Every Tube ticket office to close

[plastictaffy]

Terrible shame. What about the poor people that, as my union rep puts it "The b*****d employer" put out on their earholes?? Once again, Profit before punters.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not surprised about Embankment, however (for now) Charing Cross is a very short walk away with an open ticket office.

Where's Embankment on that list?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, missed the post above the list, my apologies.

 

[island]

I'm not surprised about Embankment, however (for now) Charing Cross is a very short walk away with an open ticket office.

Might as well be on Mars for a confused tourist needing help, and they're not getting it from a perfunctory gateline attendant.

 

[Tetchytyke]

All fairly busy stations, but more used by commuters and locals and not likely locations for tourists to enter the system for the first time?

North Greenwich is used by nothing but tourists.

Still, if they can't get help at the tube station they can walk across the car park to the fully-manned Dangleway ticket office. And they won't even have to queue for help there!

 

[Caertroia]

North Greenwich is used by nothing but tourists.

I suggest you try using the station around 08.30.

 

[Busaholic]

North Greenwich is used by nothing but tourists.

Still, if they can't get help at the tube station they can walk across the car park to the fully-manned Dangleway ticket office. And they won't even have to queue for help there!

It is being increasingly used by refugees from the North Kent line to get to London Bridge and points west in the a.m. peak.

 

[Mojo]

It is being increasingly used by refugees from the North Kent line to get to London Bridge and points west in the a.m. peak.

And as an Interchange point for customers travelling by bus (or driving) from many points in South East London, who for various reasons do not wish to use NR services. There are also a tiny number of offices around there as well as a few educational establishments.

 

[jon0844]

they can walk across the car park to the fully-manned Dangleway ticket office. And they won't even have to queue for help there!

But then they'll wind up on the cable car with a souvenir photo, £10 poorer and wondering what just happened!

 

[jopsuk]

There's a huge number of people work at North Greenwich in all the entertainment, retail and catering.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Give it another 5 or 10 years and most underground stations outside zone 1 will be totally unstaffed.

 

[Antman]

Give it another 5 or 10 years and most underground stations outside zone 1 will be totally unstaffed.

I really don't see that happening

 

[Daz28]

There's a huge number of people work at North Greenwich in all the entertainment, retail and catering.

Tfl (or London underground) have offices at North Greenwich. They are in the building closest to the cable car.

 

[deltic]

Terrible shame. What about the poor people that, as my union rep puts it "The b*****d employer" put out on their earholes?? Once again, Profit before punters.

while it is always sad for people to lose their jobs if we hadnt kept adapting to new technology in the first place we wouldnt enjoy the lifestyles the population as a whole enjoys today. I remember starting work where we used to have large typing pools - all gone but there are more people in employment now than ever before. Not all progress is good but the balance has been amazingly positive over the last 100 years.

 

[Busaholic]

Give it another 5 or 10 years and most underground stations outside zone 1 will be totally unstaffed.

Not without repeal of most legislation and other regulations pertaining to any station that's underground, the abolition of fares and thus ticket barriers and the attendant staff and, above all, the complete emasculation of the appropriate Trade Union(s). Oh, and you'd need Farage and his gang of opportunists in charge to ensure the E.U. had no say in the matter.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Not without repeal of most legislation and other regulations pertaining to any station that's underground, the abolition of fares and thus ticket barriers and the attendant staff and, above all, the complete emasculation of the appropriate Trade Union(s). Oh, and you'd need Farage and his gang of opportunists in charge to ensure the E.U. had no say in the matter.

Guards are no longer on trains - even deep level tube trains, the rules were amended to allow it. Driverless trains are on the drawing board albeit in 10 or 20 years. Copenhagen is in an EU country and has a staff free metro with no one on trains and stations. The precedents for change are already being set. if LU offered severance they could lose as many staff as they wanted to overnight regardless of what the unions might say. What is the difference between an unstaffed station (or one with a booking office open for a few hours during the day) on the manline and the likes of Chorleywood, Perivale or most other lesser used outer stations ? ...or even busier stations - West Hampstead Thameslink is pretty busy in the evenings and is unstaffed. All you need is a central control with CCTV momitoring to watch over groups of stations and send 'troubleshooting' police/staff/security as required. What is special about having a staff presence at West Finchley when there aren't any at Alexander Palace ?

 

[100andthirty]

Tfl (or London underground) have offices at North Greenwich. They are in the building closest to the cable car.

Actually in the building next to the one that's closest to the cable car!

 

[Mojo]

What is special about having a staff presence at West Finchley when there aren't any at Alexander Palace ?

