FGW kicked vulnerable passenger off train because card machine wasn't working

[sheff1]

What a good idea! NOT!!
Now tell me how they would fit a TVM at Sugar Loaf Halt?
The only electric there is solar.

And I suspect it isn't the only station in the UK that doesn't have mains electric.

So, because a handful of stations don't have mains electric, fit for purpose facilities should not be fitted at the ~99% which do - very British

 

[Llanigraham]

So, because a handful of stations don't have mains electric, fit for purpose facilities should not be fitted at the ~99% which do - very British

You made the unresearched point about fitting them. I just pointed out one of the problems.
Just remember that if you want the TOC's to fit all this equipment then you as the passenger are going to have to pay for it.
Result higher fares!
Is that what you want?

Perhaps a few people need to realise that their suggestions would be firstly against various Banking legislations, against the Banking Code of Conduct, and possibly illegal under some of the Child Laws.

The biggest problem, and the one that needs the most work, is that the Banking Industry has massively complicated the "card" system, often at the behest of you the general public.

If it was still just the basic card system then this would not be happening. It has now been calculated by some of the Small Traders Assocs that there are so many different card systems circulating. These can vary from "ATM only", through "On-Line at a registered terminal only", to "maximum payment/no overdraft" type. And they can all have the Barclaycard symbol on them! It is impossible to differentiate between them until they are declined!! Try running a small business as we have; it is a nightmare even in a shop, so how the helll it would work on a train system where mobile phone coverage can be doubtful or even non-existant I don't know.

I suggest some people here need to look at the bigger picture and not their narrow "railway" world!

 

[Drsatan]

So, because a handful of stations don't have mains electric, fit for purpose facilities should not be fitted at the ~99% which do - very British

However, St James Park (the station from which this individual departed from) is in a residential area, yet does not have a TVM (but has a combined help point & PIS screen).

I hope the next Greater Western franchise stipulates that TVMs ought to be installed at all unstaffed stations where practical - the lack of a TVM for a station like St James Park, located in an urban area, is unusual.

 

[jon0844]

but an under 18 cannot go into Debit, by Law, and your system could allow that.

That's why I was saying they shouldn't be stopped from having any payment card at all, just one that requires an online authorisation first.

And that means someone under 18 won't be able to pay on a train.

 

[Llanigraham]

That's why I was saying they shouldn't be stopped from having any payment card at all, just one that requires an online authorisation first.

And that means someone under 18 won't be able to pay on a train.

Tough!
Everyone who is issued with a card gets a Terms & Conditions Notice (by Law), which explains EXACTLY how that card can work. Now if they choose to ignore or not bother to read those T & C's it is not the retailers problem.

And yes, I have had to deal with it.

I'm sure my grand-daughter's ATM only card came with a nice SIMPLE explanatory leaflet.

 

[sheff1]

You made the unresearched point about fitting them.

I did ?

- the lack of a TVM for a station like St James Park, located in an urban area, is unusual.

Not unusual at all I'm afraid. I give you Greater Manchester.

 

[jon0844]

Tough!
Everyone who is issued with a card gets a Terms & Conditions Notice (by Law), which explains EXACTLY how that card can work. Now if they choose to ignore or not bother to read those T & C's it is not the retailers problem.

And yes, I have had to deal with it.

I'm sure my grand-daughter's ATM only card came with a nice SIMPLE explanatory leaflet.

Why can't they have a debit card to pay for things in shops (with online authorisation)? Saying 'tough' seems very harsh.

The issue is making sure nobody can go overdrawn, and an online only card would be as 'safe' as the ATM only card.

 

[jb]

So, because a handful of stations don't have mains electric, fit for purpose facilities should not be fitted at the ~99% which do - very British

Unfortunately you forfeit any right to the common sense or practicality end of the argument when you insist that the fitness for purpose of (unmanned) facilities is their ability to cope with ticketing issues of an arbitrarily obscure nature.

That such a notion is merely a matter of software is not even true in theory, and risible in practice.

