Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[hexagon789]

241 seats, 19 of which are 1st class.

Suggests two vehicles of 76 Standard and one of 70. Which I believe is exactly what a TOE, TO and TOD would provide in current layout.

 

[anamyd]

Interesting! I wonder if some recent publicity and knowledge of the very reasonable price has started to have an effect? I know that Geoff Marshall did a video not so long ago, I think it was in Modern Railways at some point recently as well and I think I've seen it appear on Twitter from time to time.

Both Geoff Marshall's and Paul Lucas' YouTube videos come to my mind. I'll be on it in mid-June with one or two others so hopefully there are seats available!

 

[anamyd]

Did Standard rather than First in the end. The bacon roll from the buffet was tasty though

 

[Phil from Mon]

Given that modifications, testing and training will be required before the scheduled service date of December, do we have any information yet as to when these will begin to be delivered to TFW?

 

[Cardiff123]

I had my first ever journey on a Mk 4 on LNER last week, I was surprised that they had toilets that still flush on to the tracks. I thought that Mk 4's were more up to date than Mk 3's. Did BR build any trains with CET tanks in the late 1980s or early 1990s?

The air con was ropey in the carriage I was in as well.

 

[hexagon789]

I had my first ever journey on a Mk 4 on LNER last week, I was surprised that they had toilets that still flush on to the tracks.

They don't, Mk4s have had retention tanks from new.

 

[Cardiff123]

They don't, Mk4s have had retention tanks from new.

Really? Because it was just a normal water flush toilet, not a vacuum toilet.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Really? Because it was just a normal water flush toilet, not a vacuum toilet.

Yes, it's a proper toilet on the Mk4 stock but it does feed into a retention tank. The proper flush or vacuum flush are simply methods of clearing the pan; that doesn't affect how it disposes of the output.

 

[hexagon789]

Really? Because it was just a normal water flush toilet, not a vacuum toilet.

Definitely, it was one of a number of 'improvements' over the Mk3s.

 

[anamyd]

Yes, it's a proper toilet on the Mk4 stock but it does feed into a retention tank. The proper flush or vacuum flush are simply methods of clearing the pan; that doesn't affect how it disposes of the output.

Exactly. The 159/0s also "originally" (as part of their conversion from brand new 158s in 1992) had water flush toilets with retention tanks. Both the Mark 4 and "original" 159/0 tanks are/were overflowable (no full tank shut off) therefore (would) start to discharge if used past full capacity. The 158s were designed to have tanks fitted originally but didn't.

 

[Cardiff123]

Exactly. The 159/0s also "originally" (as part of their conversion from brand new 158s in 1992) had water flush toilets with retention tanks. Both the Mark 4 and original 159 tanks are/were overflowable (no full tank shut off) therefore (would) start to discharge if used past full capacity. The 158s were designed to have tanks fitted originally but didn't.

That's even worse for track workers then. A full toilet tank emptying it's contents at 125mph. I presume that the overflow function will be shut off on TfW's sets. Of course water flush toilets will fill the tank much more quickly than vacuum toilets will.

 

[hexagon789]

That's even worse for track workers then. A full toilet tank emptying it's contents at 125mph. I presume that the overflow function will be shut off on TfW's sets. Of course water flush toilets will fill the tank much much more quickly than vacuum toilets will.

Sadly it's not a "function" more a design-fault.

 

[ainsworth74]

A full toilet tank emptying it's contents at 125mph. I presume that the overflow function will be shut off on TfW's sets.

It doesn't just spray the entire contents of the tank onto the track once it's full! It simply overflows in the same that that a bath overflow takes the excess whilst still leaving a full bath behind.

 

[anamyd]

It doesn't just spray the entire contents of the tank onto the track once it's full! It simply overflows in the same that that a bath overflow takes the excess whilst still leaving a full bath behind.

exactly

 

[anamyd]

Did the WYPTE 158

Did the WYPTE 158 what...?

 

[anamyd]

I presume that the overflow function will be shut off on TfW's sets.

I'm not sure there's a way to disable the overflow. I'm pretty sure the tanks are just tanks, and don't have the electronics of modern vacuum flush CETs, which TfW can of course choose to have fitted if they wish.

 

[hexagon789]

Did the WYPTE 158 what...?

Ignore, that got rather garbled sorry!

 

[Envoy]

Does anyone know when we are likely to see the Mk4 coaches from LNER show up on Transport for Wales services?

 

[sprinterguy]

December 2019 is the stated plan. The first rake of carriages - 82226, 11323, 10325, 12454 and 12225, was moved from Doncaster to Eastleigh yesterday for work to commence.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

What routes would they do?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

What routes would they do?

South Wales to Holyhead as the Mk3s, possibly the loco hauled North Wales coast trains also being run with Mk3s.

 

[sprinterguy]

South Wales to Holyhead as the Mk3s, possibly the loco hauled North Wales coast trains also being run with Mk3s.

Just Holyhead - Cardiff: Two sets working 1.5 round trips each, with a third set spare.

Unless the diagram changes in December have been pushed back without me realising, of course.

 

[sd0733]

What routes would they do?