Except that part of new franchise agreements, many stations (including Alexandra Palace) will have staff present throughout the traffic day. Politically, there is pressure to retain staffing levels. One thing that is fairly unique about the Underground compared to NR services is that station staff go and deal with train (such as Person Ill On Train) and track incidents (such as trackside fires, and securing the points when there are signalling issues) as and when required. Given that you could potentially have a delay out in the sticks affect trains in the heart of London then this is still quite important. Now I do wonder with the possibility now of having teams of people shipped to incidents (in a police car?) how long Station Supervisors will need to keep up their track skills for (they already tried to get rid of them at stations without points but backed down), but I doubt station staff will stop attending incidents such as Passenger Emergency Alarm operation.

 

[Busaholic]

Guards are no longer on trains - even deep level tube trains, the rules were amended to allow it. Driverless trains are on the drawing board albeit in 10 or 20 years. Copenhagen is in an EU country and has a staff free metro with no one on trains and stations. The precedents for change are already being set. if LU offered severance they could lose as many staff as they wanted to overnight regardless of what the unions might say. What is the difference between an unstaffed station (or one with a booking office open for a few hours during the day) on the manline and the likes of Chorleywood, Perivale or most other lesser used outer stations ? ...or even busier stations - West Hampstead Thameslink is pretty busy in the evenings and is unstaffed. All you need is a central control with CCTV momitoring to watch over groups of stations and send 'troubleshooting' police/staff/security as required. What is special about having a staff presence at West Finchley when there aren't any at Alexander Palace ?

I notice you choose your stations to fit in with your arguments. How about Hampstead or even Archway rather than West Finchley? There's a fire at Hampstead and the lifts stop operating and the lights go out, or are so obscured by black smoke as to be useless. Will another Chairman have to fall on his sword following more (preventable) deaths? The lessons supposedly learned since Kings Cross on the back burner again? And all ticket barriers left open as they would have to be at an unstaffed station? Actually, if all others took leave of their senses I think the London Fire Brigade would put the mockers on it.

 

[Hophead]

Is there not a legal requirement for deep tube stations to be manned during operating hours. I can't see staff-free underground stations being permitted for a very long time.

 

[Busaholic]

Is there not a legal requirement for deep tube stations to be manned during operating hours. I can't see staff-free underground stations being permitted for a very long time.

Yes, there is : a minimum of two staff members at any one time.

 

[nidave]

Yes, there is : a minimum of two staff members at any one time.

Genuine question: Are there going to be any actual reduction in staff (what I mean by that is people loosing their jobs) or will they be redeployed in other areas? I know deep level stations are staffed 24 hrs but when the night tube starts will there be a need for more people at the gates etc.

 

[Busaholic]

Genuine question: Are there going to be any actual reduction in staff (what I mean by that is people loosing their jobs) or will they be redeployed in other areas? I know deep level stations are staffed 24 hrs but when the night tube starts will there be a need for more people at the gates etc.

I have no inside knowledge of this, but I'd imagine it would be on a station-by-station basis by risk assessment. I am sure, though, they will err on the side of caution to start with, with probable use of middle management as 'extras' in case of staff shortages.
I'd also expect in the fullness of time, assuming the experiment is deemed a success, for certain intermediate stations to stay closed, either because of low usage or, conversely, trouble on too many occasions. This would have to be programmed into systems, of course, but that's not intractable.

 

[SF-02]

Are there ways to add rail vouchers onto oysters away from tube ticket offices?

Used to be possible on at some railway stations but no longer I believe.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I notice you choose your stations to fit in with your arguments. How about Hampstead or even Archway rather than West Finchley? There's a fire at Hampstead and the lifts stop operating and the lights go out, or are so obscured by black smoke as to be useless. Will another Chairman have to fall on his sword following more (preventable) deaths? The lessons supposedly learned since Kings Cross on the back burner again? And all ticket barriers left open as they would have to be at an unstaffed station? Actually, if all others took leave of their senses I think the London Fire Brigade would put the mockers on it.

Deep level stations may need staff at present but that is only because of current standards and technology and even that may change in the future. As for West Finchley, Croxley, Ruislip Gardens and probably about another 60 or 70 similar stations there isn't really an argument. The Copenhagen Metro trains and stations are unstaffed - tunnel sections included. Investment in certain infrastructure elements could even see Hampstead as an unstaffed station in the future.
The fire arguments were raised with regard to OPO on deep level tubes (as in what happens to passengers to the rear of a train if there is a fire in the middle - say like the Southgate Tunnel fire on the Picc). The arguments against destaffing stations sound pretty similar to those against OPO on safety grounds.
Other metro systems do it and cope so why is London so much more special or different ?

