First Group: General Discussion

[Baxenden Bank]

This is actually a reasonable step to take if First have worked out that the new arrangement was not functioning as it should.

What is less clear is why the local excuse for a newspaper has elected to sensationalise it by claiming that First are building a new depot. Clearly for six buses it's going to be a patch of land somewhere. And what TF the babbling rent-a-quote garbage at the end has to do with anything, I have no idea.

I don't understand the given logic behind the move and suspect management BS. If roadworks in Hanley are making the services unreliable, how will opening a 'depot' in Newcastle resolve this? The services operate nowhere near Hanley.

Why only these three, fairly minor, routes? involving only six buses.

Let me guess which three First Potteries routes will be cut in the next service review 'to remove operational inefficiencies caused by having a small sub-depot'

Service 22, one of the routes to be operated from the new depot, has one end of its route only a few minutes from Adderley Green depot. Contrast this with service 3 which sees several buses per day running either private to Crewe, or in service at oh my god'o'clock.

For the remainder (72 and 97), I cannot see early morning 'empty from depot' journeys being affected by alleged traffic problems (unless some management guru has decided 5 minutes from Adderley Green to Newcastle to take up service is reasonable)!

First Potteries are keen on convoluted 'linked' services, which in a conurbation with a poor road network is a reliability disaster waiting to happen. Look at the 'Cherry Routes'. A diagram 7 hours and 31 minutes long before a bus repeats itself. Any disruption within this time having day long knock on effects.

Surely a case for a similar small depot in Crewe (and Leek, Cheadle and Stone/Stafford to boot for similar services).

Hey, why not have small sub-depots close to the routes operated (overnight clean and re-fuel only) and a large central workshop for engineering!

You might even have a fitter based at Hanley bus station to deal with minor in service faults!

 

[d1672]

Hi,

In tonight's Glasgow Evening Times it states on the front page that First Glasgow have applied for another Fares Increase. This is not good news, as service cuts are taking place this weekend.

There is a public meeting in Cumbernauld this evening about the effects of the withdrawal of the X5 on Abronhill, Kildrum and Condorrat.

Thomas

 

[Volvodart]

It is not a fare increase. First have applied to the CMA for the release of the undertakings applied when it acquired SB Holdings Limited and apply to a fare cap for Glasgow and Scotland East and minimum service level requirement for Scotland East.

 

[overthewater]

It is not a fare increase. First have applied to the CMA for the release of the undertakings applied when it acquired SB Holdings Limited and apply to a fare cap for Glasgow and Scotland East and minimum service level requirement for Scotland East.

What minimum service level requirement for Scotland East? Thats already been dropped, thus service 58 been curtailed to nothing, 27 been scaled back, and X37/39 has had its evening service reduced. Other parts have also been revised.

 

[Volvodart]

That was to do with Scotrail. This is Strathclyde Buses acquisition. It is not specific routes it is the total amount that they are allowed to reduce commercial mileage to compared to what it was in 2002.

 

[smtglasgow]

I think the issue of fares is central to First’s Glasgow problem. As far as I can work out, the Firstcard (which First don’t advertise, but which the majority of passengers use) is regulated. When I moved back to Glasgow in the summer I was amazed to find I could buy a ten week Firstcard for £88. £8.80 a week for Glasgow City and East Kilbride is a steal nowadays – the (unregulated?) Firstweek is £17 and the 10 week version of Firstweek is £96. Similarly, the £2 city single is high compared to Lothian, but cheaper than most other cities. East Kilbride to Glasgow is over 10 miles, but £2 single, so I guess First would want to create a new zone for EK like they did with Kirkintilloch. I’d normally be against any fare increase, but for once I can understand where First are coming from with this. One of the main competitors in the Glasgow area is Scotrail, and I reckon that the low return fares on the trains will force First to rein in any increases.

Out of interest, what are City-suburb fares in other comparable cities?

 

[the101]

I don't understand the given logic behind the move and suspect management BS. If roadworks in Hanley are making the services unreliable, how will opening a 'depot' in Newcastle resolve this? The services operate nowhere near Hanley.

