FGW looking at loco hauled for the Cardiff - Taunton route

[4SRKT]

Dragging you DMU spotters -)) back on thread, what about DRS? Could they supply stock and locos? With the Glo-Ex looking ever more like little more than a basher's wet dream, there must be a supply of mk II TSOs/DBSOs available, with glorious 37s to power them......

Or it is me who's having the wet dream?

 

[Diddyness]

I would love the Taunton - Cardiff to have a couple of loco-hauled sets, preferably 67 hauled (37's are an impossible dream, much as I would love it ). I catch the 17:21 off Brizzle to travel home to Shrewsbury via Newport. The 3-car train they provide is packed and standing every day.

One benefit of the WAG service (which I use) is the smooth and quiet journey, obviously the seating is a real luxury compared to FGW standard airline/bus style seats and I don't have to have my fillings rattled by sitting on top of an engine.


I was lucky to study at U.C.L. during the days of Wrexham & Shropshire, such an idyllic way to travel, especially when working on a lap top or reading an academic paper or two.

My view is that peak capacity is best increased by using loco-hauled sets, which are very cheap to have "sitting around" as they are written down in stock value. High mileage, all day, frenetic diagrams, put the units on those, you need to use them almost constantly to get the value from them and their maintenance per km is so much less.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I catch the 17:21 off Brizzle to travel home to Shrewsbury via Newport. The 3-car train they provide is packed and standing every day.

I caught it the other day and it was just a single 150! (266). It was crazy! 2 cars was an insult.

I have said to FGW that 3-cars on the route is not long enough but they don't want to know. Ridiculous if you ask me. No wonder they get so much bad press.

I think loco-hauled stock would be a good idea! Even refurbed stock with plug sockets or something so that commuters can do work.

There used to be a 67 diagram on the daily Cardiff to Paignton diagram. Why was this stopped?

 

[83G/84D]

I know drivers and gaurds would need to be trained up for this, but what about FGW sending down their 2 car 158 to cover for the Greenfords?

Are 158's passed to go to Greenford? According to 2012 SA I am looking at they are / were not.

 

[PHILIPE]

Re my previous post, completely impracticable for 158 to work Greenford Branch.

 

[Rhydgaled]

8 on PMH-CDF
2 for the 2 Brighton diagrams
1 on TAU-CDF

So 11 diagrams for 14 units. Then there are 2 diagrams for the 2 2-car 158s, one on Cheltenham-Swindon services, the other on an am Weymouth service, then peak Exeter area services.

14 units?

I thought there were 13 3 coach units-
158950-961 (12) and 158798 (makes 13).

Thanks, so 13 out of 15 158s are diagramed then. What happens when one of the 2-car units is out of action, 3-car vice 2-car or 150 vice 158? If the 158 that really is a 3-car was swapped for a 2-car set from Northern or SWT (giving GW a fleet of 21 2-car 158s) how many would you want/need diagramed/spare/in-for-maintenance?

 

[PHILIPE]

No. 11/13 3 Car
2/2 2 Car.
The 2 Car Diagrams are suitable for and timed for 150s.

 

[TEW]

I catch the 17:21 off Brizzle to travel home to Shrewsbury via Newport. The 3-car train they provide is packed and standing every day.
.

Although that is a service that will likely be formed of LHCS it will not really lead to an increase in capacity. The 150+153 formation booked on that service provides at least 188 seats and 28 more tip up seats, so 216 seats. Theoretically a 150/1 provides a few more seats but as its 3+2 seating they're little used. The LHCS formation used last time (3 MK2 TSO+1 MK2 BSO) provides 212 seats. However all the seats are at tables and people tend to prefer not to sit 4 people to a table unless they know the other people as its a bit tight for legroom.

I caught it the other day and it was just a single 150! (266). It was crazy! 2 cars was an insult.

I have said to FGW that 3-cars on the route is not long enough but they don't want to know. Ridiculous if you ask me. No wonder they get so much bad press.

I think loco-hauled stock would be a good idea! Even refurbed stock with plug sockets or something so that commuters can do work.

There used to be a 67 diagram on the daily Cardiff to Paignton diagram. Why was this stopped?

