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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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meridian2

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Ok so surely its better to have European immigration (Christian countries) than from the rest of the world.

I think people will have a shock if some of what the leave advocates say is true. If, as they say, we should choose the skills we need from all over the world there is likely to be much less integration with new immigrants.

I won't speak for everyone but I personally find I have more in common with Europeans than Americans when it comes to values and my beliefs about the world. Even language which is one of the main barriers to European integration is a lot closer to English than a good majority of non European countries.

Can you honestly tell me, for example, that we have more in common with most commonwealth countries than France.
I wouldn't offer western Europe as an exemplar of thriving Christianity. You'd have to go to Africa, Asia and parts of the Americas for that. China numerically became the largest Christian country on the planet a few years ago.

I'm not anti-European, I spend lots of time in European countries. I am suspicious of the end game of the EU project and its influence on the cultures of its constituent nations.
 
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najaB

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Christianity is now a minority religion in the UK and continues to decline.
The monarch is head of state and of the established church. The coronation makes the relationship with crown subjects clear. Whether one agrees with the metaphysic is irrelevant.
Both of these statements are true, however more people in the UK say that they either have no/other religion than those who say that they are Christians.
640px-Bsa-religion-question.svg.png


So a minority of the population consider themselves to be Christians, even though it's the most common religion.

Edit: As an aside, I'm really curious what was responsible for the uptick in Christian beliefs in the 1998-2000 period.
 
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meridian2

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So a minority of the population consider themselves to be Christians, even though it's the most common religion.
It's certainly true that Sunday observance is a fraction of what it was in Victoria times, or even the 1950s. It's also the case that Britain is more materialistic, metaphysically and in terms of consumption. Neither of those detract from the Christian religious nature of governance.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Let us not forget what happened to Spain in historical times when the Moors invaded the Iberian peninsula under Tariq ibn-Ziyad, having crossed the Strait of Gibraltar with his army in 711AD.

It took a great deal of time to eventually defeat those invaders who sought to spread their faith. What would have occurred to western Europe if France had then succumbed and the domino effect then took place.
 
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Grimsby town

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I wouldn't offer western Europe as an exemplar of thriving Christianity. You'd have to go to Africa, Asia and parts of the Americas for that. China numerically became the largest Christian country on the planet a few years ago.

I'm not anti-European, I spend lots of time in European countries. I am suspicious of the end game of the EU project and its influence on the cultures of its constituent nations.

We are leaving the EU so it doesn't really matter what you think of the project. To be in the single market we have to accept the 4 freedoms which includes freedom of movement. We can leave the EU and be part of the single market but we have to allow European immigrants to come in freely.

Our economy is going to need immigrants and not just skilled ones but those who are willing to do lower paid manual jobs. So we can get them from EU or we can get them from the 'christian' countries you suggest. So do you think we should get immigrants from Uganda instead of the EU because they subscribe to these 'christian values' despite the fact they may be very anti homosexual relations or some other freedoms that the UK and most EU countries believe in.

If you want to start letting in more Chinese than EU nationals and expect them to integrate better you are in for a shock.
 
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AlterEgo

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Let us not forget what happened to Spain in historical times when the Moors invaded the Iberian peninsula under Tariq ibn-Ziyad, having crossed the Strait of Gibraltar with his army in 711AD.

It took a great deal of time to eventually defeat those invaders who sought to spread their faith. What would have occurred to western Europe if France had then succumbed and the domino effect then took place.

What relevance does this have to the EU?
 

meridian2

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We are leaving the EU so it doesn't really matter what you think of the project. To be in the single market we have to accept the 4 freedoms which includes freedom of movement. We can leave the EU and be part of the single market but we have to allow European immigrants to come in freely.

Our economy is going to need immigrants and not just skilled ones but those who are willing to do lower paid manual jobs. So we can get them from EU or we can get them from the 'christian' countries you suggest. So do you think we should get immigrants from Uganda instead of the EU because they subscribe to these 'christian values' despite the fact they may be very anti homosexual relations or some other freedoms that the UK and most EU countries believe in.

If you want to start letting in more Chinese than EU nationals and expect them to integrate better you are in for a shock.

What has changed in society in since the 1970s when the local population did lower paid jobs, especially as there is now a minimum wage structure? Secondly, there are a number of straw men that have grown legs from anything I wrote. I haven't said anything about "letting in more Chinese", or that labour should come from non-EU countries, or any anti-homosexual inference you appear to have gathered. I want to distance myself from any of those claims directly or by inference. They explicitly or implicitly do not represent my views.

