EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

Again, you are arguing against someone who is making the same point as you.

People complain that that immigrants are a drain on public resources but ignore the fact that in "stealing all the jobs" the Government is getting effectively free tax revenue (the immigrant arrived as an adult so the Government hasn't had to pay to educate them, etc.). So far from being a drain (since they can't claim benefits until they've been here for some times) they represent a net gain to the country's finances.

That our Government then chooses not to invest in public services is entirely our fault.

And don't forget, when taxed they are paying our pensions and towards the NHS too. In fact they are a drain on the country they have arrived from!!

 

[StaffsWCML]

Of course that's not to say the left wing media is any better, there is often some pretty dire nonsense in them too. However the left wing publications seem to be in more of a decline than right wing ones, so I think it is safe to say that the latter exert more influence on public opinion than the former.

Channel 4 seems to be doing quite well at the moment. Obviously far more dangerous in the modern age is the drivel posted by activists on the Internet.

Again, you are arguing against someone who is making the same point as you.

People complain that that immigrants are a drain on public resources but ignore the fact that in "stealing all the jobs" the Government is getting effectively free tax revenue (the immigrant arrived as an adult so the Government hasn't had to pay to educate them, etc.). So far from being a drain (since they can't claim benefits until they've been here for some times) they represent a net gain to the country's finances.

That our Government then chooses not to invest in public services is entirely our fault.

I am not arguing, more so making the point that the whole issue is many times more complex than the standard responses we see. Calling Racists, Blame the Rich, The Rich must pay. The simple fact is every one of us needs to pay a lot more tax and we need to invest it if we want things to be better, some services also need to be revised/reformed to work in the modern era.

We were running a huge deficit even with all the extra revenue, the country was bankrupt, we couldn't afford what we were doing.

The main point I am making is we shouldn't be signing treaties that allow immigration; if as a country we have no made plans and provision for this. This is what we didn't do. Successive governments have failed. A large percentage of migration is from Non-EU countries. This is the kind of thing that stokes up the whole 'gain back control' rhetoric.

People don't see this, they blame the EU hence the leave vote.

 

[Struner]

Ach well... (should read Schrödinger of course, sorry)

 

[najaB]

Channel 4 seems to be doing quite well at the moment. Obviously far more dangerous in the modern age is the drivel posted by activists on the Internet.

I wouldn't describe Channel 4 as particularly left-wing, it just seems to be quite left in comparison.

 

[Bantamzen]

Channel 4 seems to be doing quite well at the moment. Obviously far more dangerous in the modern age is the drivel posted by activists on the Internet.

I'll be honest & say it has been a very long time since I've even watched a show on C4, let alone the news! But I will concede it, as a channel is certainly more left leaning.

As for the activists you mention (though I'm not clear if you mean left, right or both), yes there is a growing proliferation of pure nonsense, lies & very underhanded "fake news" out there. By far the worst sources (from both extremes of the political spectrum) come from memes, which way too many people take as read without even an attempt at verifying. It is genuinely concerning that public opinion can be formed from a random picture, overlaid with none-verifiable sources using nothing more than a mobile phone & a meme app. I've seen an awful lot of really quite ridiculous claims made that people I know on social media have run with, even though I will often present them with verifiable sources that contradict the messages. I still do try this method, but frankly its reaching such an epidemic stage that I might just have to start removing such people from social networks, even though that probably compounds the problem.

 

[StaffsWCML]

As for the activists you mention (though I'm not clear if you mean left, right or both).

Definitely both. Far more danger and misinformation here than in the written\tv press. Trouble is anyone can spout any nonsense and it can be retweeted/shared millions of times.

 

[Bantamzen]

Definitely both. Far more danger and misinformation here than in the written\tv press. Trouble is anyone can spout any nonsense and it can be retweeted/shared millions of times.

Indeed, it becomes even worse when politicians take to social media before taking advice, fact finding, thinking through what they are saying....

 

[najaB]

Indeed, it becomes even worse when politicians take to social media before taking advice, fact finding, thinking through what they are saying....

Leave Donald Trump out of this!

 

[StaffsWCML]

And Jezza!

 

[Bantamzen]

Leave Donald Trump out of this!

If only it were just he....

