, due to both the seating and the way you were jerked and thrown about; the buses rattled and roared even at low speeds; the buses were dirty inside and out, and I rarely got one that didn't smell of weed... And to round it all off, for all of this it cost double what the train would cost to cover double the distance I did on the bus. I just found the bus to be an unpleasant way to travel. Given any real alternative, I'd have never caught the bus back then. I've had a car for nearly five years now and would never consider catching the bus here again.

Going back to Edinburgh, my sister goes to Uni there so I've ended up driving up and around there a few times now. The buses there, even from the outside, look like a much more appealing proposition. Sorry if this sounds snobby, but just the clientele alone using the buses there make it seem more appealing for a start. My sister would never catch the bus in Birmingham nowadays, given any choice, as she's had broadly the same experiences as me, (but due to being female and having used NXWM more than me she had the additional delights of being personally bothered by nutters and yobs on occasion) but she's a regular user of the buses in Edinburgh and says the difference is night and day. All sorts of people from all walks of life choose to travel by bus there. She's never experienced any crime or anti-social behaviour. The buses and service is well presented. More than anything though the atmosphere is just entirely different from what we found to be the experience in Birmingham.

Additionally the only regular bus users in Birmingham I know now are work colleagues. I believe without exception they only do so because they either don't have a driving license (but most plan to get one), only have one car which their other half uses or because they can't get the train home due to them finishing after the end of service. I don't think the idea of catching the bus appeals to any of them, other than it being cheaper than getting a taxi, which some of them do sometimes due to the infrequent bus service at the end of the day.

Regrettably, I have to agree with a lot of this. In many areas the bus is just so very poorly presented to potential passengers - and then you find it's also populated by some 'undesirables' that you'd avoid if you used your own car.

 

[pemma]

That's a bit mixed....

Firstly, the Barnett formula means that Scotland gets more per capita in terms of grants.

Also, you're looking at English cities vs. all of Scotland. Much of Scotland is concentrated in the central belt in terms of population and economic activity but the rest of Scotland is pretty sparse excl. Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness. Even those places aren't exactly big either

No I'm making two comparisons - London to other cities and England to Scotland.

 

[edwin_m]

Regrettably, I have to agree with a lot of this. In many areas the bus is just so very poorly presented to potential passengers - and then you find it's also populated by some 'undesirables' that you'd avoid if you used your own car.

In effect, for those that have a car available, the bus has the same main disadvantage as the car (traffic congestion) but none of the advantages (avoiding said congestion by picking own route, private environment, etc etc). This can to some extent be offset by creating enough bus priority to give it a journey time advantage, but this often isn't possible politically or physically and even if done most car users are probably too entrenched in their views to switch to bus.

 

[Robertj21a]

In effect, for those that have a car available, the bus has the same main disadvantage as the car (traffic congestion) but none of the advantages (avoiding said congestion by picking own route, private environment, etc etc). This can to some extent be offset by creating enough bus priority to give it a journey time advantage, but this often isn't possible politically or physically and even if done most car users are probably too entrenched in their views to switch to bus.

Of course it is also affected by the cost, i.e how many people are usually travelling together.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course it is also affected by the cost, i.e how many people are usually travelling together.

Look at the number of people who car share in the peak....not many!

 

[Robertj21a]

Look at the number of people who car share in the peak....not many!

Quite agree, but if there are numbers travelling together then it may well influence the decision.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Quite agree, but if there are numbers travelling together then it may well influence the decision.

Indeed but the great many don't. Again, is it the personal space argument? I can sit in my own little metal box, listening to my music and with the temperature as I want it!!!

 

[Tom B]

And Lothian just seem to get better and better. But Edinburgh (a city I really like) is not typical of the UK as a whole - it has a high density population more typical of a European city - which will contribute towards public transport's success.

