EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[pemma]

They don't function in that they cannot use the primary sanction a union has against an employer.
Which is ultimately to go on strike - the workplaces just aren't heavily unionised enough

So you think a union is only effective if they can force a business to practically shut down for a day or two? If that's the case why do unions (which could force a business to practically shut down) opt to take action like overtime ban, ban on rest day working etc.?

 

[HSTEd]

So you think a union is only effective if they can force a business to practically shut down for a day or two? If that's the case why do unions (which could force a business to practically shut down) opt to take action like overtime ban, ban on rest day working etc.?

Because those things force partial and very damaging shutdowns.

A strike by a few percent of the workforce would achieve nothing - and strikes by unskilled labour achieve things even less of the time.

With agency staff strike breaking becomes incredibly easy and hard to prove.

Really? What about McDonalds? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41143869
Or BA? https://www.gilestravel.com/uk-threatened-industrial-action-february-2017/
Or Fujitsu? https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/06/fresh_strike_action_ballot_planned_at_fujitsu/
Or DHL? http://motortransport.co.uk/blog/20...ustrial-action-carlsberg-contract-conditions/
Or Picturehouse cinemas? https://www.bectu.org.uk/news/2746
Or Interserve? http://www.fm-world.co.uk/news/fm-industry-news/strike-vote-for-interserve-workers-at-bbc/
Or the Ritzy in Brixton? https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...r-strike-over-london-living-wage-9232335.html

None of which have achieved any significant gains.
A tiny strike is easily crushed.
Especially since the staff have huge rent bills that make them easy to starve out.

 

[pemma]

Because those things force partial and very damaging shutdowns.

A strike by a few percent of the workforce would achieve nothing - and strikes by unskilled labour achieve things even less of the time.

A strike at a company where a small number of employees are union members can have the same effect as an overtime ban at a company where almost all employees are union members.

 

[HSTEd]

A strike at a company where a small number of employees are union members can have the same effect as an overtime ban at a company where almost all employees are union members.

Not when they can call the agency and get in a dozen staff to start tomorrow morning, no problem.

 

[pemma]

Not when they can call the agency and get in a dozen staff to start tomorrow morning, no problem.

There are very few job roles where that can happen and as it's illegal to bring in agency staff specifically to cover strike action I'm sure the union would take action. However, I accept there's grey areas e.g. postal sorting office staff pre-Christmas where there would normally would be agency staff supplementing the regular staff and Royal Mail could legitimately claim they need to bring in more additional agency staff than last year.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course, there is a difference between what is technically illegal and what employers can get away with! Especially if you are in a job with high staff turnover.

 

[AM9]

The Conservative Government will not be in power forever.

But there is absolutely no chance that the EU single market will ever move backwards in any way.

Which has always been of great comfort.

I am not entirely sure why the government would want to replace the LV or ATEX directives (not sure what the EMC one is?).

How does abolishing either of those really help anyone, ATEX particularily is a rather niche thing.

It was just a sample of the many technical directives that are there for 'our' benefit. EMC is electromagnetic compatibility. The directive is typical of those that the 'elf 'n safety is stuff and nonsence' mob would like to do away with because a) it costs money to do it right and b) they don't really understand it. In fact it can cost a whole lot more if EMC, (as in preventing problems) is ignored from litigation through to loss of life, - but that seems to go over the heads of some in industry, and quite a few dinosaur MPs who become their mouthpieces.

 

[HSTEd]

Of course, there is a difference between what is technically illegal and what employers can get away with! Especially if you are in a job with high staff turnover.

Indeed, I have known some employers who deliberately churn agency staff.

If I was a cynic I would say it was so they could claim that certain troublesome staff were not being eliminated because they were talking about unions and strikes, but just because they have natural wastage of a certain number of staff every week....

 

[najaB]

Indeed, I have known some employers who deliberately churn agency staff.

That really only works with the most unskilled of unskilled labour. Those jobs are at much more of a risk from robots and automation than the EU.

 

[HSTEd]

That really only works with the most unskilled of unskilled labour. Those jobs are at much more of a risk from robots and automation than the EU.

I never said they are at risk from the EU, I just pointed out that in those jobs (and the number of them is increasing every year), those protections are not worth the paper they are written on

 

[Groningen]

So Damian Green has gone.

 

[Howardh]

So Damian Green has gone.

We (literally) get our knickers in a twist over here regarding porn. Dunno what it's like in the Netherlands these days, but in the 90's you could walk past shops displaying porn in the windows - and I once saw two wee girls pointing and giggling at the display. Maybe the PC world has stopped all that these days?

 

[BlythPower]

We (literally) get our knickers in a twist over here regarding porn. Dunno what it's like in the Netherlands these days, but in the 90's you could walk past shops displaying porn in the windows - and I once saw two wee girls pointing and giggling at the display. Maybe the PC world has stopped all that these days?

So getting the boot for looking at porn at work is PC Gone Mad rather than Gross Misconduct?

 

[najaB]

We (literally) get our knickers in a twist over here regarding porn.

I don't think the problem was that he had porn, more that he had porn on a Government-provided computer. What he does in his own time is his own business, but his work equipment should be used for work.

 

[pemma]

I fail to see what Damian Green and porn on his computer has to do with the EU or the referendum result. However, it seems porn on his work computer is seen as unacceptable for someone who's the PM's deputy but it isn't seen as unacceptable for a MP representing the Conservative Party - given he's been forced to resign from the cabinet but not forced out of the Conservative party or forced to stand down as an MP.

 

[Groningen]

As far as i know the latest Dutch scandal was Camiel Eurlings. I believe it is quiet further!