Once they are working it looks like from RTT the diagrams could be these. Obviously theres still time for changes and/or delays to it yet.
1V91 05:34 Holyhead to Cardiff
1W93 11:24 Cardiff to Holyhead
1V98 16:51 Holyhead to Cardiff

1W91 07:02 Cardiff to Holyhead
1V96 11:34 Holyhead to Cardiff
1W96 17:16 Cardiff to Holyhead

 

[Flying Snail]

Having less capacity in 1st than the current stock is not ideal, particularly for the evening service. I was on it recently and as others have experienced it was full with upgrades turned away. This was with 23 seats not 19 as is proposed for the Mk4s.

Upping the rakes to 5 coaches using a full 1st class coach with the SV remaining as Std seating would seem like the simplest option as it would require no major alterations to the coaches as well as providing extra Std seating which is also often full and standing on the 17.16 from Cardiff

 

[hexagon789]

Having less capacity in 1st than the current stock is not ideal, particularly for the evening service. I was on it recently and as others have experienced it was full with upgrades turned away. This was with 23 seats not 19 as is proposed for the Mk4s.

Upping the rakes to 5 coaches using a full 1st class coach with the SV remaining as Std seating would seem like the simplest option as it would require no major alterations to the coaches as well as providing extra Std seating which is also often full and standing on the 17.16 from Cardiff

It's not less, TfW have two Mk3 RFM - 10249 the normal booked one seats 18 First; 10259 is the spare and seats 23.

Instead of one train with 18-23 first, you will now have 3 with 19 each;

 

[Flying Snail]

It's not less, TfW have two Mk3 RFM - 10249 the normal booked one seats 18 First; 10259 is the spare and seats 23.

Instead of one train with 18-23 first, you will now have 3 with 19 each;

All the times I have been on it the coach has had 4 seating bays, I even noted down arrangement for future seat bookings. Either it was the "spare" coach each time or both are actually 23 + 1 wheelchair which matches the as-built seating for 4-window RFM vehicles.

Either way, when I was last onboard in July it had 23 seats and one unoccupied wheelchair space and was full with more potential custom being turned away.

The capacity of another train several hours distant is irrelevant, I would expect that the increased 1st class provision across the day would promote more custom rather than the same spread across 3 departures.

 

[krus_aragon]

For that matter, what is the loading like in standard class these days?

I recall the timing of one of the original northnound runs took the slot of a commuter train towards Abergavenny, and it needed the three coaches of standard class to accomodate the rush-hour crowds. In all the time I've travelled (infrequently) on the southbound services, I never felt they were heavily loaded (as they pull in to Cardiff after 9am). The added reverse (north am, south pm) and lunchtime services aren't going to be swamped either, based on the loadings of the current services (which get a 2 or 3 car 175). The ~1720 departure from Bangor, which will likely be operated by these trains, is quite cosy when it's a 2-car. The frequency from Bangor will double from 2022, so the peak load will spread out a bit too.

It's only conjecture on my part, but perhaps they plan to have a whole carriage of 1st, and two and a half of standard. That could match up with the news (from the LNER withdrawal thread) that they're sending over a whole 1st class carriage & seats, and that the existing kitchen carriage is currently decked out for standard class seating.

(As a postscript, I've not encountered 1st class being more than half full myself, but that's from a small sample set of two journeys...)

 

[ainsworth74]

The capacity of another train several hours distant is irrelevant, I would expect that the increased 1st class provision across the day would promote more custom rather than the same spread across 3 departures.

Indeed I've been thinking that. The product on offer is extremely high quality (and, for now anyway, extremely good value) and is beginning to enter public awareness more than it was even two or three years ago (when it was regularly carting fresh air). So it strikes me that there is definitely a case for simply dropping in a PO (probably the current coach L which includes an accessible toilet) to the formation and keeping the SV seated as standard. That would give three and a half carriages of standard class and one of first. Surely that's not an excessive level of capacity? Also with more trains running with first class that's doubtlessly going to stimulate more demand for first class travel you'd have to think by the simple virtue of offering more first class journey opportunities!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I agree. Dining cars are so rare these days that there's a real opportunity to market them as an experience.

I've been surprised how many people say they would love to try the Gerallt Gymro but seem to think you have to do the whole route to enjoy the pleasure of a served meal. With Ludlow and Abergavenny's reputations as 'foodie' towns', I would have thought that there's an untapped market out there.

 

[hexagon789]

The capacity of another train several hours distant is irrelevant, I would expect that the increased 1st class provision across the day would promote more custom rather than the same spread across 3 departures.

I admit I failed to consider that the extra services might increase rather than spread first class demand.

Nevertheless, TfW did say 19 seats, so unless they've decided to change that, demand may well outstrip supply.

Indeed I've been thinking that. The product on offer is extremely high quality (and, for now anyway, extremely good value) and is beginning to enter public awareness more than it was even two or three years ago (when it was regularly carting fresh air). So it strikes me that there is definitely a case for simply dropping in a PO (probably the current coach L which includes an accessible toilet) to the formation and keeping the SV seated as standard. That would give three and a half carriages of standard class and one of first. Surely that's not an excessive level of capacity? Also with more trains running with first class that's doubtlessly going to stimulate more demand for first class travel you'd have to think by the simple virtue of offering more first class journey opportunities!

Or even making a PO into a composite so you have 23/24 or 35/36 first class seats rather than a full complement of 46. I imagine the seating is infinitely variable as with Mk3s that they could quite readily do that.