 

[Killingworth]

As another Bradfordian (or should that be Bratfudian? ), I grew up used to having Eastern Europeans living in our community. It didn't seem to upset people anything like as much as it does today, we just took it for granted. Yes there were a few bigots about, but generally people were able to just get on with life. Fast forward to today, we still have some Polish & Lithuanian neighbours, but these guys feel far less welcome than our neighbours did in the 1970s, fuelled in part by the increasingly nasty rhetoric emanating from the further reaches of the right wing political groups & media.

**Warning - Controversial Opinion Incoming **

One thing has always struck me about this whole "they're taking our jobs" argument, from a purely anecdotal position I've noticed that more and more "native" Brits seem increasingly unwilling to do the kind of work that Eastern Europeans are often accused of taking from us. There seems to be more desire from the former group to be propelled directly into management roles, rather than working more labour intensive jobs. This even seems to have started to leak into the IT world, at least in the public sector. A couple of years ago my team urgently needed some new coders with very specific languages in mind. But having put out an internal advert, practically none of the applicants had the experience required, but many of these seemed more interested in "gaining management skills". And I hear similar stories from friends and family in industrial, agricultural and other sectors. Perhaps part of the problem here is not free movement, but an increasing reluctance in our society to actually do any work. I do honestly believe that as an overall nation, we seem to have lost the kind of attitude that got us through some difficult years, replaced with the sort of attitude that would have seen us all packed onto the Ark 'B' from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy....

The IT experience tallies with the experience of both my sons. Eastern Europe is supplying the skills that aren't adequate acquired in tbe UK for one. In this type of work you don't have to live here to work 2, 3 or 4 days a week in East Anglia and the rest at home in Vilnius. Small companies don't have capacity to provide the depth of training required in the short time necessary to complete contracts. The other son seems to be finding many of the skills they need are better trained in India.

Brexit is an enormous red herring diverting us from tackling so many problems that have nothing to do with the EU, and many that will be made worse by leaving.

Sadly the bombastic zealots for Brexit are now beyond reason. We shall just have to sort it out once we emerge from the sink hole into which we seem destined to fall. Those sorting it out will be the younger more intelligent members of society, most of whom the opinion polls suggest voted to remain, so their pragmatic response may yet save us from total disaster. The global village will impose its own limits and solutions.

 

[Bantamzen]

The IT experience tallies with the experience of both my sons. Eastern Europe is supplying the skills that aren't adequate acquired in tbe UK for one. In this type of work you don't have to live here to work 2, 3 or 4 days a week in East Anglia and the rest at home in Vilnius. Small companies don't have capacity to provide the depth of training required in the short time necessary to complete contracts. The other son seems to be finding many of the skills they need are better trained in India.

Brexit is an enormous red herring diverting us from tackling so many problems that have nothing to do with the EU, and many that will be made worse by leaving.

Sadly the bombastic zealots for Brexit are now beyond reason. We shall just have to sort it out once we emerge from the sink hole into which we seem destined to fall. Those sorting it out will be the younger more intelligent members of society, most of whom the opinion polls suggest voted to remain, so their pragmatic response may yet save us from total disaster. The global village will impose its own limits and solutions.

In terms of skilled IT staff, its very true that the Indian subcontinent is a very plentiful source of programmers & engineers, and post-Brexit I fully expect it to become an even more open route into the UK employment market. I suspect some Brexiteers blissfully unaware of this possibility would have kittens if they knew this.

However I disagree about allowing ourselves to fall off the Brexit cliff. For many people the damage will be permanent, I for one do not believe that we will be able to dig ourselves out of the mire, at least nowhere near to the position at which we nosedived. And we all know by now that post-Brexit cliff will involve years of shouting, screaming, blaming and general chaos as we limp from hung Parliament to hung Parliament. Its going to take decades to even get close to where we are now, so I am firmly of the belief that we need to hit the emergency brakes, and rethink our position. This of course will send the Brexiteers into a frenzy, but frankly their chaotic approach to Brexit is one of the primary reasons we are where we are, so they've had their chance to get their way, its time for them to shut up & put up.

 

[SteveP29]

multiple people saying the Poles don't integrate with the English and they stick together.

This isn't aimed at you fowler, please don't take it as criticism.
Why shouldn't they hang around with people they share a language, home country, traditions, religion and history?
They're more likely to be able to understand, sympathise and relate to the people from their homeland.
Yes, they should make an effort to mix with the people of their adopted country, but when they face hostility and aggression for being here, you can understand why they don't.