Why only these three, fairly minor, routes? involving only six buses.

Let me guess which three First Potteries routes will be cut in the next service review 'to remove operational inefficiencies caused by having a small sub-depot'

Service 22, one of the routes to be operated from the new depot, has one end of its route only a few minutes from Adderley Green depot. Contrast this with service 3 which sees several buses per day running either private to Crewe, or in service at oh my god'o'clock.

For the remainder (72 and 97), I cannot see early morning 'empty from depot' journeys being affected by alleged traffic problems (unless some management guru has decided 5 minutes from Adderley Green to Newcastle to take up service is reasonable)!

First Potteries are keen on convoluted 'linked' services, which in a conurbation with a poor road network is a reliability disaster waiting to happen. Look at the 'Cherry Routes'. A diagram 7 hours and 31 minutes long before a bus repeats itself. Any disruption within this time having day long knock on effects.

Surely a case for a similar small depot in Crewe (and Leek, Cheadle and Stone/Stafford to boot for similar services).

Hey, why not have small sub-depots close to the routes operated (overnight clean and re-fuel only) and a large central workshop for engineering!

You might even have a fitter based at Hanley bus station to deal with minor in service faults!

I'd have thought it quite obvious. The three particular routes do not serve Hanley, but they interwork with others which do, as at the moment drivers' breaks are only taken in Hanley.

This is where the traffic problems are arising.

Establishing a small base in Newcastle will allow the interworking to stop and remove the imported unreliability.

 

[overthewater]

Interrelation to whats been postage about the undertakings.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/firstgroup-plc-request-to-release-merger-undertakings

It might interest people to have a GOOD READ of the documents especial this one
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-_Application_for_release_of_undertakings.pdf

This is just dated a month ago......

Point 152: Despite extensive management time and effort, FirstGroup has not been able to turn around the Scotland East business


I know someone people are going to be banging their heads against a wall this has once again been brought up but we keep on highlighting this fact, and it never gone away; It needs to be sorted once and for all.

I cant believe the departure fee for the Galashields bus station are set increase from 35p to £1.75; is a disgrace.

 

[Volvodart]

I was waiting for you to post this.

 

[overthewater]

I was waiting for you to post this.

I was waiting for you post that.

My question is this, will this finally sort out this mess? Its not good for me, you, the traveling public etc. but the underlining problems need to be resolved, or First group will never be able to get out of the hole its in, the public will not see any overall improvements and no one will won.

Its clear some parts of the company do pay, so I don't believe the rug will get pulled right out.

 

[Surreyman]

Interrelation to whats been postage about the undertakings.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/firstgroup-plc-request-to-release-merger-undertakings

It might interest people to have a GOOD READ of the documents especial this one
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...-_Application_for_release_of_undertakings.pdf

This is just dated a month ago......

Point 152: Despite extensive management time and effort, FirstGroup has not been able to turn around the Scotland East business


I know someone people are going to be banging their heads against a wall this has once again been brought up but we keep on highlighting this fact, and it never gone away; It needs to be sorted once and for all.

I cant believe the departure fee for the Galashields bus station are set increase from 35p to £1.75; is a disgrace.

Having ploughed through the article, I am left with a conclusion that seems to say: -
We FirstBus, are making losses, we would like to be released from the scheme, so that we can 'right-size' the business i.e scale it back.
(Apologies for using an Americanism that basically means in this case - cut routes/frequencies and staff).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Having ploughed through the article, I am left with a conclusion that seems to say: -
We FirstBus, are making losses, we would like to be released from the scheme, so that we can 'right-size' the business i.e scale it back.
(Apologies for using an Americanism that basically means in this case - cut routes/frequencies and staff).

You ploughed through it and still got it wrong....:roll:

They have a set of conditions in there that basically are stopping them from doing anything. They were placed there in 2004 with the best of intentions but clearly the

Essentially, they can't increase fares to where they should be. Whilst that is harming First, the law of unintended consequences mean that it is also stopping competition as fares are below the costs of operation. Secondly, they've now reached a point where they cannot now reduce any mileage so they'll be forced to operate unprofitable routes.