 

[reb0118]

And those with Chip & Signature cards? Or foreign nationals with cards that have no chip? How are their payments taken with this 'all' encompassing idea?

I believe that Chip & Sig cards still have to be put through the thyron - the passenger is then prompted to sign a slip rather than to enter their PIN.

Foreign cards without chips can be swiped as at present. I will edit my original post to further clarify this.

 

[michael769]

What a good idea! NOT!!
Now tell me how they would fit a TVM at Sugar Loaf Halt?
The only electric there is solar.

And I suspect it isn't the only station in the UK that doesn't have mains electric.
Or a telephone line or mobile signal!!

I fail to understand how a lack of electrical power at Sugar Loaf Hill explains why existing TVMs at other locations are unable to sell the full range of tickets, how how it prevents those existing TVMs from having upgraded software?

Of course there would never be a 100% rollout - a station so remote and unused that it is considered unnecessary to light properly is clearly an exception. But that is not a good reason for TOCs to fail to provide adequate and fit for purpose ticket purchasing facilities at the vast majority of stations which do have power.

But there is no point bothering to roll out more TVMs if passengers cannot use them to purchase the tickets that they need.

Lets be honest here if the industry wanted to solve this problem it could simply by manning every station. Expensive, of course! Impractical, probably! But impossible - no! If the industry chooses not to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities at all stations on cost grounds that it is its prerogative, but it should be honest and admit that it has made a commercial decision to swallow the losses from the fare dodging that arises and stop demonising people, some of whom are only guilty of getting confused by convoluted ticketing arrangements and arcane and outdated laws.

The simple truth is that the industry cares more about lining its shareholders pockets than it does about customer service, and it is high time that the entirely unjustified and undeserved exemptions from consumer protection law is removed from it.

If FGW can put up signs at its stations warning people that not all cards can be used on trains, then why cannot the other ToCs do the same? Why don't they require that ATOC put the same warning on their pages? How many have on on their websites?

 

[WelshBluebird]

FGW do have signs at their ticket offices stating that some cards aren't accepted on board.

1 - No menton of "online only" visa debit cards (for example).

2 - Not much use if you don't have a ticket office at your local station.

So another bit of writing in a book no-one really reads will be ok then? Christ theres too much of it about now and people even walk past bright yellow posters saying 'BUY A TICKET OR YOU WILL GO TO JAIL' but still they take no notice.

As I said, at least that would then mean the railway has done something to notify the passenger.

All that has to be done is make the bank all cards work and if that means people get into debt trhough not having enough money on their card(they know they dont thats why they try to use them) then let the bank deal with getting that money back from them. Or get the banks to print something on the cards themselves.

But again none of that deals with the fact the railways advertise a payment method as being accepted when in reality it is not. That is my issue. I don't have a problem with the railways not accepting such cards on board trains. My problem is they do not tell passengers that until they end up having a penalty fair or a UPFN or whatever because they had no way of knowing!

Yes, why not?

Because as I said, believe it or not, not everywhere has a cash machine readily available. And even if it did, I would be very hesitant to carry a large amount of cash with me when a debit card is also accepted as payment.

Tough!
Everyone who is issued with a card gets a Terms & Conditions Notice (by Law), which explains EXACTLY how that card can work. Now if they choose to ignore or not bother to read those T & C's it is not the retailers problem.

And yes, I have had to deal with it.

I'm sure my grand-daughter's ATM only card came with a nice SIMPLE explanatory leaflet.

Which goes right back to my point that the railways DO NOT clearly advertise that "online only" cards are not accepted as valid methods of payment on board trains. So even if I knew the T&C's of such a card off by heart, that would still not help me if I wanted to use it to buy a ticket onboard a train.

 

[Llanigraham]

I suggest some of you read the Banking Code of Conduct and the legislation from the Financial Services Authority before you go any further!
Lots of what you are proposing would be illegal!

I'm out of this.