It's hard to know if such fallacies are part of the debating strategy here, or discussion has become so polarised that if someone says one thing it must mean they believe a whole swathe of other things, or liberal politics has booby trapped language to an Orwellian degree, but I'm only prepared to be judged on things I actually say, not on anyone else's corollary of them!

My issues are not with any of the above, but suspicion about what ideas of Europe represents to the EU hierarchy, and where its aspirational boundaries lie. Much as I like individual Europeans, and European countries, I certainly would not want to be represented militarily (to give but one example) by anything as amorphous as a "Europeanism", especially in light of the C20th. I don't see the EU as a real and immanent threat to civilisation, and if the vote had gone the other way I would not be manning the barricades to overthrow it. I do however think it has got too big for its boots, has political ambitions far removed from its trading origins which it introduces by stealth, and has no way of squaring its claims of national sovereignty with its federalist aspirations.
 
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meridian2

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Perhaps you may have missed a recent page or two on this thread, as Christianity appeared to be the subject of a number of postings and it was with that in mind that I made my posting.

Always glad to help when I am requested.
At this point it might be worth pointing out that Christianity has not become a thread meme for proselytising purposes, but as a simple statement of fact that Britain as a constitutional monarchy is institutionally Christian, albeit of a particular post reformation variety. I wouldn't want moderators snipping it into a religious thread on a casual reading.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Since we've moved onto Christianity in this thread ... Some people may be amused by this card that came through my letterbox last week (shown in the image), claiming to offer a Biblical - yes, a Biblical - perspective on the EU!

Unfortunately, I suspect some misleading advertising is going on. After some Googling, it turns out the people offering me the free book are the 7th Day Adventist Church (oddly, a fact that's not mentioned anywhere on the card), and the author of the book (Ellen G. White) appears to have died in 1915. So unless Ellen had some remarkable and unique powers of foresight, I rather doubt that the book says anything at all about the EU. And since I don't wish to end up on a 7th day Adventist mailing list, I guess I won't ever find out for sure. ;)
 

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EM2

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What has changed in society in since the 1970s when the local population did lower paid jobs, especially as there is now a minimum wage structure?
Lots and lots of things. Just two examples, the massive growth of the services industry, so many people are working in places like call centres, and more disposable income, hence the explosion in the numbers of restaurants and cafes.
Short of time, so will revisit this later.

OK, a little more time!
More and more people are working in jobs that didn't even exist to anywhere near the same extent in the 1970s. Call centres are one example, warehouses for online retailers (Amazon and so on) are another, tech businesses like software development are yet another.
Online retailing especially has created new work or expanded old work. There are so many more delivery drivers now, in the 1970s pretty much everything came by the Royal Mail. Now any company that wants to survive has to have an e-shop, and a way of getting their goods to their customers. Then there's peer-to-peer selling (eBay for example). All those goods need to be shipped.
Bricks-and-mortar retail is expanding. Is there such a thing as half-day closing any more in the UK? On the contrary, stores are opening longer and longer, major supermarkets open for 24 hours a day for as much of the week as they are allowed, shopping centres open until 10pm, most town centres as busy on a Sunday afternoon as on a Saturday. Then there's all the stuff that these shops stock, that have to be grown, made or imported. I'd never seen a kohlrabi before the Millennium, you can buy pre-peeled, pre-sliced fruit and veg, you can buy strawberries in the depths of winter. Small businesses like cafés are opening earlier and closing later to cater for people working in those jobs. When I first started work in the mid-80s, you were lucky if there was a newsagent open much before 7am or after 6pm, unless it was at a station.
And that's before we get on to things like job share, so two people are working when only one was before.
 
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NSEFAN

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Lots and lots of things. Just two examples, the massive growth of the services industry, so many people are working in places like call centres, and more disposable income, hence the explosion in the numbers of restaurants and cafes.
Short of time, so will revisit this later.