Whilst I do not have statistics, I believe that much of the growth over the last 15 years in Edinburgh has been outwith the inner city, as services expanded past the historic LRT boundary at the edge of the city into Bonnyrigg, Tranent, Penicuik etc. Many former FirstBus services have been replaced in recent years.

And, the point about status is important. In many cities, buses remain the transport of last resort. LRT buses have persons of all types from students/DSS to high flying lawyers.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd need a lot of persuading to car-share - having a stranger invade my personal space doesn't bear thinking about. But I'm generally OK with sharing a much more limited space on a train or bus, unless someone is being really anti-social.

However, when Britain's first high occupancy vehicle lane was introduced a few years ago (Leeds?) there were reports of drivers stopping at bus stops and offering people lifts so they were entitled to use it. Which probably isn't great from a personal safety point of view.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Edinburgh and London are very similar in terms of bus usage: an expensive capital city that's a nightmare to drive and park in, compared with a cheap and frequent bus service. It's no wonder people take the bus.

I take the bus to work because I don't have a car and the Newcastle winter isn't the best to cycle in, but I'm in no rush to buy a car because parking is the killer at my end of town. The bus fare is less than the car park fee, even without taking petrol or car on-costs into account.

But I'm not sure the bus service would ever tempt people out of cars. It sits in all the same traffic jams the cars do, it is slow (I can cycle the ten miles to work faster than the bus does the same journey, and I'm the exact opposite of Bradley Wiggins), it is infrequent, it is full of really annoying college kids, and fake leather seats and free WiFi isn't really enough to compensate for all that. The fact that Arriva think they're being terribly innovative with fake leather seats and free WiFi on an ex-London bus just sums up the industry, really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actively dislike slippy, sweaty fake leather seats and blue LEDs, personally. I vastly prefer the standard Arriva interior.

The original Sapphire concept had something genuinely good that genuinely would attract me - wider 2+1 seating upstairs - but this for some reason (cost no doubt) did not proliferate.

As for Lothian it's not just cheap and frequent - they pay an extraordinary amount of attention to quality, appearance and professionalism. It's like a step back in time. To be fair, the whole city is in some ways like a step back in time...I really do like it!

Edit: bigging up Lothian a little more, here's how to make leather seats look classy (even if I don't like them). Clue: warm white LEDs in a narrow strip that give the effect of spots, and less tacky colours:

Mind you, Stagecoach Gold ain't bad...

 

[tony_mac]

Have you ever read up on Liverpool?
...
"But as well as some car journeys becoming slower, bus journeys were found to be variable by more than 70% on one key route into Liverpool."

Is that report available anywhere?
Did bus usage drop significantly during the trial?

The increase and variability in travel times on the 79 route is hardly surprising given the roadworks over that period - it was reduced to one-way traffic with temporary lights for several months.

 

[Busaholic]

Bus usage won't be encouraged if the information supplied doesn't improve. I tried to check bus times from Rosudgeon to Penzance this afternoon for my wife on trunk route 2 of First Kernow. The online timetable gave details of two possibly suitable bus times, but it was obvious to me that in practice only one of the times was applicable for schooldays, the other being for non-schooldays, but how to differentiate, given neither was signalled as such and neither actually seemed to serve any schools directly, particularly as both would complete their journeys before schools were out. The difference at Rosudgeon, on a main road without a shelter in the middle of winter, was 15 minutes.
I then went to Travelline South West which required me to type in route number, company operating the route and the place of departure. First was no good, it offered me First Leicester and First in Essex etc (both deeply involved in bus operation in the SW of course!) but, even when I'd added the magic word Kernow, it refused to acknowledge there was such a place as Rosudgeon, even though it's a timing point on said 2. Just for a laugh, I tried Helston, knowing the bus would be coming from there, but again Travelline knew that such a place only existed in folklore so could not supply details.
Eventually on the Cornwall Council website I typed in Rosudgeon, was offered four different stops, and was able to get details of all the buses that afternoon, which did not include the phantom journey on the 2, which was the later one. And the result? My wife was kindly offered a lift by her friend, partly to put her mind at rest and also because it began raining.
Which all goes to show that bus travel might be seen as either for the intrepid or those who have no other choice, which is rather a sorry state of affairs. My wife does not share my enthusiasm for buses, and why should she?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I actively dislike slippy, sweaty fake leather seats and blue LEDs, personally. I vastly prefer the standard Arriva interior.