Well what else do you expect FGW to do? It's not like they've got a string of spare units sitting around at the depot, or if there's any they can hire to use.

I don't know what you see as the solution, there's simply no stock available, FGW actually worked hard to get every single piece of available stock, including some 150s that the DfT had sent off to store at Eastleigh.

The LHCS was withdrawn because it's hideously expensive. The previous operation was funded by the DfT because they messed up the sums on the FGW franchise and allocated too few DMUs. The second set was then introduced as FGW had a requirement for more trains to replace (often duplicating their own services anyway) SWT trains west of Exeter. The LHCS rakes were replaced by cascaded DMUs which are actually affordable to run. Any further use of LHCS will have to be DfT funded, there's no way FGW would be able to afford it otherwise. I haven't even touched on the fact that the MK2s used are easily the most horrible trains FGW were turning out in service at the time. No working air-con and hence sweltering heat just isn't acceptable all summer.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Well what else do you expect FGW to do? It's not like they've got a string of spare units sitting around at the depot, or if there's any they can hire to use.

I don't know what you see as the solution, there's simply no stock available, FGW actually worked hard to get every single piece of available stock, including some 150s that the DfT had sent off to store at Eastleigh.

Buy new trains, like every other operator does. GA have got thirty 379s now, SE have got twenty-nine 395s and ScotRail have got 380s. So why can't FGW? I don't think it's a case of them not having the money quite frankly.

Yes, I may not be aware of the insides of FGW and whether they're in a position to loan/buy new stock, but it is incredibly frustrating when you are rammed like sardines on their trains, especially when the day I caught 150266 alone on 2U24 there were a pair of 153s sat in the sidings, and when you don't have answers, it's really not fair. I pay £260 a month to commute daily, and when I have to wedge myself on a train or even wait for the next one (as I have experienced before), on top of countless delays (of which I've received £100 delay repay/compensation whatever their thing is called in two months), it is incredibly stressful.

I haven't even touched on the fact that the MK2s used are easily the most horrible trains FGW were turning out in service at the time. No working air-con and hence sweltering heat just isn't acceptable all summer.

I really don't think that that's something FGW particularly care about; as long as the service is running, regardless of how many coaches is formed or how hot the carriage is, they don't give a monkeys.

And yes, I may sound idiotic and proposing things that sound ridiculous, but this is coming from someone who has to be at the tail end of FGW's crammed, delayed services every single day, and it really isn't nice, especially when you fork out so much money for train fares. And I think you'll find that I'm certainly not the only one. Every single passenger I have engaged in a conversation with on my commute have said that FGW should simply buy more carriages; whether it's as simple as that is another thing, but there we go, and also they said their services are always delayed.

I think LHCS would be a great idea to increase capacity.

 

[fgwrich]

I presume FGW do not want 150s working in the Thames area. There would be Maintenence issue as 15000012 are just a one off and a unique sub-class.

Not so much the case anymore I gather - hence the reason for 150002 spell up at Brush Loughborough - to 'standardise' the non standard 150/0s. Reading are also used to some 150 maintenance as they have previously carried out work (transmission changes for example) on the 'West Fleet' 150s and 158s. So out basing a /1 or /2 or /9 in Reading shouldn't in theory be too difficult, the hybrid 150209 (two toilet-less 57XXX Cars) Would have, in my opinion been rather suitable for branches such as the Windsor branch for example - 6 minute journey if that, end to end shuttle all day long. Locked in in the morning, locked out in the evening and shuttles back to Reading.

DRS I have to admit could well be a contender - as mentioned by newbryford on the DRS thread, the DBSOs are now in RVEL, The Mk2s are nearing completion in Eastleigh Works, The next bit would be the locos - Could the DBSOs be Green Dot multied to work with 47/57s or could it be TNT? I'd certainly expect the DBS / Riviera alliance to have put their bids in though.

 

[TEW]

Buy new trains, like every other operator does. GA have got thirty 379s now, SE have got twenty-nine 395s and ScotRail have got 380s. So why can't FGW? I don't think it's a case of them not having the money quite frankly.

