Fatality - Hither Green

[150222]

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Then you are a danger to yourself and others.


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[S19]

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

So through your own selfishness you'd put the lives of yourself and others at risk?

Well done.

 

[142094]

Why do people detrain themselves? Looking out for number one will be the main reason. Has anyone died as a result of sitting on a train for a few hours due to an incident? Probably not.

Now, not only is going onto the track unless told to do so by staff idiotic and dangerous, it no doubt will encourage others to do so as well and will hinder getting other trains moving.

I'd hope that anyone detraining without staff assistance would be prosecuted in the same way as any other tresspasser.

 

[transmanche]

Looking out for number one will be the main reason. Has anyone died as a result of sitting on a train for a few hours due to an incident? Probably not.

But people have become dangerously ill, especially on crowded commuter services.

 

[142094]

But people have become dangerously ill, especially on crowded commuter services.

But no doubt will have had some sort of pre-existing condition, which could have arose at any other time.

On the other hand, if someone was taken ill on a stationary train and people decided to detrain themselves, this could actually make it harder to get to the person with the illness.

 

[westcoaster]

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

Would you do the same on a plane circling to land and being delayed, I think not. In all my years on this forum I think that's the silliest post I have ever read, totally dumbfounded:roll:.

 

[Hydro]

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

I'd love to jump off the train and have all lines blocked, all trains stopped and a multi-section emergency isolation thrown up as a result.

Me, me, bloody me.

 

[transmanche]

But no doubt will have had some sort of pre-existing condition, which could have arose at any other time.

Big assumption there.

I've been on crowded trains in such a situation and seen people suffer from dehydration, exhaustion, panic attacks etc. I can well understand why having been in that situation before, some people may try an extricate themselves by any means possible.

In real life things aren't always black and white.

 

[GB]

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

You know which lines are still open to traffic, which direction trains can come from and lines speeds etc etc?

3rd rail is only one of the considerations.

With reagrds to this incident, the power was onlt a few minutes away from being restored to several sections untill the passengers decided they knew better. Yet again it was the selfish few that caused extra delay for the other.:roll:

Seems a little "knowledge" is a dangerous thing.

 

[transmanche]

With reagrds to this incident, the power was onlt a few minutes away from being restored to several sections untill the passengers decided they knew better.

Did the passengers on the train know that?

I'm not saying that I necessarily condone their action, but I do empathise with their situation.

 

[142094]

Big assumption there.

I've been on crowded trains in such a situation and seen people suffer from dehydration, exhaustion, panic attacks etc. I can well understand why having been in that situation before, some people may try an extricate themselves by any means possible.

But you're also assuming that it is better for them to get off the train - which is IMO a last resort in 99% of cases.

 

[transmanche]

But you're also assuming that it is better for them to get off the train - which is IMO a last resort in 99% of cases.

No I haven't. Merely trying to understand why people do something (or empathising with their situation) does not mean that you necessarily agree with their actions.

Have a read of post #30 again.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But you're also assuming that it is better for them to get off the train - which is IMO a last resort in 99% of cases.

Quite. If they get into further difficulty along the track then you're looking at a full scale search.

 

[DelayRepay]

I've been on crowded trains in such a situation and seen people suffer from dehydration, exhaustion, panic attacks etc. I can well understand why having been in that situation before, some people may try an extricate themselves by any means possible.
.

I don't know how crowded the trains people decided to evacuate were. My train left London Bridge with plenty of seats to spare just a few minutes after the accident, so I guess the trains just in front were not overly crowded either.

In any case, in an emergency surely other passengers should look after those who are suffering? I know this doesn't happen in reality, although on my (diverted) train a lovely lady passenger shared her birthday chocolates with other people in the carriage, and people were talking to strangers trying to work out the best way home, who could share taxis etc. This is most unusual in London and for a few minutes I thought I was back home in Yorkshire

If someone is dehydrated, surely one fellow passenger will have a bottle of water they can give? Exhaustion - well I'm not a doctor but surely if you're exhausted the best thing to do is sit down rather than go for a hike along the side of the railway. And again if someone's having a panic attack, I'm not convinced climbing out of the train and going for a walk in the dark is the best course of action. If someone is so seriously ill that they need to be removed from the train, a 999 call should be made. It will be much safer for BTP or railway staff to make their way to the train, with paramedics if necessary, than for someone who's apparently ill to go walking about in the dark.

Out of interest is there any evidence that those people who broke off trains were actually ill?

My neighbour tells me people broke out of his train after the driver announced they were about to set off back to Lewisham. This suggests to me they may have been people from Hither Green who thought the walk from where ever the train was would take less time than going back to Lewisham and waiting for the bus...

 

[transmanche]

And again if someone's having a panic attack, I'm not convinced climbing out of the train and going for a walk in the dark is the best course of action.

It's very easy to sit in a comfy chair and say what people should do in any given situation. However, in real life people react in very different ways - not all of them logical.

Again, remember I am not saying what people should or should not do. But rather than just condemn them out of hand, I am interested in trying to understand why people react as they do.

 

[DelayRepay]

It's very easy to sit in a comfy chair and say what people should do in any given situation. However, in real life people react in very different ways - not all of them logical.

Again, remember I am not saying what people should or should not do. But rather than just condemn them out of hand, I am interested in trying to understand why people react as they do.

That's a fair point.

Given that these are DOO trains, so there is no guard, it is down to the passengers to help each other. If I could see someone was ill, I would do everything I could to help them and prevent them causing themselves further harm by evacuating the train. But I can also see how someone panicing could thing some fresh air would be a good idea.

I wonder how many of these self evacuations actually start off with "let's open the door to let some fresh air in"?

Another point I would make is that this is where having a guard on the train is really important. A guard would be able to reassure passengers, deal with anyone who was ill etc. As these trains only have a driver, who has to remain in the cab, the passengers are pretty much left to fend for themselves.

 

[D1009]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are DOO trains, so there is no guard, it is down to the passengers to help each other. If I could see someone was ill, I would do everything I could to help them and prevent them causing themselves further harm by evacuating the train. But I can also see how someone panicing could thing some fresh air would be a good idea.

I wonder how many of these self evacuations actually start off with "let's open the door to let some fresh air in"?

Another point I would make is that this is where having a guard on the train is really important. A guard would be able to reassure passengers, deal with anyone who was ill etc. As these trains only have a driver, who has to remain in the cab, the passengers are pretty much left to fend for themselves.

Not sure whether this is still the case, but in Germany, during times of disruption, it was quite usual for announcements to be made directly from the control office to train PA systems concerning length of delay, altered connections and likely arrival times. Sound quality tended to be very poor however.

You can understand people taking the situation into their own hands if they feel left totally isolated.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Having a guard on the train does not prevent these incidents SWT has a guard on every train, yet the horrendous night of June 9th 2011 still resulted in people alighting from their trains despite the fact the the power was still flowing through the juice rails.

Passengers know best, everyone knows that.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Having a guard on the train does not prevent these incidents SWT has a guard on every train, yet the horrendous night of June 9th 2011 still resulted in people alighting from their trains despite the fact the the power was still flowing through the juice rails.

Passengers know best, everyone knows that.

What happened on June 9th 2011?

 

[IanXC]

Big assumption there.

I've been on crowded trains in such a situation and seen people suffer from dehydration, exhaustion, panic attacks etc. I can well understand why having been in that situation before, some people may try an extricate themselves by any means possible.

In real life things aren't always black and white.

I would have thought its pretty black and white that suffering from illness such as those examples and being confined in a train is much preferable to wandering around on the track side, and maybe being electrocuted, hit by a train, loosing a limb in a point...

 

[OxtedL]

What happened on June 9th 2011?

Peruse this old thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46806

 

[ushawk]

What happened on June 9th 2011?

Basically, attempted cable theft in the Byfleet/Weybridge area caused a loss of power to all signals. Passengers left trains themselves delaying them further - some trains were delayed by about 4 hours i think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I was perfectly honest. I probably would de-train IF I knew there was a station/way off the trackside nearby and there was no way the train was going to move anytime soon. I probably take the opposite view to Southeastern-465 as I know the dangers so I know not to touch the 3rd/4th rail. Anyway if you've just had a hard week at the office then you just want to get home don't you?

In September last year, there was a trespasser on the line at Thornton Heath, so trains were suspended between Victoria and Croydon for about 45 minutes whilst the person was removed from the track with the power off. Trains started leaving Victoria again about 10 minutes before the person was removed, but just as the power was switched back on, people on a "Metro" stopping service broke out of a train at Norbury, which meant the power had to go back off and the trains that started moving towards Norbury had to be stopped and werent moving for about an hour. I was stuck on the 1st train on the fast line which put its emergency brake on at Streatham Common, fortunately the mood on this train (which was full and standing) was subdued, even quite friendly.

This all started at about 5.30PM in the middle of rush hour - so thousands more people in London and across the South East were disrupted because of a group of about 20 selfish people who couldnt be bothered to wait. If about 1,000 people on a full and standing 12-car train can wait over an hour - then so can a few people on a Metro 4-car train which wasnt full at all. I despise any person that cant wait on the train to get moving and chooses to de-train as they are just purely selfish. Thats my opinion anyway.

 

[150222]

Maybe I phrased my post wrong. If someone else had already opened the door I would probably follow them. I would not make the first move and open the door however.

 

[ushawk]

Maybe I phrased my post wrong. If someone else had already opened the door I would probably follow them. I would not make the first move and open the door however.

Thats how it all develops, 1 person opens the doors and leaves, then someone else, and then another person and then another - soon you have about 50 people who dont have a clue about the railway across the lines.

All the same to me.

 

[transmanche]

And when people regularly read stories in the media such as this;

"A Eurostar spokeswoman said journeys had been delayed by up to seven hours."​

That's why passengers sometimes decide to make their own way off a stranded train...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would have thought its pretty black and white that suffering from illness such as those examples and being confined in a train is much preferable to wandering around on the track side, and maybe being electrocuted, hit by a train, loosing a limb in a point...

Again, I refer you back to my comments in post #30.

 

[455driver]

Any passenger that willingly de-trains themselves in these situations should be charged with trespass.

Every time these wallies go for a walk they make the situation worse for everyone else stuck on trains because the power has to be turned off/ not put back on and trains moved until the wallies have to be rounded up first.

 

[EM2]

And when people regularly read stories in the media such as this;

"A Eurostar spokeswoman said journeys had been delayed by up to seven hours."​

That's why passengers sometimes decide to make their own way off a stranded train...

Strange then, that no-one bailed from this service, that was stuck overnight.

 

[NSEFAN]

Strange then, that no-one bailed from this service, that was stuck overnight.

The cold was probably a good enough incentive to stay put! In the summer, there is probably a greater risk of people detraining themselves, especially on newer stock when the aircon has stopped working and there are no openable windows.

 

[142094]

I still fail to see why anyone would detrain themselves (unless there was an immediate risk such as a fire). Are people really that thick that they'd rather start walking around on a running railway, with possible live 3rd rail and no staff help?