FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[miami]

And nobody got off at Reading?

 

[jimm]

From May there is a new (FO) 19:12 Padd to Bristol train. Calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads.

Also calls at Bristol Parkway, so hopefully should syphon off a lot of the passengers bound for the stations in England from the 19.15.

I see this thread, which started out addressing an important issue in the GWR area, now seems to have descended into yet another about that legendary beast 'the Reading commuter'.

Might I suggest that we are spared yet more of the not very helpful 'solutions' postulated here until electrification has happened and the new rolling stock and service patterns that will result have actually had a chance to make an impact on how people travel in the Thames Valley - such as the ability to use a 12-car 387 formation (Aslef permitting...) running non-stop at 110mph between Reading and Paddington, where the commuters find that they will get a seat and a journey time that is essentially the same as that on an express.

And stick to the off-peak ticket validity issue here.

 

[FenMan]

I see this thread, which started out addressing an important issue in the GWR area, now seems to have descended into yet another about that legendary beast 'the Reading commuter'.

Might I suggest that we are spared yet more of the not very helpful 'solutions' postulated here until electrification has happened and the new rolling stock and service patterns that will result have actually had a chance to make an impact on how people travel in the Thames Valley - such as the ability to use a 12-car 387 formation (Aslef permitting...) running non-stop at 110mph between Reading and Paddington, where the commuters find that they will get a seat and a journey time that is essentially the same as that on an express.

And stick to the off-peak ticket validity issue here.

Hear hear.

 

[father_jack]

The following appeared my inbox from a pal in the smoke. Thought BNM might have got wind of it by now.......

Off Peak tickets for journeys starting inside the Network area for journeys to destinations outside the Network area with travel via London are vaild by any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

Off peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network area for travel via London use restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise they are unrestricted between London and the destination station and return.

There's a schematic shown describing the above too.

 

[Haywain]

The following appeared my inbox from a pal in the smoke. Thought BNM might have got wind of it by now.......

Off Peak tickets for journeys starting inside the Network area for journeys to destinations outside the Network area with travel via London are vaild by any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

Off peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network area for travel via London use restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise they are unrestricted between London and the destination station and return.

There's a schematic shown describing the above too.

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to this thread, in spite of it being an oversimplification that can easily be misinterpreted.

The fact is that the problems encountered by BNM, and others, relate to tickets for journeys wholly within the Network Card area.

 

[father_jack]

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is to this thread, in spite of it being an oversimplification that can easily be misinterpreted.

The fact is that the problems encountered by BNM, and others, relate to tickets for journeys wholly within the Network Card area.

I agree entirely. Problem is still misunderstood........

 

[maniacmartin]

The 'NSE rule' may have exceptions, but it is a good rule of thumb to use if one had to guess a ticket's validity.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The 'NSE rule' may have exceptions, but it is a good rule of thumb to use if one had to guess a ticket's validity.

But staff shouldn't be guessing ticket validity.
If they don't know if a ticket is valid or not, then they should either be looking it up or letting the passenger through. There should be no rules of thumb or guesswork involved because that is exactly how messes like this (the whole topic that the thread was created for) occur.

 

[Hadders]

The 'NSE rule' may have exceptions, but it is a good rule of thumb to use if one had to guess a ticket's validity.

Does it have any exceptions?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Does it have any exceptions?

The original poster had a ticket from somewhere on what used to be the Southern Railway to Didcot and was denied access to the HST's at Paddington heading west.

 

[Hadders]

I'm fully aware of the OP's issue,but the Network Rule has nothing to do with that issue as both origin and destination are inside the Network Area.

I was interested in whether there are any exceptions to the Network Area Rule.

 

[father_jack]

I agree entirely. Problem is still misunderstood........

I retract the above post. He usually has split tickets at Reading and/or Didcot. The solution is aimed at these ticket types.

 

[Deerfold]

I retract the above post. He usually has split tickets at Reading and/or Didcot. The solution is aimed at these ticket types.

Didcot, Reading and Paddington are all within the Network Area so this rule is irrelevant for these tickets too.

 

[Agent_c]

Is there really any reason to post on this thread again until or unless mac goes back to Paddington?

 

[richw]

Is there really any reason to post on this thread again until or unless mac goes back to Paddington?