 

[Mojo]

I'd like to pick a few holes in your suggestion, but I haven't got time. Suffice to say that PCI DSS eliminates much of what you propose.

FWIW, when payment by contactless cards is fully rolled out across TfL, there will be cards which have been blocked and this data will both be provided to the station computers (so access can be denied at gatelines) and to the readers being supplied to Inspectors. They have obviously gotten around this somehow (or I am misreading what the person you have quoted has said).

 

[ATW Alex 101]

That's why I was saying they shouldn't be stopped from having any payment card at all, just one that requires an online authorisation first.

And that means someone under 18 won't be able to pay on a train.

But why can I pay on the train? I'm under 18

 

[jon0844]

But why can I pay on the train? I'm under 18

I don't know! What card do you have?

It must be that some banks allow people to go into debt, and must therefore also be prepared to write that money off given it would be hard - maybe impossible - to chase you for that debt.

Or do you have a guarantor that would pay on your behalf?

 

[sheff1]

Unfortunately you forfeit any right to the common sense or practicality end of the argument when you insist that the fitness for purpose of (unmanned) facilities is their ability to cope with ticketing issues of an arbitrarily obscure nature.

That such a notion is merely a matter of software is not even true in theory, and risible in practice.

Again, if I understood this I might be able to reply but, as I have apparently lost all my rights, it would clearly be a waste of time anyway.

 

[Clip]

To be honest the responsibility to change does really rest with the railway. No new merchants are allowed to have offline-only equipment and it's not reasonable to expect banks to take credit risks with low-income customers.

Shut up! You can't be serious with that last sentence can you? You can't expect banks to take credit risk with people but its fine for the railway to have to take the risk with passengers who wilfully use these cards because they know they won't and will get told to purchase at end of journey and therefore geta free journey!!

You really can.not.be.serious.

 

[RJ]

Hmmm, the full facts are not yet known so judgement should be reserved. Having said that, I really wouldn't put anything past some guards. Some of them have acted in an inexplicably bizarre manner (i.e refusing to let me board) when I've approached them before boarding to let them know that there was no facility for me to buy a Priv ticket and requested to buy one from them.

 

[sarahj]

Hope your not taring us all with the same brush there RJ.

People talk here about fully manned stations being the end all of issues. We have many stations that are both manned and have TVM's. Yet for most of the day, dispite the station being quite busy, they sit there with nothing to do. Meanwhile from the same stations we still get those travelling with off linecards. And TBH most know what they are doing. As they hand the card over they go, oh its does not work, you will have to swipe. So to board they have passed. 1: Manned ticket office, 2 TVM. And a train every 10-15 mins. I wonder why.:roll:

SJ

 

[Llanigraham]

Shut up! You can't be serious with that last sentence can you? You can't expect banks to take credit risk with people but its fine for the railway to have to take the risk with passengers who wilfully use these cards because they know they won't and will get told to purchase at end of journey and therefore geta free journey!!

You really can.not.be.serious.

I've already asked him for proof of the first part of his statement, which of course he hasn't provided.
All words and no substance!!

 

[jb]

Again, if I understood this I might be able to reply but, as I have apparently lost all my rights, it would clearly be a waste of time anyway.

Feigning ignorance is fine when you have nothing else. Have a nice day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lets be honest here if the industry wanted to solve this problem it could simply by manning every station. Expensive, of course! Impractical, probably! But impossible - no! If the industry chooses not to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities at all stations on cost grounds that it is its prerogative, but it should be honest and admit that it has made a commercial decision to swallow the losses from the fare dodging that arises and stop demonising people, some of whom are only guilty of getting confused by convoluted ticketing arrangements and arcane and outdated laws.

Rubbish. The "problem" which you talk about is entirely arbitrary. It is "solved" in the overwhelming number of cases with "stop ****ing about with excuses and pay". You are asking for massive and impractical changes for the benefit of the small minority who fail to do just that.

 

[bb21]

Since this thread has descended into bickering and is now way off topic from the original issue, it is closed.