I know you have some pathological hatred of First (which is weird as you don't actually use them and they don't operate where you live) but the idea of the undertakings was not to force any operator to run at a loss.

 

[overthewater]

The question of the fairs is more linked to First Glasgow then FSE, if that is the case then its load of hogwash. Lothian is competing against First in East Lothian and First HAD to lower its fairs to match them. Blue bus and SD travel in West Lothian also under cut First.

 

[ChrisPJ]

First seems to have simply resigned itself to inevitable decline. When it was in a position of strength to grow and prosper. Although it hasn't done this, it is still dominant in the central belt so why should the undertakings be lifted?

And the bit about replacing buses ahead of lifespan for PSVAR is complete bollocks, there's been 15 years warning on this, plenty time to plan proper fleet replacement or modifications.

 

[overthewater]

First seems to have simply resigned itself to inevitable decline. When it was in a position of strength to grow and prosper. Although it hasn't done this, it is still dominant in the central belt so why should the undertakings be lifted?

And the bit about replacing buses ahead of lifespan for PSVAR is complete bollocks, there's been 15 years warning on this, plenty time to plan proper fleet replacement or modifications.

Don't forgot the Scotrail controls aswell, which meant it had to operate bus routes which were never fit or practicable 10 years later. Many parts of the Central belt are completely different since 2004.

 

[Surreyman]

I know you have some pathological hatred of First (which is weird as you don't actually use them and they don't operate where you live) [/QUOTE]

I plead guilty as charged
but would point out that today I drove behind 2 separate Streetlites, north of Portsmouth, every Friday I am in Slough, I visit Scotland several times a year & use First Glasgow & FSE in Stirling.
Even use the Bluecoach in Dublin at least once a year!

 

[robertclark125]

How many of the Scotrail controls have been lifted?

The thing about the undertakings given when it acquired SB Holdings, there has been a material change, in that Glasgow Citybus has a few routes, and Stagecoach are now operating a few routes. Cumbernauld has some smaller operators, as does East Kilbride. Mcgills prowls on the western fringes, and when I was last in Motherwell there was an independent operator.

This of course leads to two points. Firstly, although it is only small pockets, First has got some competition, and with one of them being a big group, and the other being backed by WCM, that would be classified as being capable of competing, as the old CC required to the purchaser of Preston Bus.

The second point is, that where there are no rivals, is that actually as a result of action by First, or as a result of a rival trying, and failing through getting it badly wrong? If it's the latter, that's hardly First's fault.

 

[overthewater]

How many of the Scotrail controls have been lifted?.

All of them

The second point is, that where there are no rivals, is that actually as a result of action by First, or as a result of a rival trying, and failing through getting it badly wrong? If it's the latter, that's hardly First's fault.

To be fair First never got rid of them, it just there went pop, remember:

* City sprinter
* Mckindless
* PD travel
* That company which went to the south side, in red buses.

And many others....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I know you have some pathological hatred of First (which is weird as you don't actually use them and they don't operate where you live)

I plead guilty as charged
but would point out that today I drove behind 2 separate Streetlites, north of Portsmouth, every Friday I am in Slough, I visit Scotland several times a year & use First Glasgow & FSE in Stirling.
Even use the Bluecoach in Dublin at least once a year![/QUOTE]

You drove behind TWO SEPARATE Streetlites - wow. And you visit Slough. Well, can't get much more in depth than that. Working on that basis, I've travelled on 6 flights this year, went past Heathrow last week, and saw a plane in the sky - don't make me an expert of aeronautical matters.

First are my local firm in Bath/Bristol. They ain't perfect and the years of underinvestment by that cattle farmer and his pride driven folly will take years to unwind.

However, in my experience of using them regularly, I can say with some justification that they're pretty decent and when the non DDA stuff gets culled in a few months time, it'll be not a bad fleet. Certainly, could be better and some further refurbishing would help but in my experience, they're no worse than Go Ahead, marginally behind Arriva but some way behind Stagecoach.