The original Sapphire concept had something genuinely good that genuinely would attract me - wider 2+1 seating upstairs - but this for some reason (cost no doubt) did not proliferate.

As for Lothian it's not just cheap and frequent - they pay an extraordinary amount of attention to quality, appearance and professionalism. It's like a step back in time. To be fair, the whole city is in some ways like a step back in time...I really do like it!

Edit: bigging up Lothian a little more, here's how to make leather seats look classy (even if I don't like them). Clue: warm white LEDs in a narrow strip that give the effect of spots, and less tacky colours:

Mind you, Stagecoach Gold ain't bad...

The problem with 2+1 seating is simply economics. To get the same capacity (and indeed if you're growing it), you need many more resources and increase costs.

It's why Megabus worked and Greyhound didn't (among other reasons )

 

[njtruscott]

Bus usage won't be encouraged if the information supplied doesn't improve. I tried to check bus times from Rosudgeon to Penzance this afternoon for my wife on trunk route 2 of First Kernow. The online timetable gave details of two possibly suitable bus times, but it was obvious to me that in practice only one of the times was applicable for schooldays, the other being for non-schooldays, but how to differentiate, given neither was signalled as such and neither actually seemed to serve any schools directly, particularly as both would complete their journeys before schools were out. The difference at Rosudgeon, on a main road without a shelter in the middle of winter, was 15 minutes.
I then went to Travelline South West which required me to type in route number, company operating the route and the place of departure. First was no good, it offered me First Leicester and First in Essex etc (both deeply involved in bus operation in the SW of course!) but, even when I'd added the magic word Kernow, it refused to acknowledge there was such a place as Rosudgeon, even though it's a timing point on said 2. Just for a laugh, I tried Helston, knowing the bus would be coming from there, but again Travelline knew that such a place only existed in folklore so could not supply details.
Eventually on the Cornwall Council website I typed in Rosudgeon, was offered four different stops, and was able to get details of all the buses that afternoon, which did not include the phantom journey on the 2, which was the later one. And the result? My wife was kindly offered a lift by her friend, partly to put her mind at rest and also because it began raining.
Which all goes to show that bus travel might be seen as either for the intrepid or those who have no other choice, which is rather a sorry state of affairs. My wife does not share my enthusiasm for buses, and why should she?

The Traveline Sw website does not need all the detail stated above. A point to point journey plan can be created by entering two points on the Plan Your Journey link
http://www.travelinesw.com/swe/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en&timeOffset=15

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with 2+1 seating is simply economics. To get the same capacity (and indeed if you're growing it), you need many more resources and increase costs.

Indeed, but there are some people you simply won't attract onto a bus unless the issue of personal space is addressed. I'm quite big (and a bit podgy, though if I lost that I wouldn't be much narrower), and I hate being pushed up against someone in a bus seat that simply isn't wide enough.

Some coaches (I think the SNCF Ouibus ones) have pull-into-the-aisle seats, but that isn't going to work for buses. I think there will need to be a solution to that in order to attract a population that is getting ever bigger - without it, you simply cannot match the comfort of the car.

A thought - buses have got longer over the years by a varying set of bits of legislation. Is there any scope to change the law to make them a little wider, perhaps 10cm or so would suffice to be able to place a 5cm gap between the seats on each side, or say 3cm between the seats and 2cm from the side wall, also a significant comfort issue to the broad-shouldered bloke?