That isn't how it works. TOCs don't buy new trains. They are bought by ROSCOs and leased by TOCs. However the DfT specifies who can buy what trains and funds them accordingly. FGW loses substantial amounts of money already, they can't afford to buy or lease any new trains. There's also the issue that no ROSCO will buy DMUs at the moment because they don't believe they will be able to lease them for there whole of their life because of the increasing amount of electrification and the rising cost of diesel. Any new DMUs will have to guaranteed by the DfT, ie they'll pay the lease if no franchisee is leasing them. The DfT aren't going to do that for FGW at the moment because of the franchising situation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I may not be aware of the insides of FGW and whether they're in a position to loan/buy new stock, but it is incredibly frustrating when you are rammed like sardines on their trains, especially when the day I caught 150266 alone on 2U24 there were a pair of 153s sat in the sidings, and when you don't have answers, it's really not fair. I pay £260 a month to commute daily, and when I have to wedge myself on a train or even wait for the next one (as I have experienced before), on top of countless delays (of which I've received £100 delay repay/compensation whatever their thing is called in two months), it is incredibly stressful.

The 153s would probably been waiting to strengthen another service, remember you aren't the only person travelling, there's plenty of other packed services around half five from Bristol. You have a choice, if you think the service is that bad find some alternative means instead. If you want FGW to go round buying loads of new stock be prepared for some rather substantial fare increases, as that's the only way it could happen.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Buy new trains, like every other operator does. GA have got thirty 379s now, SE have got twenty-nine 395s and ScotRail have got 380s. So why can't FGW? I don't think it's a case of them not having the money quite frankly.

ATW haven't brought any brand new stock into service during their franchise either. It's not 'every TOC other than FirstGW is getting new trains'.

There's also the issue that no ROSCO will buy DMUs at the moment because they don't believe they will be able to lease them for there whole of their life because of the increasing amount of electrification and the rising cost of diesel.

Yeah, and that. LHCS really is the only option for diesel service improvements in the vast majority of cases.

 

[PHILIPE]

And a reluctance to use it. High costs for one reason.

 

[ValleyLines142]

That isn't how it works. TOCs don't buy new trains. They are bought by ROSCOs and leased by TOCs. However the DfT specifies who can buy what trains and funds them accordingly. FGW loses substantial amounts of money already, they can't afford to buy or lease any new trains. There's also the issue that no ROSCO will buy DMUs at the moment because they don't believe they will be able to lease them for there whole of their life because of the increasing amount of electrification and the rising cost of diesel. Any new DMUs will have to guaranteed by the DfT, ie they'll pay the lease if no franchisee is leasing them. The DfT aren't going to do that for FGW at the moment because of the franchising situation.

Let's be realistic here. Do you think the normal daily commuters will know this? I highly doubt it. To them, and, to some extent, me also, it just looks as if FGW simply cannot be bothered. If you look at the rants on their Twitter and Facebook page, that's the impression their customers are getting. They have said there's a national shortage of carriages, but people just expect them to loan/buy more.

It just seems almost 'unfair', if you can put it that way, that many other operators have the stock available at the majority of times. To a passenger's point of view, don't forget, it just seems as if FGW are being somewhat 'left out' if someone explained what you have said above to them.

The 153s would probably been waiting to strengthen another service

Probably, a service which didn't even need strengthening. Plus don't forget the 1721 off Bristol is supposed to convey a 153 anyway to the 150.

Remember you aren't the only person travelling, there's plenty of other packed services around half five from Bristol.

I'm not saying I am. Every passenger feels exactly the same way though!

You have a choice, if you think the service is that bad find some alternative means instead.

Is that really fair though? It defeats the object of what FGW aim to achieve, to take passengers from A to B. If I found an alternative method of travel, not that I should have to, of course, then FGW would be losing out.

What if I have an Advance ticket, or I need to make a connection, or I have personal plans or issues?

If you want FGW to go round buying loads of new stock be prepared for some rather substantial fare increases, as that's the only way it could happen.

Not being funny here but you know fares will increase anyway to be honest, regardless of whether FGW gets new stock or not! So we might as well just go to town and get some carriages.

This may not be the place for this thread; mods, please move this to a seperate thread if necessary, but where does our money that we fork out on fares go? Again, it's an insult to a passenger where we pay for fares and have no improvements in service. This is one of the key points many people mention on rants on Facebook and Twitter. Yes, admittedly, it must go towards wages of staff, but surely it can't be all of it?!