As another Bradfordian (or should that be Bratfudian? )

The ever entertaining Tony Wright from the ever brilliant Terrorvision always introduces themselves on stage by saying 'Hiya, we're Terrorvision, from Bratfud'

**Warning - Controversial Opinion Incoming **

One thing has always struck me about this whole "they're taking our jobs" argument, from a purely anecdotal position I've noticed that more and more "native" Brits seem increasingly unwilling to do the kind of work that Eastern Europeans are often accused of taking from us. There seems to be more desire from the former group to be propelled directly into management roles, rather than working more labour intensive jobs. This even seems to have started to leak into the IT world, at least in the public sector. A couple of years ago my team urgently needed some new coders with very specific languages in mind. But having put out an internal advert, practically none of the applicants had the experience required, but many of these seemed more interested in "gaining management skills". And I hear similar stories from friends and family in industrial, agricultural and other sectors. Perhaps part of the problem here is not free movement, but an increasing reluctance in our society to actually do any work. I do honestly believe that as an overall nation, we seem to have lost the kind of attitude that got us through some difficult years, replaced with the sort of attitude that would have seen us all packed onto the Ark 'B' from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy....

Correct, this is why we have Windrush, British didn't want to be toilet attendants, bus conductors and labourers, these people were quite happy to come over here and work those jobs for more than they could get in their home country.
Asians discovered the niche market in the late 70's, where the British working man works 9-5 and with the advent of the majority of women having to also go out to work too, there were no shops open after 5pm because of that very British 9-5 working attitude, where would somebody get a pint of milk if the milkman hadn't delivered that morning, a loaf of bread to make the sandwiches for lunch the next day. Asians were quite happy to continue earning money by keeping their shops open longer. We now have a situation where most shops are open at a time when it's more convenient for workers. If it hadn't been for the Asians, this country would shut down after 5pm Monday to Friday and Sundays would be a dead day too (like they were when I was a kid and they were bloody boring). In recent times, we've had the Eastern Europeans, those that are qualified in skilled trades, electricians, bricklayers, plumbers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...stinian-terrorists-antisemitism-a8489731.html

There are many more. The guy is a pathological liar.

Congratulations, you found three examples, (one of which was debunked within a week, have a search on here to find the circumstances of what happened), say there are many more but either don't want to or can't provide examples, of course he'd be a pathological liar if you read the right wing rags that upthread you've proved to have formed your opinions from.

Most of the large scale fishing in British Waters was by European fleets. The British/Icelandic/Norwegian fishermen managed stocks quite well before the Common Fishing Policy.

BRITISH FISHERMEN SOLD OFF THEIR QUOTAS, how many times do you lot need to be told this?
British fishermen fished in Icelandic waters for decades until Iceland increased their exclusion zone.
Would there be a need for a common fishery policy (including a reduction in quota) if stocks were being managed quite well?
There'd be no need for the measures required in the articles in this link if they were being managed well, would there?
https://www.google.com/search?q=cod...rome..69i57.5319j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[StaffsWCML]

Congratulations, you found three examples, (one of which was debunked within a week, have a search on here to find the circumstances of what happened), say there are many more but either don't want to or can't provide examples, of course he'd be a pathological liar if you read the right wing rags that upthread you've proved to have formed your opinions from.



BRITISH FISHERMEN SOLD OFF THEIR QUOTAS, how many times do you lot need to be told this?
British fishermen fished in Icelandic waters for decades until Iceland increased their exclusion zone.
Would there be a need for a common fishery policy (including a reduction in quota) if stocks were being managed quite well?
There'd be no need for the measures required in the articles in this link if they were being managed well, would there?
https://www.google.com/search?q=cod...rome..69i57.5319j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I provided examples. I don't have time to sit he and detail all the times he lied, most of them are actual Corbyn talking.

He is a liar its a fact. He wants an election he doesn't want one, he wants to leave, he doesn't want to leave, he couldn't find a seat on a train yet had a seat, he was at a wreath laying but not actually taking part....seriously WTF how can you defend this man, he is a moron destroying the Labour party. Which reports were debunked within a week? Please provide detailed evidence of the debunking you talk of. I presume you mean in the case of Left wing rag views on which you have formed your opinions?

Of course I don't expect to be able to change the views of the Corbyn cult, I will expect a visit from the union bullies and Momentum soon to re-educate me in my ways.