 

[Busaholic]

Deep level stations may need staff at present but that is only because of current standards and technology and even that may change in the future. As for West Finchley, Croxley, Ruislip Gardens and probably about another 60 or 70 similar stations there isn't really an argument. The Copenhagen Metro trains and stations are unstaffed - tunnel sections included. Investment in certain infrastructure elements could even see Hampstead as an unstaffed station in the future.
The fire arguments were raised with regard to OPO on deep level tubes (as in what happens to passengers to the rear of a train if there is a fire in the middle - say like the Southgate Tunnel fire on the Picc). The arguments against destaffing stations sound pretty similar to those against OPO on safety grounds.
Other metro systems do it and cope so why is London so much more special or different ?

You wouldn't leave a shop open without staff, why would you do it with a station at three o'clock in the morning? Thousands of pounds of damage (actual cost plus cost of reinstatements, etc) could be caused within a couple of minutes and CCTV is no deterrent to the drunk or those wishing to impress some girl as to their manliness. Very few cities have tubes to the deep level of some of London's either.

 

[bicbasher]

I've waited at Erith station after 8pm, which is unstaffed and had people mucking about, teenagers crossing live rails etc.

Compare that to Forest Hill which is staffed until the last train thanks to the TfL contract with LOROL, even if it's just the gateline assistant on duty at midnight, it makes a whole lot of difference for the passenger with regards to safety.

Those AGA and TfL Rail/Crossrail stations in London which will soon see staff until the last service will notice a big difference when LOROL/TfL Rail replace the NR TOC.

 

[Daniel]

Genuine question: Are there going to be any actual reduction in staff (what I mean by that is people loosing their jobs) or will they be redeployed in other areas? I know deep level stations are staffed 24 hrs but when the night tube starts will there be a need for more people at the gates etc.

Reduction in staff is different to people loosing their jobs.

As far as I am aware, no-one is being made forcibly redundant.

However, yes, there is quite a large decrease in staff.

Over the past couple of years a lot of vacancies simply haven't been filled, in order to allow numbers to be reduced without too many staff being displaced.

You may have seen that TFL are recruiting station staff on fixed term, 12 month contracts. Some might say that this is because it is becoming impossible to staff the network properly under the current arrangements, because of the large amount of vacancies; staff are perhaps being brought in only temporarily in preparation for the actual/official reduction in numbers.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Deep level stations may need staff at present but that is only because of current standards and technology and even that may change in the future. As for West Finchley, Croxley, Ruislip Gardens and probably about another 60 or 70 similar stations there isn't really an argument. The Copenhagen Metro trains and stations are unstaffed - tunnel sections included. Investment in certain infrastructure elements could even see Hampstead as an unstaffed station in the future.
The fire arguments were raised with regard to OPO on deep level tubes (as in what happens to passengers to the rear of a train if there is a fire in the middle - say like the Southgate Tunnel fire on the Picc). The arguments against destaffing stations sound pretty similar to those against OPO on safety grounds.
Other metro systems do it and cope so why is London so much more special or different ?

Deep level stations will always need staff. There is no getting around that unless all the deep level stations are completely rebuilt to simplify them and old, unused sections are completely barricaded off and filled with concrete.

The EJL stations could go unmanned, however the deep level stations on the rest of the network would be a no no.

The layout of the stations are still largely as they were in Edwardian times, and without making them far more spacious and simple (I actually don't think this possible with the utility infrastructure just below the surface), there is just no way on safety grounds that they could allow them to be unmanned. LFB wouldn't allow it.

 

[island]

Are there ways to add rail vouchers onto oysters away from tube ticket offices?

Used to be possible on at some railway stations but no longer I believe.

Open to correction but there are still a small few National Rail booking offices with full Oyster facilities such as Marylebone, Victoria, and East Croydon.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You wouldn't leave a shop open without staff, why would you do it with a station at three o'clock in the morning? Thousands of pounds of damage (actual cost plus cost of reinstatements, etc) could be caused within a couple of minutes and CCTV is no deterrent to the drunk or those wishing to impress some girl as to their manliness. Very few cities have tubes to the deep level of some of London's either.

Thameslink is a busy commuter line with a 24 hour service 6 days a week and stations largely unstaffed.
It's not that I am advocating a de-staffed system but as those staffing costs become more of a funding issue then TfL are bound to look at how similar systems operate with far fewer staff. If laws and rules need amending and certain amounts needed spent on 'adequate' infrastructure changes then they will be done.
Even on deep level systems (Copenhagen's system is pretty deep) it has proven that unstaffed systems can work.
Whether we like it or not I stand by what I said initially in that station staff will go from at least those 60 to 70 stations where they become deemed unnecessary - or at least a 'roving' single supervisor will end up being in charge of 3 or 4 of the outer stations.