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EU Elections 2019

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433N

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Let me say from the outset that I'm not a blind follower of the SNP, but I have agreed with some of their policies, and they've had my vote on several occasions. That's not to say that I agree with everything they've done.

I really cannot understand what fills you with horror so much. Yes, they have independence as a primary objective, but aside from that their policies are generally left of centre, and frankly they've been better at opposing than Labour.

As for your statement about them turning Scotland into a hateful nation - it's just utter nonsense. I might suggest that it's Farage and his ilk that are promoting a hateful nation. Look a bit closer to home before you criticise us.

That's pretty much where I am.

As an Englishman living in Scotland, I find more hate and resentment directed from England to Scotland than vice versa .

Nicola Sturgeon has become the subject of the Two Minutes Hate for the right wing press in England.
 
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anme

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Sturgeon is a hate-filled nationalist. Much of what emanates from the SNP is an attempt to promote a “us and them” culture between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The SNP at Westminster behave like a bunch of naughty schoolchildren, I suspect many elsewhere in the UK turn off when they see the latest angry hysterical outburst from Blackford at PMQs.

I’ve never been able to reconcile the fact that Sturgeon hates one union with a passion, but seems to love another union. I guess someone would have to prop up an independent Scotland, and by definition it wouldn’t be English taxpayers like at the moment.

If you are in favour of one union, such as the United Kingdom, does that make you automatically in favour of another union, such as the EU, or maybe a possible future union, for example between England and some other random country on the planet?

Are all nationalists hate filled?
 

DarloRich

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having worked in both denmarks and sweden quite substantially for the last 10 years I can assure you that's not the case!
their left wing is nowhere near as left as corbyn.

The domestic policy agenda as expressed (badly) by Corbyn is quite close to Scandinavian ideas. What is different is the maturity and competence of the leaders involved and the obsession with Palestine expressed by Corbyn and his clique.
 

Senex

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Sturgeon and friends have attempted to turn Scotland into a hateful nation, and in that sense any criticism of Farage from their quarters is pot kettle black.
No, all Sturgeon and her friends have kept on doing is to remind people that Scotland is a nation and not just a part of the English state like East Anglia or (unfortunately) Yorkshire—something the England-based and -orientated politicians seem to love to ignore.
 

Senex

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If you are in favour of one union, such as the United Kingdom, does that make you automatically in favour of another union, such as the EU, or maybe a possible future union, for example between England and some other random country on the planet?

Are all nationalists hate filled?
Or can you be against one small union, like the so-called United Kingdom, but very strongly in favour of a developing other large union, like the European Union?
 

A Challenge

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So your original post on the issue made no point at all, did it? Voters of all political colours stayed at home.
Which side of the debate stayed at home more? I don't have a clue, turnout has always been low at EU elections (even in other EU countries, it is the first time in 25 years there has been a >50% overall turnout), though if I had to guess I would say it is more likely to be Brexiteers staying at home who don't think these EU elections should be happening.

On a different note, anyone know where the figures for spoilt ballots (across the EU) can be found?
 

edwin_m

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I'm not a politician or civil servant, I shouldn't be expected to know (unlike them) - to be honest I'm not sure what the best way out of this is
This sort of post shows the lack of any good solution to the problem and an indictment of nearly all politicians of whatever party who allowed us to get into it. While i'm not looking forward to what might happen during a referendum campaign, I believe a referendum, with an honest and respectful campaign, is the only way of addressing the grievances of whichever side loses. Remainers like me don't accept the 2016 result mainly because it was an unspecified option versus a clear option, and also because of the lies told and the potential illegal acts primarily by the Leave side.

With the benefit of hindsight, if Cameron really had to call the referendum then this issue should have been foreseen and the process laid down that a Leave decision would be no more than a mandate to negotiate a deal which would then be put to the public again.

That the Conservative government chose to go ahead with the invocation of A50 was partly policy, partly vote scoring.
While I'm broadly in favour of the EU I don't think it's perfect, and on this issue they bear a large slice of the blame. They refused to negotiate until A50 was invoked, with no apparent legal justification as far as I'm aware. If they'd allowed negotiations without that clock ticking in the background then the default option would have been to remain. I can't see that we'd have come up with anything much different from May's agreement and it could have been accepted or rejected on its own merits rather than trying to rely on the threat of no deal. If Parliament agreed a deal or to leave without one then A50 would have been invoked at that point, with the two year timeframe being the transition period.

I think it’s dangerous to consider the SNP as any kind of opposition. Never forget that their main raison d’etre is to achieve independence by whatever means they can. They’re certainly not there to stand up for or represent people in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

The idea of any kind of coalition involving the SNP fills me with horror. The DUP one hasn’t exactly been milk and honey, and I think an SNP one would prove worse.

Sturgeon and friends have attempted to turn Scotland into a hateful nation, and in that sense any criticism of Farage from their quarters is pot kettle black.
I'd say Sturgeon was the best leader of any British political party in recent history, and is actually putting forward a positive vision. I don't particularly agree with her but if I lived in Scotland (as I did during the early Thatcher years) I think I would support independence rather than rule by a Johnson or a Farage who aren't just totally opposed to the Scottish point of view, they don't even think about it.
Which side of the debate stayed at home more? I don't have a clue, turnout has always been low at EU elections (even in other EU countries, it is the first time in 25 years there has been a >50% overall turnout), though if I had to guess I would say it is more likely to be Brexiteers staying at home who don't think these EU elections should be happening.
Yet another reason we can't use these elections to get a definitive view of what the public thinks, though recent polls have suggested a smallish (but more than 52%) majority to remain. So bring on a referendum!
 

anme

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They refused to negotiate until A50 was invoked, with no apparent legal justification as far as I'm aware. If they'd allowed negotiations without that clock ticking in the background then the default option would have been to remain.