As for Greyhound, it failed in my view more because of First's complete inability to run any kind of new idea anywhere other than into the ground, and not because it was markedly inferior to Megabus (who indeed started off with low-quality packed-in double deckers and have now moved onto reasonably decent coaches). Though I have wondered if the likes of Megabus might do well to try some kind of slightly-premium-class, such as an extra tenner to have an extra few inches of legroom and sit in the front few rows. Though the difficulty with anything that makes their coaches non-standard is that they would have trouble when they hire coaches in.

 

[overthewater]

A thought - buses have got longer over the years by a varying set of bits of legislation. Is there any scope to change the law to make them a little wider, perhaps 10cm or so would suffice to be able to place a 5cm gap between the seats on each side, or say 3cm between the seats and 2cm from the side wall, also a significant comfort issue to the broad-shouldered bloke?

As for Greyhound, it failed in my view more because of First's complete inability to run any kind of new idea anywhere other than into the ground, and not because it was markedly inferior to Megabus (who indeed started off with low-quality packed-in double deckers and have now moved onto reasonably decent coaches). Though I have wondered if the likes of Megabus might do well to try some kind of slightly-premium-class, such as an extra tenner to have an extra few inches of legroom and sit in the front few rows. Though the difficulty with anything that makes their coaches non-standard is that they would have trouble when they hire coaches in.

Megabus has Megabus Gold; but the daytime services never took off on the two routes it tried.

 

[radamfi]

Some coaches (I think the SNCF Ouibus ones) have pull-into-the-aisle seats

Britain seems to be particularly weak in providing that facility on long distance scheduled coach services. I didn't even know that was possible until I went on an iDBus coach (Ouibus used be called iDBus). I have since been on scheduled coaches in Germany, Greece, Bulgaria and Macedonia and all had seats that could be pulled into the aisle.

British coaches available for private hire, tours and excursions, which I assume are the vast majority, do sometimes provide that. You can sometimes get one on a rail replacement service or National Express duplicate.

So it seems that National Express and Megabus deliberately choose to provide seats without width adjustable seats.

However, if we are keeping in line with the thread title, Britain does have a lot of coach passengers compared to other western European countries. Obviously Britain has had a coach tradition for over 100 years, whereas some other countries have only recently started to allow long distance coaches to compete with trains for the first time. High coach usage is also clearly influenced by expensive or slow trains, or by a large economic underclass.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

High coach usage is also clearly influenced by expensive or slow trains, or by a large economic underclass.

Absolutely - that's one of the reasons why Greyhound didn't work - I did say it wasn't the only. You have that "economic underclass" so people buy on price. They are unlikely to spend more on quality; if you have that latitude, then the train becomes a more likely option.

So compared to NX, Greyhound had the same costs (at least) but 8 fewer seats to recoup that cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Megabus has Megabus Gold; but the daytime services never took off on the two routes it tried.

True, though that's rather more than a couple of rows of extra-space seats, and there was the big downside, namely that half the seats were rear-facing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, but there are some people you simply won't attract onto a bus unless the issue of personal space is addressed. I'm quite big (and a bit podgy, though if I lost that I wouldn't be much narrower), and I hate being pushed up against someone in a bus seat that simply isn't wide enough.

A thought - buses have got longer over the years by a varying set of bits of legislation. Is there any scope to change the law to make them a little wider, perhaps 10cm or so would suffice to be able to place a 5cm gap between the seats on each side, or say 3cm between the seats and 2cm from the side wall, also a significant comfort issue to the broad-shouldered bloke?

As for Greyhound, it failed in my view more because of First's complete inability to run any kind of new idea anywhere other than into the ground, and not because it was markedly inferior to Megabus (who indeed started off with low-quality packed-in double deckers and have now moved onto reasonably decent coaches). Though I have wondered if the likes of Megabus might do well to try some kind of slightly-premium-class, such as an extra tenner to have an extra few inches of legroom and sit in the front few rows. Though the difficulty with anything that makes their coaches non-standard is that they would have trouble when they hire coaches in.