I've heard through the grapevine (or another forum) he has had a further declined travel this week.

 

[bnm]

Yes it did happen to me again last week, but I've been unable to update here until now. Nothing has really changed at Paddington despite all the promises and platitiudes I've been given over the past two years.

The person who delayed me last week had allegedly been trained. He even had the crib sheet in his pocket. That didn't stop him defaulting to 'not valid', and only confirming validity once my train had departed. Making the ludicrous suggestion that I present myself at the gateline with sufficient time for the staff to check. I present myself along with all other passengers when the train is called.

I made it clear to the DSM I spoke with last week that whilst each incident is the fault of the an individual member of staff getting it wrong, the overall blame lies squarely with management. The training is failing and the staff are not giving the benefit of the doubt to the customer when they don't know or are unsure.

'Benefit of the doubt' is what is needed. That's the quickest way to resolve things and let the passenger board their chosen train. So what if a few people get on a train with an Off-Peak ticket that isn't valid (mine always are). Those people can be excess fared during their journey in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 12:

If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned.

So, where are we?

Being told the gatelines were being re-programmed to accept W1/C4/F3 was a lie. That lie was confirmed by the MD of GWR to my MP. Being told that all staff had been properly trained, with emphasis given that some Off Peak tickets are valid, was a lie.

There have been previous occasions since the last round of correspondence where I have used a C4/F3 ticket. Three times. First occasion the member of staff recognised me and let me through with a cheery greeting. Second time my chosen train departed from an unbarriered platform. Third time, disruption saw all gatelines open. It now appears that nothing has actually changed and I was only lucky not to be prevented from travelling on those occasions. It shouldn't be a lottery. My tickets are bloody well valid!

 

[Wolfie]

Yes it did happen to me again last week, but I've been unable to update here until now. Nothing has really changed at Paddington despite all the promises and platitiudes I've been given over the past two years.

The person who delayed me last week had allegedly been trained. He even had the crib sheet in his pocket. That didn't stop him defaulting to 'not valid', and only confirming validity once my train had departed. Making the ludicrous suggestion that I present myself at the gateline with sufficient time for the staff to check. I present myself along with all other passengers when the train is called.

I made it clear to the DSM I spoke with last week that whilst each incident is the fault of the an individual member of staff getting it wrong, the overall blame lies squarely with management. The training is failing and the staff are not giving the benefit of the doubt to the customer when they don't know or are unsure.

'Benefit of the doubt' is what is needed. That's the quickest way to resolve things and let the passenger board their chosen train. So what if a few people get on a train with an Off-Peak ticket that isn't valid (mine always are). Those people can be excess fared during their journey in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 12:



So, where are we?

Being told the gatelines were being re-programmed to accept W1/C4/F3 was a lie. That lie was confirmed by the MD of GWR to my MP. Being told that all staff had been properly trained, with emphasis given that some Off Peak tickets are valid, was a lie.

There have been previous occasions since the last round of correspondence where I have used a C4/F3 ticket. Three times. First occasion the member of staff recognised me and let me through with a cheery greeting. Second time my chosen train departed from an unbarriered platform. Third time, disruption saw all gatelines open. It now appears that nothing has actually changed and I was only lucky not to be prevented from travelling on those occasions. It shouldn't be a lottery. My tickets are bloody well valid!

It is time to write to the MD of GWR and advise him that you will consider litigation for harrassment against his company, given some of the earlier emails etc, should there be a further recurrence. Furthermore the media WILL be involved. Go back to your MP too - they tend not to respond too well to being lied to and methinks an letter from the MP to the SofS for Transport may not exactly do any harm...

 

[Haywain]

It is time to write to the MD of GWR and advise him that you will consider litigation for harrassment against his company, given some of the earlier emails etc, should there be a further recurrence. Furthermore the media WILL be involved. Go back to your MP too - they tend not to respond too well to being lied to and methinks an letter from the MP to the SofS for Transport may not exactly do any harm...

As bnm has already involved the MD, we should probably expect that he will do so again. However, empty threats of litigation are just that unless they are realistic. To succeed with a claim of harassment, bnm would need to show that he is being stopped because of who he is, not because of the tickets he holds, which would be difficult as we know that he is not alone in being stopped.

 

[bnm]

I think the only legal route I would have would be breach of contract. Damages are unlikely, so it would only be the ticket cost I'd get back. GWR have previously fully refunded me along with goodwill gestures. I'd get no more from a small claim except maybe more stress. Something I don't need currently.

Matters have been raised again with all parties previously involved - CS Manager, MD, MP, London Travelwatch. Responses awaited.

 

[jkdd77]

I suspect that GWR's actions amount to misleading and/or aggressive commercial practices, which are criminal breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and which do no require proof of mens rea.

7.—(1) A commercial practice is aggressive if, in its factual context, taking account of all of its features and circumstances—

(a)it significantly impairs or is likely significantly to impair the average consumer’s freedom of choice or conduct in relation to the product concerned through the use of harassment, coercion or undue influence; and

(b)it thereby causes or is likely to cause him to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise. (e.g. buying a new or more expensive ticket to get through the barriers, or unwillingly travelling on a later train).

(2) In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence account shall be taken of—

(a)its timing, location, nature or persistence;

(b)the use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour;

(c)the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity as to impair the consumer’s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer’s decision with regard to the product (the urgent need of the consumer to travel on the next train).

(d)any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barrier imposed by the trader where a consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract (the physical barrier at Paddington is a onerous non-contractual barrier to the right to travel on a train), including rights to terminate a contract or to switch to another product or another trader; and

(e)any threat to take any action which cannot legally be taken.

GWR's repeated false statements on the programming of ticket barriers and the training of staff are also plainly misleading.

A victim has the right to sue for breaches of these Regulations.

 

[bnm]

A victim has the right to sue for breaches of these Regulations.

They, or rather I, may well have that right. A slam dunk though? Unlikely. At minimal cost to me? Unlikely.

Should I be the one to stand up and be counted? I'm happy moaning about the inequities online and complaining through various channels. Taking legal action alone though? Not sure about that...

 

[furlong]

I suspect that GWR's actions amount to misleading and/or aggressive commercial practices, which are criminal breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and which do no require proof of mens rea.
...
A victim has the right to sue for breaches of these Regulations.

I don't think that is quite as straightforward as you make out, but I think a matter such as this could legitimately be taken up with the ORR for investigation under the consumer regulations:

1. ORR is a designated enforcer under Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002 (‘the Act’). As such, ORR has the power to take enforcement action in relation to breaches of certain consumer protection legislation, where there is evidence of harm to the collective interests of consumers.
...
5. As mentioned above, Part 8 of the Act gives ORR the power to take enforcement action in relation to breaches of certain consumer protection legislation, where there is evidence of harm to the collective interests of consumers.
...
22. ORR (along with other sector regulators) is a designated enforcer. In addition to the designated enforcers, there are also general enforcers (including the Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards Service) and Community enforcers (enforcers from other European states).
...
29. Before seeking court action, we will normally attempt to stop an infringement by consulting with the party or parties concerned. This is an important part of the enforcement process. Indeed, Part 8 makes certain minimum periods of consultation between an enforcer and business mandatory.
...
33. We may accept undertakings from any business against which proceedings could be brought. The undertaking would be from a business that has engaged, or is engaging, in conduct that constitutes an infringement or, with reference to a Community infringement, is likely to do so.
...
35. The undertaking, whether given to an enforcer or to the court, must require that the business:
• does not continue or repeat the conduct;
...

Separately, it could also be reported to the DfT as an apparently straightforward and repeated breach of the franchise agreement along these lines:

From the TSA:

10-1 THE OBLIGATION OF THE OPERATORS TO CARRY PASSENGERS
(1) Fares in respect of which the Operators are bound
An Operator is bound to carry on its trains each Purchaser of a Fare, in accordance with its terms, for the whole or any part of the journey for which the Fare entitles him to use those trains.

and from an East Midlands Trains breach notice:

Failure by the Franchisee to abide by the obligations of the TSA is a breach of the Franchise Agreement.

The priority in these processes is quite clearly to apply sufficient pressure to the company so as to make it fix the problem, rather than to obtain compensation or a conviction, but nevertheless prosecution can be an eventual outcome.

 

[nanstallon]

Yes it did happen to me again last week, but I've been unable to update here until now. Nothing has really changed at Paddington despite all the promises and platitiudes I've been given over the past two years.

The person who delayed me last week had allegedly been trained. He even had the crib sheet in his pocket. That didn't stop him defaulting to 'not valid', and only confirming validity once my train had departed. Making the ludicrous suggestion that I present myself at the gateline with sufficient time for the staff to check. I present myself along with all other passengers when the train is called.

I made it clear to the DSM I spoke with last week that whilst each incident is the fault of the an individual member of staff getting it wrong, the overall blame lies squarely with management. The training is failing and the staff are not giving the benefit of the doubt to the customer when they don't know or are unsure.

'Benefit of the doubt' is what is needed. That's the quickest way to resolve things and let the passenger board their chosen train. So what if a few people get on a train with an Off-Peak ticket that isn't valid (mine always are). Those people can be excess fared during their journey in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 12:



So, where are we?

Being told the gatelines were being re-programmed to accept W1/C4/F3 was a lie. That lie was confirmed by the MD of GWR to my MP. Being told that all staff had been properly trained, with emphasis given that some Off Peak tickets are valid, was a lie.

There have been previous occasions since the last round of correspondence where I have used a C4/F3 ticket. Three times. First occasion the member of staff recognised me and let me through with a cheery greeting. Second time my chosen train departed from an unbarriered platform. Third time, disruption saw all gatelines open. It now appears that nothing has actually changed and I was only lucky not to be prevented from travelling on those occasions. It shouldn't be a lottery. My tickets are bloody well valid!

Spot on. Railway staff seem intent at times on making life difficult with tickets, catching you out if they can possibly find a way of doing so. Oh, for the days when you just bought a ticket to Helmsdale or wherever and that was that, without all the British money grubbing. If they insist of such a complicated system, they should at least train their staff properly - and not treat customers as criminals unless they are deliberately travelling without a ticket. I feel too scared to go on a train, with all this stuff; much simpler to jump into the car!

 

[najaB]

I feel too scared to go on a train, with all this stuff; much simpler to jump into the car!

I make about 200 rail journeys a year and haven't once had any bother of the sort experienced by bnm - there's definitely an issue but it isn't as wide-spread or prevalent as your post would make it seem to be.

 

[jon0844]

Spot on. Railway staff seem intent at times on making life difficult with tickets, catching you out if they can possibly find a way of doing so. Oh, for the days when you just bought a ticket to Helmsdale or wherever and that was that, without all the British money grubbing. If they insist of such a complicated system, they should at least train their staff properly - and not treat customers as criminals unless they are deliberately travelling without a ticket. I feel too scared to go on a train, with all this stuff; much simpler to jump into the car!

To be fair, a lot of the complications come from the availability of cheaper tickets. If we got rid of them all and had only any permitted tickets, and didn't allow split ticketing either, most (all?) problems would disappear.

But boy would we pay for it!!

 

[miami]

Spot on. Railway staff seem intent at times on making life difficult with tickets, catching you out if they can possibly find a way of doing so. Oh, for the days when you just bought a ticket to Helmsdale or wherever and that was that, without all the British money grubbing. If they insist of such a complicated system, they should at least train their staff properly - and not treat customers as criminals unless they are deliberately travelling without a ticket. I feel too scared to go on a train, with all this stuff; much simpler to jump into the car!

Yes, lets simplify tickets. The only ones available will be really expensive anytime tickets, or specific-train-only tickets, all will be point to point, no breaking your journey along the way. Great news for the travelling public, who certainly won't just jump in the car.

If you want "simple", book a train on a website, print the itinerary, and stick to it. I'm not aware of anyone being blocked from boarding a train when they had a reservation on that train.

 

[Agent_c]

At this point, I think Mac needs to start carrying a letter from the MD in his pocket that directs the person on the gateline to phone the MD and explain why he's not following the correct proceedure.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I'm not aware of anyone being blocked from boarding a train when they had a reservation on that train.

There's a story on this site of someone, at Paddington, with an Off Peak ticket from outside London to somewhere like Oxford or beyond, being denied boarding during the evening peak until he or she showed a reservation for the train they were being denied access to.

 

[sheff1]

......

 

[bnm]

There will no further inputs on this topic from me on this forum. Updates will only be available to established members of another forum.

Thanks to all who contributed.