You lot? What exactly does that mean? For the umpteenth billionth time I DO NOT ADVOCATE BREXIT if that is what you are referring to.

I'm talking more about huge Spanish and French fleet fishing in British waters, if people sold of their quotas then they have nothing to moan about. Its more a question of why fishermen from Spain should be fishing in British waters instead of buying the fish from British companies at a fair price, its unnecessary. Also if you really want to protect the fish stocks the Spanish and French should be fishing what is environmentally and locally available to them not hundreds of miles away in British waters. Its not exactly climate friendly to sail a boat from there to here.

As regards fish stocks its not as simple as quotas. If there is a problem then stop fishing, there are obviously bigger issues than need to be addressed such as the environmental factor causing the decline also. Of course that doesn't suit your agenda.

 

[najaB]

He wants an election he doesn't want one...

I can't speak to the others but this one is pretty easy to explain (and has been explained several times already in this thread), but I'll explain it again.

BoJo wanted Corbyn to fall into his heffalump trap - had Parliament agreed a mid-October election then there would have been no way for them to stop BoJo deciding to delay the election until October 31st (or November 3rd). His number one priority at the moment is preventing a no-deal Brexit. After that there will be time to conduct a normal election campaign.

 

[StaffsWCML]

I can't speak to the others but this one is pretty easy to explain (and has been explained several times already in this thread), but I'll explain it again.

BoJo wanted Corbyn to fall into his heffalump trap - had Parliament agreed a mid-October election then there would have been no way for them to stop BoJo deciding to delay the election until October 31st (or November 3rd). His number one priority at the moment is preventing a no-deal Brexit. After that there will be time to conduct a normal election campaign.

I understand that from the complexities of Parliament, although I do think Corbyn thought he would not win at present anyway. He is hoping for a negative surge if Boris is unable to deliver Brexit on 31st Oct.

I am not a huge fan of BoJo even less of Corbyn but I really hope Boris gets a deal, and Corbyn doesn't get his election. The Threat of that absolute numpty in charge is terrifying beyond belief, No Deal Brexit would be Childs play in comparison.

 

[Struner]

[...]
Why shouldn't they hang around with people they share a language, home country, traditions, religion and history?
They're more likely to be able to understand, sympathise and relate to the people from their homeland.
Yes, they should make an effort to mix with the people of their adopted country, but when they face hostility and aggression for being here, you can understand why they don't.
[...]

It also reminds me of English people living in Scotland.

 

[SteveP29]

It also reminds me of English people living in Scotland.

I have had no problems at all, I live with a Scotswoman and her children, I work with Scots, I play football and racketball with Scots.
Since the HR Manager at work left, I actually know no English people in Edinburgh, so even if I wanted to, I'd not be able to 'mix with my own'

 

[Struner]

Thumbs up!

 

[Struner]

(I was referring to people of a different nationality who don’t mix)

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm talking more about huge Spanish and French fleet fishing in British waters, if people sold of their quotas then they have nothing to moan about.

They sold the quotas! Hence your comment below, makes no sense.

Its more a question of why fishermen from Spain should be fishing in British waters instead of buying the fish from British companies at a fair price, its unnecessary. Also if you really want to protect the fish stocks the Spanish and French should be fishing what is environmentally and locally available to them not hundreds of miles away in British waters. Its not exactly climate friendly to sail a boat from there to here.

It wasn't necessary to sell the quotas. But they did. It wasn't necessary to sell Royal Mail, but the government did.

As regards fish stocks its not as simple as quotas. If there is a problem then stop fishing, there are obviously bigger issues than need to be addressed such as the environmental factor causing the decline also. Of course that doesn't suit your agenda.

Surely that is a quota - which can be down to zero. Iceland have managed their stocks very well since we were kicked out of their waters.

Environmental issues do need to be addressed, though it takes a concerted action of a group of countries to do that. Perhaps forming some sort of Geographic Union.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps forming some sort of Geographic Union.

Maybe based on the continent that the countries are in?

 

[Struner]

Maybe based on the continent that the countries are in?

I second that.

 

[fowler9]

I provided examples. I don't have time to sit he and detail all the times he lied, most of them are actual Corbyn talking.