As stated, Megabus Gold has been tried but in terms of daytime services, it hasn't really worked for the reasons I stated earlier.

In respect of bus services, 2+1 might seem attractive. However, the economics mean that you are effectively dropping your capacity and revenue potential by up to a quarter. At the same time, this is supposed to be a stimulus for greater ridership? That's why the Sapphire single deckers in the North East have now been supplemented with deckers but also why the experiment hasn't been perpetuated.

Of course, you could follow the Ryanair philosophy (AKA publicity stunt etc) and charge more to fatter people as they take up more space

In more seriousness, the question of wider vehicles is a fair question. Construction and use regs dictate a max width of 2.55m - this is the same for commercial vehicles although refrigerated vehicles can actually go to 2.6m (to allow for insulation whilst allowing two standard pallets to be accommodated). Therefore, there could be a move to 2.6m.

However, going "wider" is a much more difficult issue rather than going longer in terms of design so going to 2.7m width has issues in terms of road width take etc

 

[Kuyoyo]

I actively dislike slippy, sweaty fake leather seats and blue LEDs, personally. I vastly prefer the standard Arriva interior.

The original Sapphire concept had something genuinely good that genuinely would attract me - wider 2+1 seating upstairs - but this for some reason (cost no doubt) did not proliferate.

The problem with 2+1 seating is simply economics. To get the same capacity (and indeed if you're growing it), you need many more resources and increase costs.

It's why Megabus worked and Greyhound didn't (among other reasons )

Indeed TGW, and then you compare capacitys on the Sapphires.

In Wales, where they have stuck with the 2+1 seating capacity, the examples bought new seat 63 - 32 upper and 31 lower. The refurbished batch at Wrexham are 65 seaters, seating 33 downstairs but only 32 upstairs.
In contrast, here in the North East, our 57-reg refurbished examples seat 78 (45+33), the 4 09-reg examples seat 80 (47+33), the 2014 batch at Ashington seat 76 (47+29) and the 2015 batch are 78 seaters (45+31).

To put things into perspective, the refurbished Welsh batch were new as 80 seaters. So, in the refurbishment, they lost 15 seats. Logic, I think not! Hopefully they've realised this and their order for new deckers for the Wrexham route is 2+2 throughout.

As for in single deckers, 40 seats in a Pulsar on a trunk route between Durham and Darlington was never going to be a success when they were replacing Darts of same or similar seating capacity. The service has now grown to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a totally double decker operated service in 2017.

 

[Busaholic]

The Traveline Sw website does not need all the dRetail stated above. A point to point journey plan can be created by entering two points on the Plan Your Journey link
http://www.travelinesw.com/swe/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en&timeOffset=15

Thanks for that. My point was not that the information was not there somewhere but that you had possibly to make a journey to uncover it depending on what you googled in the first place or clicked on to. After all, I was only seeking the timetable, not real-time info, and the person contemplating bus travel but for whom other options existed might well give up in frustration.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem with 2+1 seating is simply economics. To get the same capacity (and indeed if you're growing it), you need many more resources and increase costs.

I've never seen the deal with 2+1 seating either. As I see it, if the bus is quiet then I'll have a double seat to myself. If the bus is full I'd rather be sat down in a slightly narrower seat than stood up marvelling at everyone else's luxury. There are limits to this, of course- 3+2 seats, on trains as well as buses, are horrific- but generally 2+1 seating is only required at a time when it is as its most impractical.

As for in single deckers, 40 seats in a Pulsar on a trunk route between Durham and Darlington was never going to be a success when they were replacing Darts of same or similar seating capacity. The service has now grown to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a totally double decker operated service in 2017.

Arriva refurbishing single deckers to Sapphire or Max standard really truthfully doesn't make sense, especially as IME the single deckers on the Blyth MAX routes always seem to be on the 0845ish arrivals into Newcastle :roll: