F1 2013

[Bungle73]

One of the BBC commentators pointed out that the race track is defined by the white lines so strictly speaking they shouldn't be using the kerbs the way they do anyway.

I wonder if anyone would ever try to enforce that rule? I suspect not...

They're allowed to put two wheels over the line, but not all four. There was a race a little while ago where Vettel overtook someone (I think it was Jenson) completely off the track. He had to give the place back. On the other hand it's generally accepted that when taking corners drivers ride up onto the kerb.

 

[bnm]

This wasn't 'riding up on to the kerbs' though. Tyres were cut by being off the circuit.

 

[Bungle73]

This wasn't 'riding up on to the kerbs' though. Tyres were cut by being off the circuit.

They weren't off the circuit. They had two wheels on the kerb, which is allowed. Drivers have been doing that (in all forms of car racing) for years.
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Driving protocol and penalties

20) DRIVING

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8683/fia.html

By that definition if a car still has two wheels on the track it has not left the circuit.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Strictly speaking the kerbs are not on the circuit as they are outside the white lines and as it is the back edge of the kerb that seems to have done the damage (to a lot of tyres), it is fair to say the tyres were off the track even if, officially, the cars were on it.

Vettel overtook Button at the German Grand Prix last season when off the track (the race highlights are on the BBC Sport website) but he did not give the place back, he was given a 20 second penalty after the race dropping him from second, in the results, to fifth.

 

[Liam]

Vergne and Perez's blowouts were frightening as Raikkonen and Alonso were so close behind. If a large bit of rubber and steel hits a driver's head, the helmet might not be much use. Felipe Massa was understandably quite upset in his interview on Sky after the race.

At least Vettel didn't win.

 

[Harbon 1]

Vergne and Perez's blowouts were frightening as Raikkonen and Alonso were so close behind. If a large bit of rubber and steel hits a driver's head, the helmet might not be much use. Felipe Massa was understandably quite upset in his interview on Sky after the race.

At least Vettel didn't win.

Yes! The roar from the crowd was spectacular! Great race for all the wrong reasons, best since Brazil last year

 

[Bungle73]

Strictly speaking the kerbs are not on the circuit as they are outside the white lines and as it is the back edge of the kerb that seems to have done the damage (to a lot of tyres), it is fair to say the tyres were off the track even if, officially, the cars were on it.

But it's allowed, which is the point. Otherwise we might as well go back and re-evaluate decades of motor racing, because everyone does it, and has done for years.

Vettel overtook Button at the German Grand Prix last season when off the track (the race highlights are on the BBC Sport website) but he did not give the place back, he was given a 20 second penalty after the race dropping him from second, in the results, to fifth.

Yes, I just said that, and as I said, that situation was entirely different.

 

[bnm]

They weren't off the circuit. They had two wheels on the kerb, which is allowed. Drivers have been doing that (in all forms of car racing) for years.

:roll:

I'm talking about the tyres being off the circuit. Not the cars.

Perfectly allowable, but I contend that 'straightening' the corner in such a way has risks. One of those risks is damage to the tyres.
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It's not a simple case of Pirelli being the villains of the piece is all I'm saying.

Kerb design and driver choices have to be thrown into the mix.

Drivers have a powerful voice when they mention safety, so it's unlikely that the FIA will say, "Well, if you weren't putting a large part of your car off the circuit the tyres wouldn't have been damaged."

Use the kerbs and use the grasscrete by all means. Keep 1mm of the car on the circuit to comply with the sporting regulations if it means you'll save a few thousandths of a second. Just be aware of the risks in doing so.

As for the actual failures of the tyres, well that does need to be addressed. You can't have large chunks of rubber flying around like that.

But this is cause and effect remember.

 

[Ivo]

Felipe Massa was understandably quite upset in his interview on Sky after the race.

I wish I had seen that, but having to rely on the BBC makes it kind of impossible. I have a strong soft spot for Massa which probably developed right at the end of Schumi's first career.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But it's allowed, which is the point. Otherwise we might as well go back and re-evaluate decades of motor racing, because everyone does it, and has done for years....

Remember when the 'sausage' kerbs came in and Massa broke the front suspension on them twice in the race weekend? Did anyone blame the tyres, car, team or track? No, they said Massa tried to get too close to the kerb and it was basically his fault. So whilst taking a line that means half your car is over the kerb may be legal, it doesn't make it the best course of action and it doesn't make everyone else to blame for the consequences.

If the cause of the tyre problems is drivers taking too much kerb, then drivers need to look at themselves as much as anyone else.

Bear in mind that even after the teams made drivers aware of the problem, and where it was happening, they still choose to run that line through the corners, that isn't Pirelli's fault.

.....Yes, I just said that, and as I said, that situation was entirely different.

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear there, I was partially correcting you in that Vettel didn't give the place back, he got a penalty for it. I should perhaps have made that clearer.

....As for the actual failures of the tyres, well that does need to be addressed. You can't have large chunks of rubber flying around like that.

But this is cause and effect remember.

The issue really has come to be because Pirelli were asked by the teams and FIA to make tyres that didn't get punctures from debris at high speed for this season (or atleast to make them less likely). The changes have made them less prone to punctures, but have apparently left the tyres more prone to this kind of problem, first with 'delamination' earlier in the season and now with total failure. Imo, delamination was probably the better option of the three.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Is it bad that I roared along with the crowd when Vettel's car broke down?

I'm not gonna blame Pirelli entirely, I see the fault of the tyre failures down to a number of factors, including the fact that a safety change was blocked by a number of teams. I'm sick of Pirelli bashing, quite frankly. They've provided the tyres that were asked of them by the FIA and the fans, and they get crap for it. The last thing we need is rock-hard tyres like the 2010 Bridgestones again, so lets hope there isn't a knee-jerk reaction to this on Wednesday..

 

[D365]

Reviving this thread on the topic of Vettel again...

What do you all think of how the podium crowd at almost every other race now seem to at least partially jeering at Vettel. I personally find this lack of respect to be very disrespectful, no matter what one might think about Vettel's stunning performance. Glad that the cheering and gracious fans overpower the rest in the end, and that others in the sport are supportive of him.

Good race it was at Singapore anyway, frustration on the Webber side for Red Bull though again. Disappointing also how the to-be successor crashed out too. Although it was a kind gesture of Alonso's to return the favour of delivery to the pits, the manner of it wasn't very suitable tbh.

 

[Searle]

Completely disrespectful and there's no place for it in a global sport like F1. Especially after he's just won a race, I'm just glad he doesn't let it get to him

 

[90sWereBetter]

Well, apart from the inevitable VETTELWINSLOL-fest at the front, that was a pretty decent grand prix this morning.

If Nico Hulkenberg doesn't get the second Lotus seat for next season, it will be disgraceful. That was a superb performance, dragging and keeping the awful Sauber in 4th, holding off Hamilton brilliantly. This chap is a future world champion, if someone will finally give him equipment to let him fight at the top all of the time. Maybe he'll also get a team mate that isn't completely useless like Gutierrez is ...

If I were Force India, I'd sack both Di Resta and Sutil at the end of the season. Ever since the British GP, they've been absolutely nowhere, and they both drove like utter tools today. I've never seen anyone crash at the spot Di Resta ended his afternoon, and the less said about Sutil sliding into poor Mark Webber, the better really.

What the hell were the Korean marshals doing out there? Just letting Webber's car burn away at the side of the track, and then sending a Jeep out on track WITHOUT the permission of race control, with the cars still going around at racing speed. It was hilarious, but downright dangerous as well. They were like this last year, just leaving Rosberg's stricken Merc at the side of the track for 8 laps, which ruined the race last season.

 

[DavidBrown]

Indeed, like you say the Korean marshals have previous. I know the media were playing it down a little (unusually for them), but I do wonder if that is the final nail in their coffin for next year. They were extremely lucky in that the truck was on the long straight, and therefore about as visible as it was ever going to be. I dread to think what would have happened if it was going to an incident in sector 3. It's a shame, as it's a great track in completely the wrong location.

You're also right in that Force India, and its drivers, have completely lost it - you can't put their constant mistakes down to the change in tyre compound. Prehaps the team need to get Grosjean and Maldonado in to show them how to drive a disciplined race!

 

[Liam]

When I read a fire engine was on the track I was expecting a big red thing with blues and two's.... Disappointing.

 

[David]

I wonder if di Resta's crash was down to the suspension breaking, and not because he made a mistake. His wheel looked to be at a strange angle compared to the way he went into the barrier.
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Changing subjects a bit, and talking about fan safety now ....

Quite a few fans had a very lucky escape in Houston yesterday when Dario Franchitti was involved in a big crash on the final lap of the Indycar race there ....

BBC clip showing the accident - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motorsport/24425903

Clip from a fan showing the accident - http://m.click2houston.com/news/loc...sh/-/16714936/22306500/-/n5p35lz/-/index.html

 

[hairyhandedfool]

NBC footage on Youtube shows another camera angle. Reports suggest thirteen fans were injured with two going to hospital. Franchitti 'escaped' with fractures of his ankle and spine. I'm sure we all wish them a speedy recovery.

 

[Butts]

Can anyone explain how Red Bull have gone from also rans with the odd win for Coulthard to World Beaters with Vettel in such a short space of time.

Surely Ferrari and Mclaren et al with decades of experience and wads of cash shoud be able to at least be competitive.

 

[gswindale]

Adrian Newey.

He joined around the same time and I believe the regs also changed a bit.

 

[Liam]

Can anyone explain how Red Bull have gone from also rans with the odd win for Coulthard to World Beaters with Vettel in such a short space of time.

Coulthard never won for Red Bull.

Money goes a long way in F1. Look at the similarities between Red bull now and Benetton in the 90's. Lots of money, able to bring in the best staff. I can't see Red Bull collapsing in the same way Benetton did though. Schumacher went to Ferrari and took half the Benetton payroll with him, Benetton never recovered until Renault bought them over.

 

[Bungle73]

Well, apart from the inevitable VETTELWINSLOL-fest at the front, that was a pretty decent grand prix this morning.

If Nico Hulkenberg doesn't get the second Lotus seat for next season, it will be disgraceful. That was a superb performance, dragging and keeping the awful Sauber in 4th, holding off Hamilton brilliantly. This chap is a future world champion, if someone will finally give him equipment to let him fight at the top all of the time. Maybe he'll also get a team mate that isn't completely useless like Gutierrez is ...

If I were Force India, I'd sack both Di Resta and Sutil at the end of the season. Ever since the British GP, they've been absolutely nowhere, and they both drove like utter tools today. I've never seen anyone crash at the spot Di Resta ended his afternoon, and the less said about Sutil sliding into poor Mark Webber, the better really.

What the hell were the Korean marshals doing out there? Just letting Webber's car burn away at the side of the track, and then sending a Jeep out on track WITHOUT the permission of race control, with the cars still going around at racing speed. It was hilarious, but downright dangerous as well. They were like this last year, just leaving Rosberg's stricken Merc at the side of the track for 8 laps, which ruined the race last season.

Get rid of Paul di Resta? One of the better drivers on the gird; another who deserves to be put in a decent car. A lot of his recent retirements haven't been his fault.

 

[D365]

Coulthard never won for Red Bull.

Money goes a long way in F1. Look at the similarities between Red Bull now and Benetton in the mid-90s. Lots of money, able to bring in the best staff. I can't see Red Bull collapsing in the same way Benetton did though. Schumacher went to Ferrari and took half the Benetton payroll with him, Benetton never recovered until Renault bought them over.

Exactly the thoughts I've had. Noting the odd rumours of him moving to Ferrari, one would be rather surprised to see Vettel leave while the team continues in this form. Though didn't we say that about Hamilton to Mercedes?

 

[90sWereBetter]

Horrible horrible news. Maria de Villota, the Marussia test driver who suffered a freak accident in testing last year which cost her her right eye, has been found dead in a hotel room this morning. She was only 33.

RIP Maria, 1980-2013. :cry:

 

[90sWereBetter]

If you are in possession of a Twitter account, you should go follow Taki Inoue. He was a Japanese driver who raced in 1995 for the hopeless Footwork team, scoring a grand total of nil points. He's often referred to, by himself even, as the worst F1 driver ever. He is absolutely hilarious with his take on current F1 goings on.

Well, this dire season finally comes to a close at Brazil, and I for one will be glad when it's over. After probably the best F1 season ever in 2012, this season has just been awful in almost every way. If this state of affairs continues into 2014, let's just say I'll be watching a heck of a lot more BTCC.

Here's hoping some bugger finally stops the VETTELWINSLOL steamroller.

 

[David]

Here's hoping some bugger finally stops the VETTELWINSLOL steamroller.

What's the betting there will be a "problem" with Vettel's car in Brazil, meaning he finishes second and Webber gets a win to finish his F1 career ....

 

[alex17595]

What's the betting there will be a "problem" with Vettel's car in Brazil, meaning he finishes second and Webber gets a win to finish his F1 career ....

NIL it will be the other way around.

 

[Butts]

I'd like to put todays drivers in a car from the 60's/70's and see how they get on.

None of todays bunch are a patch on Jim Clark, Graham Hill or Jackie Stewart who put their lives on the line every time they went out.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What's the betting there will be a "problem" with Vettel's car in Brazil, meaning he finishes second and Webber gets a win to finish his F1 career ....

The team can tell Vettel anything they want, but Vettel has form for not following instructions and a previous statement of intent to boot!

 

[melena]

What's the betting there will be a "problem" with Vettel's car in Brazil, meaning he finishes second and Webber gets a win to finish his F1 career ....

That would not surprise me. The very least it will be a Red Bull 1-2