OK, a little more time!
More and more people are working in jobs that didn't even exist to anywhere near the same extent in the 1970s. Call centres are one example, warehouses for online retailers (Amazon and so on) are another, tech businesses like software development are yet another.
Online retailing especially has created new work or expanded old work. There are so many more delivery drivers now, in the 1970s pretty much everything came by the Royal Mail. Now any company that wants to survive has to have an e-shop, and a way of getting their goods to their customers. Then there's peer-to-peer selling (eBay for example). All those goods need to be shipped.
Bricks-and-mortar retail is expanding. Is there such a thing as half-day closing any more in the UK? On the contrary, stores are opening longer and longer, major supermarkets open for 24 hours a day for as much of the week as they are allowed, shopping centres open until 10pm, most town centres as busy on a Sunday afternoon as on a Saturday. Then there's all the stuff that these shops stock, that have to be grown, made or imported. I'd never seen a kohlrabi before the Millennium, you can buy pre-peeled, pre-sliced fruit and veg, you can buy strawberries in the depths of winter. Small businesses like cafés are opening earlier and closing later to cater for people working in those jobs. When I first started work in the mid-80s, you were lucky if there was a newsagent open much before 7am or after 6pm, unless it was at a station.
And that's before we get on to things like job share, so two people are working when only one was before.
To add to this, the cost of living has increased since the 1970s, which is why most families require both parents to work in reasonably well-paid jobs. If we raise our children to work in offices and earn decent wages, it's no wonder they will reject the lowest paid jobs like cleaning and picking fruit.
 

EM2

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To add to this, the cost of living has increased since the 1970s, which is why most families require both parents to work in reasonably well-paid jobs. If we raise our children to work in offices and earn decent wages, it's no wonder they will reject the lowest paid jobs like cleaning and picking fruit.
And not only that, the country now has this obsession with university. Kids are made to feel like a failure if they don't go to uni. Who would work for three or four years to earn a degree, and then go out into the world of employment and work on a till? Although I guess that means you'd never pay your student loan off ;)
 

najaB

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To add to this, the cost of living has increased since the 1970s, which is why most families require both parents to work in reasonably well-paid jobs.
Has it really though? Some things are a lot more expensive in real terms, particularly housing, but food, clothing, cars, entertainment and many other things are cheaper.

I'd say that while there has been some increase, the two working parent phenomenon is due to a rise in desired living standards.
 
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GatwickDepress

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And not only that, the country now has this obsession with university. Kids are made to feel like a failure if they don't go to uni. Who would work for three or four years to earn a degree, and then go out into the world of employment and work on a till? Although I guess that means you'd never pay your student loan off ;)
Too true. I'm never going to be able to go to university, and it's very ostracising to hear everyone say "but you should". That said, there's a night stacker with a degree in microbiology at the shop I work at...
 

EM2

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Has it really though? Some things are a lot more expensive in real terms, particularly housing, but food, clothing, cars, entertainment and many other things are cheaper.

I'd say that while there has been some increase, the two working parent phenomenon is due to a rise in desired living standards.
And this goes back to the 'everyone wants to buy a house' argument. It is very difficult (but admittedly not impossible) to buy a family home on a single average working wage.
 

NSEFAN

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Has it really though? Some things are a lot more expensive in real terms, particularly housing, but food, clothing, cars, entertainment and many other things are cheaper.

I'd say that while there has been some increase, the two working parent phenomenon is due to a rise in desired living standards.
Perhaps instead I should have said "the cost of living to a standard to which we'd like"?
 

najaB

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Perhaps instead I should have said "the cost of living to a standard to which we'd like"?
And there's nothing wrong with wanting a better standard of living than previous generations. You just have to be prepared to work harder/longer/smarter than previous generations as well.
 

Dave1987

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And not only that, the country now has this obsession with university. Kids are made to feel like a failure if they don't go to uni. Who would work for three or four years to earn a degree, and then go out into the world of employment and work on a till? Although I guess that means you'd never pay your student loan off ;)

Very very much so! And those that do come out the other side with a pointless degree wear it like a badge of honour simply because they have been university educated. Apprenticeships and vocational courses are far far more useful to the economy as a whole. I think the stigma that is attached to not going to university has a huge amount to do with the mess this country is in with the skills gap.
 

Dave1987

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And there's nothing wrong with wanting a better standard of living than previous generations. You just have to be prepared to work harder/longer/smarter than previous generations as well.

"Modernisation" and "efficiencies" mean many people are working far harder and much longer hours and all times of the day and night for the same pay as previous generations were.
 

najaB

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Apprenticeships and vocational courses are far far more useful to the economy as a whole.
Both are equally valuable. The economy is suffering for a lack of STEM education and skills - apprenticeships are perfect for hands-on Technology and Engineering roles, but the Science and Maths roles need an academic education.
 