He is a liar its a fact. He wants an election he doesn't want one, he wants to leave, he doesn't want to leave, he couldn't find a seat on a train yet had a seat, he was at a wreath laying but not actually taking part....seriously WTF how can you defend this man, he is a moron destroying the Labour party. Which reports were debunked within a week? Please provide detailed evidence of the debunking you talk of. I presume you mean in the cas

This isn't aimed at you fowler, please don't take it as criticism.
Why shouldn't they hang around with people they share a language, home country, traditions, religion and history?
They're more likely to be able to understand, sympathise and relate to the people from their homeland.
Yes, they should make an effort to mix with the people of their adopted country, but when they face hostility and aggression for being here, you can understand why they don't.



The ever entertaining Tony Wright from the ever brilliant Terrorvision always introduces themselves on stage by saying 'Hiya, we're Terrorvision, from Bratfud'



Correct, this is why we have Windrush, British didn't want to be toilet attendants, bus conductors and labourers, these people were quite happy to come over here and work those jobs for more than they could get in their home country.
Asians discovered the niche market in the late 70's, where the British working man works 9-5 and with the advent of the majority of women having to also go out to work too, there were no shops open after 5pm because of that very British 9-5 working attitude, where would somebody get a pint of milk if the milkman hadn't delivered that morning, a loaf of bread to make the sandwiches for lunch the next day. Asians were quite happy to continue earning money by keeping their shops open longer. We now have a situation where most shops are open at a time when it's more convenient for workers. If it hadn't been for the Asians, this country would shut down after 5pm Monday to Friday and Sundays would be a dead day too (like they were when I was a kid and they were bloody boring). In recent times, we've had the Eastern Europeans, those that are qualified in skilled trades, electricians, bricklayers, plumbers



Congratulations, you found three examples, (one of which was debunked within a week, have a search on here to find the circumstances of what happened), say there are many more but either don't want to or can't provide examples, of course he'd be a pathological liar if you read the right wing rags that upthread you've proved to have formed your opinions from.



BRITISH FISHERMEN SOLD OFF THEIR QUOTAS, how many times do you lot need to be told this?
British fishermen fished in Icelandic waters for decades until Iceland increased their exclusion zone.
Would there be a need for a common fishery policy (including a reduction in quota) if stocks were being managed quite well?
There'd be no need for the measures required in the articles in this link if they were being managed well, would there?
https://www.google.com/search?q=cod...rome..69i57.5319j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

No offence taken of course.

 

[fowler9]

Regarding the fisheries nonsense. Our country sold its rights and Nigel Farage who was on the EU fisheries committee attended precisely one out of forty two meetings whilst taking money of the EU to line his own pockets. It sickens me that people think the EU is the problem as when we leave these are the dregs of humanity we are left with. People say that when we leave the EU then we are in control, at least some people in this country keep voting these self serving bast*rds in to control though so how are we better off?

 

[Killingworth]

Regarding the fisheries nonsense. Our country sold its rights and Nigel Farage who was on the EU fisheries committee attended precisely one out of forty two meetings whilst taking money of the EU to line his own pockets. It sickens me that people think the EU is the problem as when we leave these are the dregs of humanity we are left with. People say that when we leave the EU then we are in control, at least some people in this country keep voting these self serving bast*rds in to control though so how are we better off?

It's all very well most of us on this thread agreeing that we should remain, but we are on the brink of leaving.

We don't like it but we aren't convincing those who just want to get it over with. It won't be over, but we aren't convincing them of that either.

LibDems say they will remain if they win the next election. Great, but as things stand they'll be lucky to get more than 50 seats, at least 200 short of leading any strong coalition.

I come back to the central issue. There is nobody of substance to fight the bulldozers of Brexit.

Who is using the pathetic performance of UKIP and Brexit in Europe against them? They've been making a laughing stock of Britain. UKIP lost most of their members in the last Parliament due to defection and general incompetence. Yet they still continue as Brexit to make a mockery of the democratic institution they want to wreck. In many ways they're worse than Sinn Fein, which really should be enough to make all think.

 

[Struner]

So you better get your act together then...

 

[Howardh]

Read that some Labour MP's want to back the Tories if they put the current or altered deal to the public in a referendum. Presumably against remain and not no deal. Seems the only way for parties to get out of the shambles they have made for themselves; be interesting how many voting Brexit think the deal in it's current form isn't Brexit enough so might as well vote remain next time??

 

[NoMorePacers]

...I am not a huge fan of BoJo...

For some reason I find this difficult to believe.

 

[najaB]

and despite the majority of the UK voted to leave

The majority of those who voted. It was only 38% of the electorate.