So you are suggesting that after the referendum, the British government should have said to the EU "there was a vote to leave to EU so we want to negotiate our departure but the default is still to remain". How do you think that would have turned out?
 

edwin_m

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So you are suggesting that after the referendum, the British government should have said to the EU "there was a vote to leave to EU so we want to negotiate our departure but the default is still to remain". How do you think that would have turned out?
No, they should have said "We wish to negotiate departure terms and if mutually acceptable terms are agreed then we will leave by according to the process laid down". Just like any other legislation, the status quo would still have applied until detailed new arrangements had been written into law.
 

A Challenge

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So you are suggesting that after the referendum, the British government should have said to the EU "there was a vote to leave to EU so we want to negotiate our departure but the default is still to remain". How do you think that would have turned out?
In any negotiation, if you say 'these are are red lines' then the other people can make all the things you want conditional on that and you can't really give in then!

I believe a referendum, with an honest and respectful campaign
And you think that there won't be lies in another referendum - there are enough lies in every major manifesto for every election (and some of the independents in the local elections) - what will be different about this one?
 

edwin_m

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And you think that there won't be lies in another referendum - there are enough lies in every major manifesto for every election (and some of the independents in the local elections) - what will be different about this one?
It may be something of a forlorn hope, but you've already declined to propose a better way out of this crisis so your criticism of mine doesn't impress me much.
 

radamfi

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It is a matter of national pride for a small country to be admitted to an international club. It shows that they have arrived on the world stage. For example, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania left the Soviet Union but were proud to join the EU. Scotland would be the same.
 

Alanko

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..and by definition it wouldn’t be English taxpayers like at the moment.

I don't understand those who think the union needs preserved at all costs yet also think that the English bankroll Scotland. Don't you want to make a saving?

Bloke with "we won now send them back" T-shirt

Probably a 37 spotter. Misses the glory days of doing Hitler salutes out a Mk1 window to encourage the driver to make more 'clag'.
 

anme

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No, they should have said "We wish to negotiate departure terms and if mutually acceptable terms are agreed then we will leave by according to the process laid down". Just like any other legislation, the status quo would still have applied until detailed new arrangements had been written into law.

Well, I have some sympathy with this, but the brexiters would never have accepted it.
 

anme

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It was the EU that stopped it happening. Unintended consequence.

The brexiters wanted to invoke article 50 as soon as possible. The EU didn't want to negotiate before article 50 was invoked - and why would they?

Anyway, what difference would negotiating before article 50 was invoked have made? The current deadlock has not been caused by a lack of time. There is a fully worked out withdrawal agreement on the table, or the options to leave without a deal or to withdraw article 50 and remain in the EU.

The current deadlock has been caused by the brexiters voting against brexit.
 

edwin_m

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The brexiters wanted to invoke article 50 as soon as possible. The EU didn't want to negotiate before article 50 was invoked - and why would they?
It would have avoided the uncertainty they are currently in, with the risk of a mutually damaging no deal.
Anyway, what difference would negotiating before article 50 was invoked have made? The current deadlock has not been caused by a lack of time. There is a fully worked out withdrawal agreement on the table, or the options to leave without a deal or to withdraw article 50 and remain in the EU.
Up to a point yes, the deal has been on the table for nearly a year and all this drama could have been happening last autumn. But then as now if there was no majority in Parliament for any of the other options the default would have been the status quo, not the no deal option which is the one Parliament opposes most strongly.
The current deadlock has been caused by the brexiters voting against brexit.
The deal was most recently opposed by a majority of 58 despite many of the Brexiters coming on side. I think there were and are enough people on the other side of the argument to make it unlikely to happen.
 

krus_aragon

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Because the question of Brexit is a proxy war between ideological sides of localism/nativism, and post-industrialism/globalism. Deep down, it is a visceral question and we all know it.
As hinted at the top of this page, SNP and Plaid sit in an interesting position on this scale, as they're certainly advocates of localism / nativism in their calls for independence, yet are ardently in favour of EU membership.
 

furnessvale

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Maybe politics should be like Eurovision, where the public are given only 50% of the say and the rest is made up of professional juries!!
I think you have just described the EU, provided the toothless European Parliament can be considered as 50% of the say.
 

edwin_m

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As hinted at the top of this page, SNP and Plaid sit in an interesting position on this scale, as they're certainly advocates of localism / nativism in their calls for independence, yet are ardently in favour of EU membership.
The Conservative party is equally contradictory in the opposite sense, being Unionist but against the European Union.
 

krus_aragon

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The Conservative party is equally contradictory in the opposite sense, being Unionist but against the European Union.
A good point, though I'd qualify it with the observation that the Conservative party includes some staunch Europhiles as well. (I don't know of any equivalent eurosceptics in SNP/Plaid, but that may be because they don't get as much headline time.)
 

A Challenge

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The Conservative party is equally contradictory in the opposite sense, being Unionist but against the European Union.
They are unionist in the sense of the Irish union (I'm guessing GB with the now Irish republic, so they failed there)
 

anme

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It would have avoided the uncertainty they are currently in, with the risk of a mutually damaging no deal.

Up to a point yes, the deal has been on the table for nearly a year and all this drama could have been happening last autumn. But then as now if there was no majority in Parliament for any of the other options the default would have been the status quo, not the no deal option which is the one Parliament opposes most strongly.

This is exactly why the brexiters wanted to invoke article 50. They wanted the default to be leaving the EU.
 
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