Domh245

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Both are equally valuable. The economy is suffering for a lack of STEM education and skills - apprenticeships are perfect for hands-on Technology and Engineering roles, but the Science and Maths roles need an academic education.

I hope you aren't making the mistake of confusing Engineering with being someone who is good at fixing things! I don't think that many of the things that I've learnt thus far (for example, Thermodynamics & Fluid Mechanics, Mechanics, Dynamics, Mechanical Design, Material Science, etc) would have been better taught in an apprenticeship - although some of the modules could have done with more hands-on laboratory sessions!
 

Dave1987

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I see our illustrious chancellor did not deny that Britain would become a tax haven if a deal with the EU was not done.
 

furnessvale

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I see our illustrious chancellor did not deny that Britain would become a tax haven if a deal with the EU was not done.

Agreed, but I don't see how that conflates with a low wage, low regulation (in terms of H&S, workers rights etc) economy, that some are claiming.
 

najaB

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I hope you aren't making the mistake of confusing Engineering with being someone who is good at fixing things!!
Oh, of course not. That's why I said apprenticeships are good for hands-on Technology and Engineering roles.
 

Senex

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Very very much so! And those that do come out the other side with a pointless degree wear it like a badge of honour simply because they have been university educated. Apprenticeships and vocational courses are far far more useful to the economy as a whole. I think the stigma that is attached to not going to university has a huge amount to do with the mess this country is in with the skills gap.
Absolutely right! The 5% or 6% at university in my day was probably too small a proportion, but the Blair idea of 50% taking the same sort of traditional university courses was just daft from the start. Why oh why did we have to turn first the Colleges of Advanced Technology into pretty traditional universities and then do the same with the polytechnics? Why have we never been able to develop and value something like the German Technische Hochschulen? Why have we never properly valued the applied sciences in this country (let alone valuing the skills of the really good and well-trained craftsman)?
 

HSTEd

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I am in the minority in that I believe that University is a good thing for people, not because it makes them better workers, but because it makes them better people.

If education is only about turning out workers, large parts of the population neednt go at all, or stop going after 11. You don't have to be literate or numerate to work on a production line, as my experience in the private sector has made painfully obvious.

Either we want to use education to produce better citizens, or it is an entirely pointless subsidy to big business to allow them to escape paying for staff training.

But I don't really think it is possible to send "too many" people to university.
My generation (and the one now appearing 'below me') have very little to look forward to except long lifespans.
Spending 3-4 years studying something which might not be useful for work is not a terrible misfortune.
 

Busaholic

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I am in the minority in that I believe that University is a good thing for people, not because it makes them better workers, but because it makes them better people.

If education is only about turning out workers, large parts of the population neednt go at all, or stop going after 11. You don't have to be literate or numerate to work on a production line, as my experience in the private sector has made painfully obvious.

Either we want to use education to produce better citizens, or it is an entirely pointless subsidy to big business to allow them to escape paying for staff training.

But I don't really think it is possible to send "too many" people to university.
My generation (and the one now appearing 'below me') have very little to look forward to except long lifespans.
Spending 3-4 years studying something which might not be useful for work is not a terrible misfortune.

I think further education is 'a good thing' (though not necessarily straight from school) but that too many universities do not deserve that status: unfortunately, the better polytechnics of the 1980s and 1990s have, in many cases, become 'so-so' universities, and the worst ones produce graduates who've spent a fortune on their education and probably won't earn any more than if they'd not gone to university. Technical colleges too played a significant part in our society back in the day.
 

najaB

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I am in the minority in that I believe that University is a good thing for people, not because it makes them better workers, but because it makes them better people.
I don't think you're in a minority at all. The nation needs people with higher education, as I mentioned earlier industry is constantly bemoaning the lack of STEM skills in the workforce. And, as you said, the learning in university isn't all about what's in the books.
 

Senex

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Spending 3-4 years studying something which might not be useful for work is not a terrible misfortune.
Spending 3-4 years studying something that really interests you and which you really are studying is an excellent thing to do, even if it might not be useful for work. Spending 3-4 years expecting to be taught (not the same thing at all as studying) just what is necessary to pass the examinations for a degree and no more is quite a different matter. I suppose it all depends on what you think universities are for. I think they are for people who have an interest and want to pursue that interest and feel that they have the time (and nowadays the money) to do so. The job of the university staff is to help them pursue their interest, not to act as crammers.
 
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