The main point I'm trying to say in this discussion is that you need to assess the situation from a passenger's point of view; they will not understand any of the reasons you give, albeit being very true!

An LHCS would be very good indeed!

 

[visibleimagery]

Railway Herald suggest the following possibilities in their latest issue??

- DB Shenker T&T 67's or 67 and DVT ops.
- WCRC Class 47's or 57/3's
- DRS with Class 37/4's Class 47/4's or possibly a Class 68??

Just what I read, not my opinion or suggestion?

 

[ValleyLines142]

ATW haven't brought any brand new stock into service during their franchise either. It's not 'every TOC other than FirstGW is getting new trains'.

Yes but ATW's trains aren't that overcrowded and therefore they don't need extra stock.

 

[anthony263]

Railway Herald suggest the following possibilities in their latest issue??

- DB Shenker T&T 67's or 67 and DVT ops.
- WCRC Class 47's or 57/3's
- DRS with Class 37/4's Class 47/4's or possibly a Class 68??

Just what I read, not my opinion or suggestion?

I am sure there will be a lot of us who would love if the latter happened. of course I would be willing to place a bet on DB with the use of class 67's like last time.

 

[SprinterMan]

I am sure there will be a lot of us who would love if the latter happened. of course I would be willing to place a bet on DB with the use of class 67's like last time.

AFAIK, 67s are almost a certainty, but if 37s turned up I think I would pass out from glee. I think 57/3s are unlikely as FGW vowed to never use them again after the horrendous reliability they endured when using VT 57/3s in 2009.

Adam

 

[MCR247]

Probably, a service which didn't even need strengthening

Yeah but do you know that as a fact?

Is that really fair though? It defeats the object of what FGW aim to achieve, to take passengers from A to B. If I found an alternative method of travel, not that I should have to, of course, then FGW would be losing out.

Well if you consider having one less moaning passenger and one more space available on a train losing out, then yes they are losing out

What if I have an Advance ticket, or I need to make a connection, or I have personal plans or issues?

I doubt the reference to a choice was referring to after you have bought a ticket. The choice is, buy a ticket and go by train, or use another method of transport. You are in no way forced into the same overcrowded carriage everyday or whatever.

Not being funny here but you know fares will increase anyway to be honest, regardless of whether FGW gets new stock or not! So we might as well just go to town and get some carriages.

You're going on the assumption that the fares will increase the same amount if FGW spent millions on new stock

Again, it's an insult to a passenger where we pay for fares and have no improvements in service.

I don't really understand this. Why do peoples standards always change when it comes to trains and public transport? How does an increase in price mean you should expect some magical improvement? Everyone expects this when it comes to the railways and bus companies etc, but I know that if I go into Tesco and buy a carton of orange juice, it will be more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Should I now expect this orange juice to give me magical powers, or to use some formula that makes it last longer? No. Thats just inflation. Yet I don't hear many twitter/facebook rants specifically aimed at this?
Also, most people somehow expect train fares to stay the same, but then at the same time expect a rise in pay for their job. What about FGW staff? Are they not allowed a rise in pay?

 

[ValleyLines142]

I don't really understand this. Why do peoples standards always change when it comes to trains and public transport? How does an increase in price mean you should expect some magical improvement? Everyone expects this when it comes to the railways and bus companies etc, but I know that if I go into Tesco and buy a carton of orange juice, it will be more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Should I now expect this orange juice to give me magical powers, or to use some formula that makes it last longer? No. Thats just inflation. Yet I don't hear many twitter/facebook rants specifically aimed at this?
Also, most people somehow expect train fares to stay the same, but then at the same time expect a rise in pay for their job. What about FGW staff? Are they not allowed a rise in pay?

As I said in my previous post, what you're saying is true, but passengers honestly don't want to know.

And your example with orange juice is, with all due respect, quite silly, as there's a CLEAR difference with the very minimal difference in taste of a drink and having to be squished into conditions on a train that are very much like the Black Hole of Calcutta for sixty minutes, which, at the same time, feels more like two hours. But if you do want to go down that route, the increase in prices is HUGE.

