Extra 317/7's for FCC

[Tom C]

Sorry if this is mentioned elsewhere but FCC are to receive a number of 317/7's to cover for 365's whilst on C4 exams and refurbishment.

I would guess that these will come from the batch dumped at Eastleigh but its not clear how many. They are rumoured to be entering traffic in March.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not heading for Northern then!

 

[Manchester77]

It was reported on wnxx that as well as 722 testing it's new traction package, that 709 and 719 were out testing too. Perhaps the two are linked?

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Greater Anglia is trialling 317722 when it's ready for passenger service. 317709 & 719 are also on GA's insurance at the moment- but only to be used in accordance with 317722's testing at this time.... 317732 is also at Ilford, but there's been no noises as to what is happening with this unit.

 

[SprinterMan]

Sorry if this is mentioned elsewhere but FCC are to receive a number of 317/7's to cover for 365's whilst on C4 exams and refurbishment.

I would guess that these will come from the batch dumped at Eastleigh but its not clear how many. They are rumoured to be entering traffic in March.

Any sources? I really hope this is true They were perfect on the Stansted Express trains, it's a shame NXEA then used them on rush-hour commuter work they couldn't handle very well before GA stored them. They are very similar to 365s inside in layout so hopefully they get a nice new home. This is the best news I have heard since Manea got a real service and Shrewsbury got a London train back (next timetable change).

It was reported on wnxx that as well as 722 testing it's new traction package, that 709 and 719 were out testing too. Perhaps the two are linked?

5P16 2341 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Stowmarket
5V17 0720 Stowmarket to Ilford E.M.U.D.

These were the times the 317/7s were out on test.

Adam

 

[Aictos]

I'm only guessing here but if anything I guess they be used on Kings Lynn's and Cambridge Cruisers, can't see them on Peterborough's or stopping/semi fast Cambridge's.

Still this is news to me, be good to see them on the ECML though

 

[pemma]

Not heading for Northern then!

It will probably mean that FCC won't be requesting to hang on to 319s as cover during the 365 refurbishment though.

 

[Aictos]

It will probably mean that FCC won't be requesting to hang on to 319s as cover during the 365 refurbishment though.

I'm guessing here but 319s on ECML duties to cover the 365 refurbishment? Won't be the first time they've been in Kings Cross

 

[jopsuk]

They are very similar to 365s inside in layout

Um, no? The 317/6 are fairly similar to 365s, but with full (rather than mini) tables in standard and a large First Class at one end of the unit (rather than small ones at both ends) there's very little similarity between a 317/7s layout and a 365 other than being 2+2 standard class seating. I'd reckon a 317/7 will have less seats and less standing space?

 

[Aictos]

Um, no? The 317/6 are fairly similar to 365s, but with full (rather than mini) tables in standard and a large First Class at one end of the unit (rather than small ones at both ends) there's very little similarity between a 317/7s layout and a 365 other than being 2+2 standard class seating. I'd reckon a 317/7 will have less seats and less standing space?

Just wondering but are the 317/6s 2+2 seating? I know I took one home one day from Liverpool Street to Cambridge and left wishing the FCC 317s were refurbished like the 317/6s that Greater Anglia has

 

[A-driver]

I'm guessing here but 319s on ECML duties to cover the 365 refurbishment? Won't be the first time they've been in Kings Cross

Will never happen in a million years...They are struggling to cover all diagrams with drivers at the moment and that is with putting off GSMR training for asking as possible. No way they could spare every driver to do at least 2 days on a traction and brake handling course for 319s.

 

[Aictos]

Will never happen in a million years...They are struggling to cover all diagrams with drivers at the moment and that is with putting off GSMR training for asking as possible. No way they could spare every driver to do at least 2 days on a traction and brake handling course for 319s.

I know, in a fantasy world it be nice but like you said, it ain't viable.