And of course, there are variations in each business. First in South Wales are probably as good as Stagecoach if not better (and that's a huge change over the last three years when any trip in Swansea involved some crappy Marshall Dart)

 

[AB93]

I plead guilty as charged
but would point out that today I drove behind 2 separate Streetlites, north of Portsmouth, every Friday I am in Slough, I visit Scotland several times a year & use First Glasgow & FSE in Stirling.
Even use the Bluecoach in Dublin at least once a year!

You drove behind TWO SEPARATE Streetlites - wow. And you visit Slough. Well, can't get much more in depth than that. Working on that basis, I've travelled on 6 flights this year, went past Heathrow last week, and saw a plane in the sky - don't make me an expert of aeronautical matters.

Oooh, ahhh, indeed, two! Presumably the first StreetLite was belching out thick black smoke and then caught fire, and the second left the road and ran over a kitten?

And of course, there are variations in each business. First in South Wales are probably as good as Stagecoach if not better (and that's a huge change over the last three years when any trip in Swansea involved some crappy Marshall Dart)

Indeed - and the bizarre thing is, in Surrey, there's no way First Slough is worse than Arriva Guildford.

 

[Surreyman]

I plead guilty as charged
but would point out that today I drove behind 2 separate Streetlites, north of Portsmouth, every Friday I am in Slough, I visit Scotland several times a year & use First Glasgow & FSE in Stirling.
Even use the Bluecoach in Dublin at least once a year!

You drove behind TWO SEPARATE Streetlites - wow. And you visit Slough. Well, can't get much more in depth than that. Working on that basis, I've travelled on 6 flights this year, went past Heathrow last week, and saw a plane in the sky - don't make me an expert of aeronautical matters.

First are my local firm in Bath/Bristol. They ain't perfect and the years of underinvestment by that cattle farmer and his pride driven folly will take years to unwind.

However, in my experience of using them regularly, I can say with some justification that they're pretty decent and when the non DDA stuff gets culled in a few months time, it'll be not a bad fleet. Certainly, could be better and some further refurbishing would help but in my experience, they're no worse than Go Ahead, marginally behind Arriva but some way behind Stagecoach.

And of course, there are variations in each business. First in South Wales are probably as good as Stagecoach if not better (and that's a huge change over the last three years when any trip in Swansea involved some crappy Marshall Dart)[/QUOTE]

Ouch - reeling from the sarcasm GrandWazoo!
On a more serious note I would broadly agree with your comments re the
big 4
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed - and the bizarre thing is, in Surrey, there's no way First Slough is worse than Arriva Guildford.[/QUOTE]

Bizarre but absolutely true!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You drove behind TWO SEPARATE Streetlites - wow. And you visit Slough. Well, can't get much more in depth than that. Working on that basis, I've travelled on 6 flights this year, went past Heathrow last week, and saw a plane in the sky - don't make me an expert of aeronautical matters.

First are my local firm in Bath/Bristol. They ain't perfect and the years of underinvestment by that cattle farmer and his pride driven folly will take years to unwind.

However, in my experience of using them regularly, I can say with some justification that they're pretty decent and when the non DDA stuff gets culled in a few months time, it'll be not a bad fleet. Certainly, could be better and some further refurbishing would help but in my experience, they're no worse than Go Ahead, marginally behind Arriva but some way behind Stagecoach.

And of course, there are variations in each business. First in South Wales are probably as good as Stagecoach if not better (and that's a huge change over the last three years when any trip in Swansea involved some crappy Marshall Dart)

Ouch - reeling from the sarcasm GrandWazoo!
On a more serious note I would broadly agree with your comments re the
big 4
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed - and the bizarre thing is, in Surrey, there's no way First Slough is worse than Arriva Guildford.[/QUOTE]

Bizarre but absolutely true![/QUOTE]

Yep, sarcasm......subtlety wouldn't have worked

 

[pompeyfan]

I know you have some pathological hatred of First (which is weird as you don't actually use them and they don't operate where you live)

I plead guilty as charged
but would point out that today I drove behind 2 separate Streetlites, north of Portsmouth, every Friday I am in Slough, I visit Scotland several times a year & use First Glasgow & FSE in Stirling.
Even use the Bluecoach in Dublin at least once a year!

