Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[yorkie]

It's not less, TfW have two Mk3 RFM - 10249 the normal booked one seats 18 First; 10259 is the spare and seats 23.

Instead of one train with 18-23 first, you will now have 3 with 19 each;

It's booked to have 23

 

[hexagon789]

It's booked to have 23

Thank you. In that case, TfW would, at least at present, look to be reducing first class capacity on individual services.

 

[Envoy]

What I think is regrettable is the fact that none of the morning departures heading north from Cardiff are at attractive times to catch tourist traffic. 7.02 is too early and 11.24 is too late. How much better it would be if a departure was at around 8.50am and the service marketed as a scenic route through the border country to Ludlow/ Shrewsbury and Chester? Those with the money would travel 1st class & have breakfast on board. Cardiff is the place which has the hotels and thus the potential tourists. By having a longer train at an attractive time for leisure travel, you could presumably offer lower prices & therefore attract more passengers? So, although the profit per passenger is lower, the greater numbers would surely give an overall greater revenue as the staff and fuel/track costs would be virtually the same.

I suppose that the Holyhead train that does leave Cardiff at a convenient time will be a bog standard 175?

 

[berneyarms]

What I think is regrettable is the fact that none of the morning departures heading north from Cardiff are at attractive times to catch tourist traffic. 7.02 is too early and 11.24 is too late. How much better it would be if a departure was at around 8.50am and the service marketed as a scenic route through the border country to Ludlow/ Shrewsbury and Chester? Those with the money would travel 1st class & have breakfast on board. Cardiff is the place which has the hotels and thus the potential tourists. By having a longer train at an attractive time for leisure travel, you could presumably offer lower prices & therefore attract more passengers? So, although the profit per passenger is lower, the greater numbers would surely give an overall greater revenue as the staff and fuel/track costs would be virtually the same.

I suppose that the Holyhead train that does leave Cardiff at a convenient time will be a bog standard 175?

You would never get the set back into Cardiff to operate the 17:16 northbound if you left that late.

There’s a balancing act here.

 

[krus_aragon]

What I think is regrettable is the fact that none of the morning departures heading north from Cardiff are at attractive times to catch tourist traffic. 7.02 is too early and 11.24 is too late. How much better it would be if a departure was at around 8.50am and the service marketed as a scenic route through the border country to Ludlow/ Shrewsbury and Chester?

The trouble is that a mid-morning northbound departure wouldn't get back to Cardiff for the existing (lucrative) evening departure. It couldn't be done without an extra diagram. Mind you, if it becomes extremely popular, there may be the opportunity to expand the fleet...

I suppose that the Holyhead train that does leave Cardiff at a convenient time will be a bog standard 175?

Until the Civitys arrive, yes. (There's a vague hint in the franchise paperwork that the First Class versions of them could see work on the Cardiff-Holyhead route; whether that's on the non-loco-hauled diagrams or just standing in for any loco failures is anybody's guess.)

Come to think of it, the Marches will also see an hourly First Class service to Manchester within a few years (although without the kitchen car).

 

[Envoy]

So, when is the former east coast mainline stock going to show up - ready to be hauled by 67’s?

 

[Cardiff123]

So, when is the former east coast mainline stock going to show up - ready to be hauled by 67’s?

By December, but of course then there's crew training, and the latest issue of RAIL magazine says the Mk 4's need gauge clearance before they can run.

 

[43096]

By December, but of course then there's crew training, and the latest issue of RAIL magazine says the Mk 4's need gauge clearance before they can run.

The stock (DVTs) needs modifying to work with the AAR multi kit on the 67s. The 67s also need modifying to work with the stock - I assume this is the need for traction/brake interlock.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Until the Civitys arrive, yes. (There's a vague hint in the franchise paperwork that the First Class versions of them could see work on the Cardiff-Holyhead route; whether that's on the non-loco-hauled diagrams or just standing in for any loco failures is anybody's guess.)

I had a rough and ready look at the current timetable and vaguely figured out that the number of Civity units with first class might be sufficient to either have first class throughout on the Manchester-Carmarthen/Milford route (ie. the 2-car unit being left at Swansea) or to have first class on all Holyhead-Cardiff workings. There wasn't enough units with first to do both, so if the Milford/Carmarthen services are confirmed as only 2-car (not sure whether they are) then it seems likely that Cardiff-Holyhead will be first class on all workings.

 

[krus_aragon]

I had a rough and ready look at the current timetable and vaguely figured out that the number of Civity units with first class might be sufficient to either have first class throughout on the Manchester-Carmarthen/Milford route (ie. the 2-car unit being left at Swansea) or to have first class on all Holyhead-Cardiff workings. There wasn't enough units with first to do both, so if the Milford/Carmarthen services are confirmed as only 2-car (not sure whether they are) then it seems likely that Cardiff-Holyhead will be first class on all workings.

I don't think Milford/Carmarthen are formally confirmed as 2-car, but all TfW's launch publicity described Swansea-Manchester as receiving first class.

Alternatively, perhaps TfW are considering using some First Class Civitys on Cardiff-Holyhead on the weekends, with the Mark 4 rakes just working weekdays.

 

[Nym]

The stock (DVTs) needs modifying to work with the AAR multi kit on the 67s. The 67s also need modifying to work with the stock - I assume this is the need for traction/brake interlock.

Given they're currently in Eastleigh having this done...?

 

[Prestige15]

According to Modern Rail (issue 853) TfW were concidering on leasing more than 12 MK coaches.

 

[43096]

Given they're currently in Eastleigh having this done...?

If you read the post(s) I was replying to, I was stating that there was more to do than gauge clearance. That they are at Eastleigh with 3 months or less to go and there is still clearance and crew training to be done suggests there may be a delay.