Have you thought about those who are claustrophobic or pregnant?

Anyway, it was a shame that FGW stopped the 67 top 'n' tail on the Cardiff to Paignton diagram. Admittedly, this is now booked for a 150/9+153, but to have some on the evening Bristol to Cardiff trains would be really useful. Or even do similar to that in London, where there are a one or two extras as well as the normal half hourly timetable.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yeah but do you know that as a fact?


Also, most people somehow expect train fares to stay the same, but then at the same time expect a rise in pay for their job. What about FGW staff? Are they not allowed a rise in pay?

with inflation at 2% and bank rate at 0%, why should they up fares by treble this amount.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes but ATW's trains aren't that overcrowded and therefore they don't need extra stock.

I beg to differ. I don't know what FirstGW's services are like so they could well be worse than ATW's, but my opinion is that ATW do certainly have trains that are overcrowded and they do need more stock. The 2-car 175s booked on some south-Wales - Manchester workings do not provide enough capacity at several points between Swansea and Manchester. Even the 3-car 175s aren't enough at times.

How does an increase in price mean you should expect some magical improvement? Everyone expects this when it comes to the railways and bus companies etc, but I know that if I go into Tesco and buy a carton of orange juice, it will be more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Should I now expect this orange juice to give me magical powers, or to use some formula that makes it last longer? No. Thats just inflation.

That may be inflation, but rail fares are allowed to increase above inflation at present. Fares should only rise above inflation if something is done to make rail/bus a significantly more attractive mode versus less-sustatinable alternatives (eg. if they want to increase rail fares at RPI+3%, they should also increase fuel duty for private cars by at least that ammount).

 

[Gareth Marston]

with inflation at 2% and bank rate at 0%, why should they up fares by treble this amount.

According to those that put forward rail privitisation we should now be in the sunny uplands of virtually no public money going into the gently declining Victorian mode of travel as the private operators wOuld be so more efficient than bad old BR or did things not work out that way?

 

[The Ham]

You're going on the assumption that the fares will increase the same amount if FGW spent millions on new stock


I don't really understand this. Why do peoples standards always change when it comes to trains and public transport? How does an increase in price mean you should expect some magical improvement? Everyone expects this when it comes to the railways and bus companies etc, but I know that if I go into Tesco and buy a carton of orange juice, it will be more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Should I now expect this orange juice to give me magical powers, or to use some formula that makes it last longer? No. Thats just inflation. Yet I don't hear many twitter/facebook rants specifically aimed at this?
Also, most people somehow expect train fares to stay the same, but then at the same time expect a rise in pay for their job. What about FGW staff? Are they not allowed a rise in pay?

The big problem is that the rail network is limited in what extra traffic it can carry and so although the TOC's try their upmost to provide for everyone the improvements they make just make trains more popular. This means that either hugh projects are needed or prices go up to try and slow the rate of passenger growth.

Even if huge projects are proposed then they take time to do. For example Reading Station has been being worked on for some years now and will not be open for a bit yet. Likewise HS2 will not provide any benefit for a good few years.

Extra rolling stock is only one small part of what is needed, however as there is a limited amount of it the costs to lease it are big. With little need to build more (DMU's) due to the electrification program which is happening.

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes but ATW's trains aren't that overcrowded and therefore they don't need extra stock.

Rhydgaled has already commented on Manchester to West Wales route. Certain Cardiff/Holyheads, Llandudno/Manchester and Birmingham Int/Aberystwyth which can vary from portion to portion of journey and accoring to time of day. Try traveling on them full & standing.

 

[broadgage]

The comparison between increased train fares and increased orange juice prices in Tesco is not entirely relevant.
I would not expect that orange juice would have improved in qaulity when the price has increased due to inflation. I however hope that it has got no worse !
Train travel HAS in many cases got worse though. In many cases standing is now the norm on services on which a seat was previously available.
I can certainly remember sitting on loco hauled cross country services that are now standing room only, half size DMUs.
Seating layouts are generaly much worse than in years gone by. Main line services from Waterloo have been downgraded from mainline stock with 2+2 seating to inner surburban 2+3 layout, fares have increased by substantialy more than inflation to pay for this "improvement"
The new TOC that took over long distance services from London Liverpool street replaced 12 car inter city trains with 2+2 seating with 8 car high density units with 2+3 seating, again fares increased by more than inflation in order to pay for this "improvement"

This sort of thing is more like Tesco replacing 1L packs of pure orange juice with 687ML packs of orange flavour drink, and charging twice as much for the smaller pack of an inferior product.