 

[jopsuk]

Just wondering but are the 317/6s 2+2 seating? I know I took one home one day from Liverpool Street to Cambridge and left wishing the FCC 317s were refurbished like the 317/6s that Greater Anglia has

Greater Anglia has:
15 317/5, identical to FCC's 317/1 fleet
12 317/8, which are the same but with some seats taken out and replaced by luggage racks- the budget Stansted Express conversions
24 317/6. These are what were orginally 317/2. They have 2+2 seating throughout, except for a small section of 3+2 underneath the pantograph- if this bit was 2+2 the power conduit would be in the aisle. First class is situated at one end, taking up half the carriage. Full tables in 1st, mini tables (often missing) in standard- most standard seating is in bays, not airline.

 

[306024]

.......They were perfect on the Stansted Express trains, it's a shame NXEA then used them on rush-hour commuter work they couldn't handle very well before GA stored them.......

Their use on the GEML (2 x 12 car trains) was part of the DfT Scheme to increase the number of seats into Liverpool St. Given their low seating capacity and the comparatively small number of GE drivers that signed 317s there was little choice what workings they were used on. Still it only lasted eight weeks before the DfT changed their policy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm only guessing here but if anything I guess they be used on Kings Lynn's and Cambridge Cruisers, can't see them on Peterborough's or stopping/semi fast Cambridge's.

Still this is news to me, be good to see them on the ECML though

Do Kings Lynn drivers still sign 317s?

I'd expect to see the 317s on the Cambridge semi-fasts and to Peterborough, which is what FCC mostly use them on at the moment.

 

[Tom C]

I'm guessing here but 319s on ECML duties to cover the 365 refurbishment? Won't be the first time they've been in Kings Cross

319's would be useless on the GN as they are only route cleared between Copenhagen Junction and Hornsey and will have the same restrictions as 313's (St Neots and Royston) as they have conductor shoes. More to the point, it is already bad enough having 4 different fleets which cannot work with each other without making it 5.

Do Kings Lynn drivers still sign 317s?

I'd expect to see the 317s on the Cambridge semi-fasts and to Peterborough, which is what FCC mostly use them on at the moment.

All drivers sign all GN units.

They will not be diagrammed to Kings Lynn, simply because of the nature of the operation with splitting and joining. They will be doing what the other 317's do, slow Cambridges, slow Peterboroughs and peak hour jobs to Royston.

 

[Electrostar]

Why were these taken off Stansted Express in the first place. I seem to recall much fanfare when they were refurbished with new headlights, blue and orange exteriors and improved interiors. As noted above, quite different than the budget version that followed.

 

[43074]

Why were these taken off Stansted Express in the first place. I seem to recall much fanfare when they were refurbished with new headlights, blue and orange exteriors and improved interiors. As noted above, quite different than the budget version that followed.

New 379s dedicated to Stansted Express were introduced from 2011, and therefore the 317/7s were removed from these services: originally the intention was to use the 379s in trios on the Express and then cascade the /7s and /8s to provide additional capacity on the West Anglia route but a downturn in passengers on the Stansted Express rendered 9 379s avaliable for use elsewhere, because pairs would be adequate to meet demand. So these replaced the 317/7s which were then stored, I suppose because of their higher leasing costs and low seating capacity (comparable to other 317s).

 

[306024]

The 317/8s were created so Stansted Express trains could become 8 cars. Therefore both 317/7s and 317/8s were replaced by 379s at the same time. The 317/8s were then diagrammed into the same pool as 317/5s as there is little seating capacity difference, and used to lengthen inner suburban services. Then came the competition for the GA franchise, where Abellio put forward an option to reduce the fleet required, and the DfT bought it.

 

[jopsuk]

as a passenger, as far as I can tell the /5, /6 and /8 fleets are not at all diagrammed separately- they seem to be utterly interchangeable on Cambridge services.

 

[Class377/5]

319's would be useless on the GN as they are only route cleared between Copenhagen Junction and Hornsey and will have the same restrictions as 313's (St Neots and Royston) as they have conductor shoes. More to the point, it is already bad enough having 4 different fleets which cannot work with each other without making it 5.

Thameslink is getting ready to do four incompatible fleets while also having the 313 on the route playing too (with a two track railway in the middle too). GN gets to have five classes from 2016 anyway.....

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably Royston-Cambridge Science Park (Chesterton Sidings) will have to be cleared for units with shoes, as will St Neots- Peterborough.