Where have you got this quote from SurryMan? I don't recall seeing it originally and it doesn't come up in a search.

 

[Surreyman]

Where have you got this quote from SurryMan? I don't recall seeing it originally and it doesn't come up in a search.

Pathological hatred bit is from Grandwazoo, the other comment is mine.

 

[the101]

And the bit about replacing buses ahead of lifespan for PSVAR is complete bollocks, there's been 15 years warning on this, plenty time to plan proper fleet replacement or modifications.

This, 100%.

The need for DDA compliance by set dates has been known about for years, and it says something about an operator's level of basic competence if they are only now seeking to blame it for goodness knows what.

It's the same scenario of mismanagement at Potteries: in past years its fleet was packed full of buses dating from between 1997-2000, none of which were compliant. Little surprise then that it has been (and continues to be) an unorganised scramble to get all single-deckers compliant by the beginning of next year. Even then lessons have still not been learned, and the Potteries fleet now continues to gain buses dating from between 2002-2005... which will signal another scramble as they all come up for replacement at around the same time.

Couple a ragbag, rundown, awfully-presented fleet with a driving staff which is clearly utterly demoralised and it's a very dodgy situation for a company to be in.

 

[Robertj21a]

This, 100%.

The need for DDA compliance by set dates has been known about for years, and it says something about an operator's level of basic competence if they are only now seeking to blame it for goodness knows what.

It's the same scenario of mismanagement at Potteries: in past years its fleet was packed full of buses dating from between 1997-2000, none of which were compliant. Little surprise then that it has been (and continues to be) an unorganised scramble to get all single-deckers compliant by the beginning of next year. Even then lessons have still not been learned, and the Potteries fleet now continues to gain buses dating from between 2002-2005... which will signal another scramble as they all come up for replacement at around the same time.

Couple a ragbag, rundown, awfully-presented fleet with a driving staff which is clearly utterly demoralised and it's a very dodgy situation for a company to be in.

While I agree with much of what you say, they are reported to be about to get 4 extra double deckers from Leicester (though 51-reg), so must be doing something right.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Lucky them!

How frustrating must it be for engineering staff. On one hand they may have been taking good care of buses delivered new to them then suddenly cascaded away elsewhere. On the other receiving older kit which has pretty much completed a full service life, an unknown quantity, then comes the pressure to ensure the buses can do a whole days work, yes it happens at Stagecoach and the others, but it seems First have taken vehicle movements to a whole new level.

 

[THarris123]

While I agree with much of what you say, they are reported to be about to get 4 extra double deckers from Leicester (though 51-reg), so must be doing something right.

Not enough though to clear the 30 odd non dda single decks left!

I wonder what else Potteries can expect by the end of the year.

I expect they'll get something new next year. If Cornwall are getting something new (as rumours go) then anythings possible with Potteries.

 

[winston270twm]

Not enough though to clear the 30 odd non dda single decks left!

I wonder what else Potteries can expect by the end of the year.

I expect they'll get something new next year. If Cornwall are getting something new (as rumours go) then anythings possible with Potteries.

18 ex Worcester E300's are due to move in to Potteries before the years out/once the 4 x Streetdecks (enter service) & 9 x new Streetlites (are deliviered) That will remove a large chunk of the 30!

 

[Robertj21a]

Not enough though to clear the 30 odd non dda single decks left!

I wonder what else Potteries can expect by the end of the year.

I expect they'll get something new next year. If Cornwall are getting something new (as rumours go) then anythings possible with Potteries.

The 4 Leicester deckers are being swapped with 4 Potteries single deckers that are DDA compliant so that doesn't really help the non-DDA dilemma. However, as has been pointed out, those E300s at Worcester will soon be on their way.