 

[tbtc]

Why do peoples standards always change when it comes to trains and public transport? How does an increase in price mean you should expect some magical improvement? Everyone expects this when it comes to the railways and bus companies etc, but I know that if I go into Tesco and buy a carton of orange juice, it will be more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Should I now expect this orange juice to give me magical powers, or to use some formula that makes it last longer? No. Thats just inflation. Yet I don't hear many twitter/facebook rants specifically aimed at this?
Also, most people somehow expect train fares to stay the same, but then at the same time expect a rise in pay for their job. What about FGW staff? Are they not allowed a rise in pay?

A very sensible point.

TOCs see staff salaries go up at least in line with inflation each year (the cost of things like pensions go up significantly more), fuel costs seem to go up by more than inflation, insurance costs tend to go up by more than inflation...

...yet if a TOC dares to increase any fares by more than the headline rate of RPI there's a mass outrage (unless they can justify it by spending millions on new stock etc).

And your example with orange juice is, with all due respect, quite silly, as there's a CLEAR difference with the very minimal difference in taste of a drink and having to be squished into conditions on a train that are very much like the Black Hole of Calcutta for sixty minutes, which, at the same time, feels more like two hours

You are calling MCR247 "silly" and then claiming conditions on trains to be like the Black Hole of Calcutta? Erm...

If W&B services really are like the Black Hole of Calcutta then how come they require such huge subsidies btw?

That may be inflation, but rail fares are allowed to increase above inflation at present. Fares should only rise above inflation if something is done to make rail/bus a significantly more attractive mode versus less-sustatinable alternatives (eg. if they want to increase rail fares at RPI+3%, they should also increase fuel duty for private cars by at least that ammount)

Some costs go up by more than inflation, some costs go up by less than inflation. What you are suggesting makes no sense though.

 

[455driver]

Rail fares are going up by more than inflation because the government have decided that the passengers will start to pay 75% of the costs of the railway rather than the 50% they used to pay.

Who is responsible for stock provision?
Who is responsible for service provision?

Hardly the TOCs fault is it, but then "the usual suspects" just have to make everything the money grabbing TOCs fault regardless of the facts!

 

[Class 33]

.... Or even do similar to that in London, where there are a one or two extras as well as the normal half hourly timetable.

I do agree, at peak times they could run an additional service per hour to ease over-crowding. But I don't think FGW would be the least bit interested in doing so unfortunately. Also, a little tricky slotting in a path for such a service, what with the bottle-neck up to Filton Junction and then the two HST's per hour from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff/South Wales. But I believe it could just about be possible though with a bit of careful planning. I've had a little go myself...

There could be an additional 1740 service from Bristol-Cardiff.

Bristol Temple Meads 1740
Severn Tunnel Junction 1804
Newport 1816
Cardiff Central(arr) 1830

Would involve a relaxed run riding the yellows from Filton through to STJ following an HST from Bristol Parkway departing 1745. Then also allowing a Cross Country service to get in front from Severn Tunnel Junction.

Most likely not as easy as that though. There could be problems slotting in a path to arrive at an available platform in Cardiff Central at that peak time. Then there's the additional running costs of running this extra service.

So instead probably easier and cheaper just to run the 1721 from Bristol-Cardiff with a couple of extra carriages! Including maybe a Loco hauled service instead of a DMU.

 

[bb21]

The comparison between increased train fares and increased orange juice prices in Tesco is not entirely relevant.
I would not expect that orange juice would have improved in qaulity when the price has increased due to inflation. I however hope that it has got no worse !

Maybe not Tesco's Value orange juice but plenty of other things have shrunk in size and gone up in price.

If I remember correctly, there was a thread a while back in the General Discussions forum triggered by Innocent Smoothies being reduced from 1L to 750ml but the price staying the same without any prominent publicity.