GN services, continuing as they do to Kings Lynn, share tracks with a further EMU that they're not compatible with, even for rescue purposes (though there's an adaptor) in the shape of the 379- and also 153, 156, 158 & 170 DMUs.

They do also work in amongst 180s, HSTs and 91/Mrk4s.

Busy route, with lots of train types that aren't physically compatible!

 

[A-driver]

Thameslink is getting ready to do four incompatible fleets while also having the 313 on the route playing too (with a two track railway in the middle too). GN gets to have five classes from 2016 anyway.....

The Brighton mainline has been doing that for a while anyway with 442, 171 , 377, 319, 455/6, 350s for a while, Thames turbos and soon 700, none of which are compatible with each other and, far more problematic than the GN EMUs which can at least all pull each other clear of the line, all have different couplings, auto boxes in different positions and some have pipes whilst others have boxes etc!

 

[A0wen]

They will not be diagrammed to Kings Lynn, simply because of the nature of the operation with splitting and joining. They will be doing what the other 317's do, slow Cambridges, slow Peterboroughs and peak hour jobs to Royston.

But surely that's not right if they're to provide cover for the 365s whilst they're being overhauled?

Last few times I've traveled on the ECML, it was 317s on the outer suburban stoppers and 365s on the 'fasts' (i.e. those which stop at Finsbury Pk then Stevenage).

If that's the case then surely these additional 317s will be covering the 365 duties, which means the fasts? Except, perhaps Kings Lynn for the splitting/joining reasons you've outlined.

 

[Tom C]

But surely that's not right if they're to provide cover for the 365s whilst they're being overhauled?

Last few times I've traveled on the ECML, it was 317s on the outer suburban stoppers and 365s on the 'fasts' (i.e. those which stop at Finsbury Pk then Stevenage).

If that's the case then surely these additional 317s will be covering the 365 duties, which means the fasts? Except, perhaps Kings Lynn for the splitting/joining reasons you've outlined

There are only two 317 diagrams and two 321 diagrams which run all day anyway. The rest of the work on the outers is in the hands of 365's. They will definately not go through to Kings Lynn as it will require a pretty heafty recast of services at Cambridge but there is plenty of scope for other work. There are 365 diagrams which are peak hours only as well where it is quite normal for other units to substitute.

Presumably Royston-Cambridge Science Park (Chesterton Sidings) will have to be cleared for units with shoes, as will St Neots- Peterborough.

313's are route cleared to Peterborough and Cambridge but only with the conductor shoes removed so I suppose it could be possible to run 319's if you remove the shoes but as this is going on in the next couple of months, I cannot see there being spare 319's to run anyway.

 

[306024]

as a passenger, as far as I can tell the /5, /6 and /8 fleets are not at all diagrammed separately- they seem to be utterly interchangeable on Cambridge services.

The /6s are diagrammed separately. As for what turns up on the day that is a different story.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably Royston-Cambridge Science Park (Chesterton Sidings) will have to be cleared for units with shoes, as will St Neots- Peterborough.

Shoes on the 700 retract when not in use. As do 377s.

 

[A0wen]

There are only two 317 diagrams and two 321 diagrams which run all day anyway. The rest of the work on the outers is in the hands of 365's. They will definately not go through to Kings Lynn as it will require a pretty heafty recast of services at Cambridge but there is plenty of scope for other work. There are 365 diagrams which are peak hours only as well where it is quite normal for other units to substitute.

I'm surprised it's skewed quite so far in favour of the 365s. As I said, the last few times I'd used FCC, I'd ended up with a 317 - must have been unlucky (on the grounds I much prefer the 365s as a passenger).

 

[philjo]

A number of the peak hour fast services that start/terminate at Royston are usually 365s. I have noticed that a couple of these services are currently 321s when I have used them since the timetable change - they were usually 8 car 365s until December.

 

[317666]

As a passenger, as far as I can tell the /5, /6 and /8 fleets are not at all diagrammed separately- they seem to be utterly interchangeable on Cambridge services.

Indeed my experience is that whatever 317 turns up wherever - even in the latter days of their use on Stansted Express it wasn't uncommon to see a /5 or /6 on a Stansted train with a /8 or rarely a /7 to Cambridge.