From Wikipedia: he was prosecuted for assaulting his former girlfriend Tessa Rolink. The case was not brought before a court because a transaction settlement was reached between Eurlings and the Dutch public prosecution service, but details about the transaction have not been officially released. The transaction formally constituted an act of persecution and hence Eurlings now has a criminal record.

 

[Howardh]

So getting the boot for looking at porn at work is PC Gone Mad rather than Gross Misconduct?

I think it's more a case of what your contract allows you to do with work stuff in your breaks. Porn, ebay, BBC iplayer...if it's in your contract that you can't watch anything unrelated to work without good reason then, yes, it's gross misconduct. In my last job it was part of the contract. If Green had no such contract and what he (or whoever it was) was viewing legal material then - why the fuss? And he's a Tory non-dissenter so there's no way I would back him up.

 

[trash80]

He got the boot for lying about it, mind you if MPs were sacked for lying they'd all be signing on.

 

[Senex]

I think it's more a case of what your contract allows you to do with work stuff in your breaks. Porn, ebay, BBC iplayer...if it's in your contract that you can't watch anything unrelated to work without good reason then, yes, it's gross misconduct. In my last job it was part of the contract. If Green had no such contract and what he (or whoever it was) was viewing legal material then - why the fuss? And he's a Tory non-dissenter so there's no way I would back him up.

If there were any form of contract that ruled out anything unrelated to work, then well and good — misuse the computer and disciplinary measures follow. But this seems to have been a computer in an MP's office, and an MP is surely not in any normal sense an employee. And what was released by the police has told us that what was found was not illegal porn (if anyone understands what the distinction between legal porn and illegal porn is!), so no crime was committed. So would there have been such a fuss if downloaded football or cricket had been found, or bloodthirsty war-films, and if not, why not? But in the end it was the lying that did for him — but I too would have thought that if lying by an MP were such a serious offence, many more of them would have to go. And his departure still doesn't deal with the question of the illegal/improper (?) release of details of an investigation by retired police officers.

 

[BlythPower]

I think it's more a case of what your contract allows you to do with work stuff in your breaks. Porn, ebay, BBC iplayer...if it's in your contract that you can't watch anything unrelated to work without good reason then, yes, it's gross misconduct. In my last job it was part of the contract. If Green had no such contract and what he (or whoever it was) was viewing legal material then - why the fuss? And he's a Tory non-dissenter so there's no way I would back him up.

Plenty of work places would have no problem with people being on ebay or iPlayer on the works PC at lunchtime. I can't imagine any would allow you to watch porn, though... Must be a very liberal place where you work!

 

[Howardh]

Plenty of work places would have no problem with people being on ebay or iPlayer on the works PC at lunchtime. I can't imagine any would allow you to watch porn, though... Must be a very liberal place where you work!

Think you've misread my post - anything not work-related was off limit.

 

[pemma]

He got the boot for lying about it, mind you if MPs were sacked for lying they'd all be signing on.

Indeed. Boris even retains a cabinet position despite lying!

 

[Howardh]

Indeed. Boris even retains a cabinet position despite lying!

I think he's still there on the principle that virtually everything he utters is a lie, therefore the opposite is true so we know where we stand.....
Let's have one; "The EU can whistle for it's money"
which became "Oh, 40bn divorce bill, that's OK because Theresa says so".
Might be a few other examples if we dig deep enough!

 

[najaB]

Indeed. Boris even retains a cabinet position despite lying!

'Despite' or 'thanks to'?

 

[HSTEd]

So now we have learned that the Met will dig up dirt on you using probably illegal methods, so that a 'retired officer' who has absolutely nothing at all to do with the current police can leak it to the press later.

I wonder if the Met is upset about the budget restraint on the police......
It certainly sets a very disturbing precedent.

 

[AM9]

So now we have learned that the Met will dig up dirt on you ...

Well you have to have/do the dirt first for them to find it. It weeds out those who do it, - especially those who think that they are immune from being called out. He was actually sacked because he lied. If there was nothing wrong with what he did, he should have just admitted it and faced the criticism rather than dig himself a pit.

 

[AlterEgo]

So now we have learned that the Met will dig up dirt on you using probably illegal methods, so that a 'retired officer' who has absolutely nothing at all to do with the current police can leak it to the press later.

I wonder if the Met is upset about the budget restraint on the police......
It certainly sets a very disturbing precedent.

This kind of stuff has always happened and it’s why I don’t respect police officers by default; they must earn it.

There are some very good police officers around but there are far too many bent and bitter ones.

 

[najaB]

Well you have to have/do the dirt first for them to find it. It weeds out those who do it, - especially those who think that they are immune from being called out. He was actually sacked because he lied. If there was nothing wrong with what he did, he should have just admitted it and faced the criticism rather than dig himself a pit.

I don't always agree with the "Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear." argument, but I totally agree that once it became public (ignoring how it happened) he should simply have said "Yup, I did it." and it would have been a minor blemish on his record.

 

[furnessvale]

I think he's still there on the principle that virtually everything he utters is a lie, therefore the opposite is true so we know where we stand.....
Let's have one; "The EU can whistle for it's money"
which became "Oh, 40bn divorce bill, that's OK because Theresa says so".
Might be a few other examples if we dig deep enough!

Let's have the truth, "The EU can whistle for the £100bn they are demanding" is far closer to what Boris actually said.

 

[HSTEd]

Well you have to have/do the dirt first for them to find it. It weeds out those who do it

Virtually everyone has damaging information about them that could be used against them later if the police were to get hold of it.