 

[krus_aragon]

According to Modern Rail (issue 853) TfW were concidering on leasing more than 12 MK coaches.

Is there a timeframe on that? i.e. were they thinking about it back when the franchise was being let, or was this something they've considered in the past year?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to Modern Railways (issue 853, October) TfW were concidering on leasing more than 12 MK coaches.

The actual quote was "He [the TfW spokesman] declined to comment on whether TfW was considering leasing more than 12 Mk4 vehicles".
The piece does say the Mk4 kitchen car will be standard class.

 

[Envoy]

The actual quote was "He [the TfW spokesman] declined to comment on whether TfW was considering leasing more than 12 Mk4 vehicles".
The piece does say the Mk4 kitchen car will be standard class.

Does this mean that standard class passengers will be able to have proper meals?

 

[ainsworth74]

The piece does say the Mk4 kitchen car will be standard class.

Interesting! So does that mean they're taking on a full PO (first class vehicle) or are they going to go with a composite coach?

 

[59CosG95]

There is currently a move from Doncaster Works to Eastleigh Works conveying some more Mk4s... 66009 in charge with what looks to be half of BN24. (DVT 82229 on the rear) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13963/2019/10/01/advanced

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting! So does that mean they're taking on a full PO (first class vehicle) or are they going to go with a composite coach?

I don't know enough about the current Mk4 vehicles, but the message was that no vehicles would be modified from their current use (except to work with class 67s).
So the kitchen car would be whatever is current on the LNER sets, but seemingly without 1st class (ATW/TfW's has always been Premier rather than 1st).

 

[sprinterguy]

There is currently a move from Doncaster Works to Eastleigh Works conveying some more Mk4s... 66009 in charge with what looks to be half of BN24. (DVT 82229 on the rear) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13963/2019/10/01/advanced

Yep - Vehicles 11324, 10328, 12447 and 12219 specifically.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't know enough about the current Mk4 vehicles, but the message was that no vehicles would be modified from their current use (except to work with class 67s).
So the kitchen car would be whatever is current on the LNER sets, but seemingly without 1st class (ATW/TfW's has always been Premier rather than 1st).

Interesting, I wonder if they have revised the first class capacity from the quoted 19 then?

 

[59CosG95]

Yep - Vehicles 11324, 10328, 12447 and 12219 specifically.

Thanks for the update on the specifics there, @sprinterguy.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't know enough about the current Mk4 vehicles, but the message was that no vehicles would be modified from their current use (except to work with class 67s).
So the kitchen car would be whatever is current on the LNER sets, but seemingly without 1st class (ATW/TfW's has always been Premier rather than 1st).

If they're not modifying beyond that required to work with the 67s then that definitely means a full first class vehicle of 40 odd seats as the buffets on Mk4s are all standard class seating. That's quite a boost in 1st class capacity!

 

[hexagon789]

The actual quote was "He [the TfW spokesman] declined to comment on whether TfW was considering leasing more than 12 Mk4 vehicles".
The piece does say the Mk4 kitchen car will be standard class.

Nice! Maybe more than 3 sets then, certainly I think more than 3 services each-way would not be a bad decision.

 

[hexagon789]

If they're not modifying beyond that required to work with the 67s then that definitely means a full first class vehicle of 40 odd seats as the buffets on Mk4s are all standard class seating. That's quite a boost in 1st class capacity!

41-46 seats depending on the exact vehicle. (The ones with disabled toilets and catering stowage seat less).

 

[sprinterguy]

Thanks for the update on the specifics there, @sprinterguy.

No problem.

41-46 seats depending on the exact vehicle. (The ones with disabled toilets and catering stowage seat less).

42 first class seats as they appear to be utilising the 113xx vehicles.

If they're not modifying beyond that required to work with the 67s then that definitely means a full first class vehicle of 40 odd seats as the buffets on Mk4s are all standard class seating. That's quite a boost in 1st class capacity!

1 carriage of first and 2.5 of standard seems like Voyager-esque standards of poor space utilisation. Though I admit that I don't know how high first class loadings are on the current 'Premier' set, and at least there'll be catering facilities!

 

[hexagon789]

42 first class seats as they appear to be utilising the 113xx vehicles.

Are they the ones with the accessible toilet or the catering store?

 

[ainsworth74]

1 carriage of first and 2.5 of standard seems like Voyager-esque standards of poor space utilisation. Though I admit that I don't know how high first class loadings are on the current 'Premier' set, and at least there'll be catering facilities!

Well quite! My experience of current loadings is that they have about the right level of capacity with having 1st class buffet vehicle. It's been full I think one time I used it (mostly with Forum members ) but even on that occasion I don't recall anyone being turned away. So personally I'd have said a 42 seat first class coach would be excessive meanwhile looking at loadings on the service from Cardiff on an evening in standard only 2.5 coaches would be an under provision. Unless they're planning on running them longer? Three full coaches of standard, a buffet and a first class coach?

 

[hexagon789]

Well quite! My experience of current loadings is that they have about the right level of capacity with having 1st class buffet vehicle. It's been full I think one time I used it (mostly with Forum members ) but even on that occasion I don't recall anyone being turned away. So personally I'd have said a 42 seat first class coach would be excessive meanwhile looking at loadings on the service from Cardiff on an evening in standard only 2.5 coaches would be an under provision. Unless they're planning on running them longer? Three full coaches of standard, a buffet and a first class coach?

Perhaps the potential extra vehicles are not for more sets but rather to lengthen them?

 

[sprinterguy]

Are they the ones with the accessible toilet or the catering store?

With the disabled toilet.

Perhaps the potential extra vehicles are not for more sets but rather to lengthen them?

That would be my first assumption from such an announcement.