First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

Then maybe should sell off something which would pay of alot of the debt, like Greyhound.

That would be may favoured asset disposal and the markets expected to First Group to do that after they first acquired Laidlaw. It should attract a decent price, put a big dent in current debt levels, the only downside is it would further hit First Group profits by approx. £50 million.

But they can't have it all their own way!

 

[Surreyman]

That would be may favoured asset disposal and the markets expected to First Group to do that after they first acquired Laidlaw. It should attract a decent price, put a big dent in current debt levels, the only downside is it would further hit First Group profits by approx. £50 million.

But they can't have it all their own way!

Well i can tell you that after a meeting today.

At least one company is for sale and at least another 2 garages will close. I'm not privvy as yet as to what and whom but first are in retrenchment.

Mr Managers post would seem to imply that he is referring to FIRST UK Bus
& therefore the 'Company' for sale is a UK bus unit, 'at least another 2 garages will close' would seem to confirm that.

 

[winston270twm]

Mr Managers post would seem to imply that he is referring to FIRST UK Bus
& therefore the 'Company' for sale is a UK bus unit, 'at least another 2 garages will close' would seem to confirm that.

I realise that, but if debt has become a bigger issue again due to the points I highlighted on posts further up this thread, anything they would be looking to sell / would be prepared to sell from UK Bus would not put much of a dent in Group debt compared with sacrificing something like Greyhound (which is non core) and a sale would allow them to keep all First Student, Transit & UK Bus businesses intact.

 

[Robertj21a]

I reckon I'd probably agree with Julian Peddle about the state of the big five bus companies.

Go Ahead seem determined to centralise, which is going to destroy all that has been good about them in the last decade. But they're not even centralising in a coherent way; certainly up here their branding is in a proper muddle these days. I don't think it is going to end well.

Arriva are an odd one. MAX and Sapphire are not as innovative as they think they are, even if they have just won a gong for innovation with MAX, yet they're the bits they're making a song and dance about. The really innovative stuff- the mobile ticketing and bus tracking system- barely gets mentioned, yet nobody else does it.

Stagecoach can be innovative when they want to be, but usually only when they're forced to be. They can adapt to new markets but they're also the slowest at incorporating new technology; their website, for instance, is a disaster zone and has been for many years. I don't think they're anywhere near as good as their reputation would have you think.

Which leads us nicely on to First. I really don't understand what they are playing it. Getting rid of loss-making depots makes sense, but that doesn't seem to be what is happening. They seem to have decided that anything that isn't making 10% isn't worth keeping, which shows a startling lack of understanding of the industry for me. As we've seen so many times, scaling back on low-margin routes and depots just allows competitors to move in on to your patch. And before long your high margin depots are struggling because your competitors have a sound base and can use it to have a proper go on your best routes. Arriva learned this the hard way a few years ago and it looks as though First didn't pay attention.

The other issue with First is that it just breeds instability. I couldn't say there is a single business that isn't vulnerable, even their original heartlands in Bristol, Aberdeen and West Yorkshire. I don't see how they can encourage the best people to stay in their business if there is that little stability.

First appears to have developed a 'death wish' in recent times with a blunt profit target which isn't light years away from some of Moir's silliness. They also appear to be reluctant to give their senior staff very much real authority to manage their parts of the overall business. Not much point in recruiting talented people if you just tie them to your apron strings.

 

[winston270twm]

First appears to have developed a 'death wish' in recent times with a blunt profit target which isn't light years away from some of Moir's silliness. They also appear to be reluctant to give their senior staff very much real authority to manage their parts of the overall business. Not much point in recruiting talented people if you just tie them to your apron strings.

I've noticed that as well, they were meant to be decentralizing some decisions & leaving it local management, but their strings are still being pulled by Aberdeen leaving them with little room for manoeuvre

 

[ChrisPJ]

I think it goes further up the hierarchy than that, I look at what Blazefield used to be like then I look at what First have done in the last couple of years and I think, really? Surely Giles wasn't the brains behind that?

 

[overthewater]

I think it goes further up the hierarchy than that, I look at what Blazefield used to be like then I look at what First have done in the last couple of years and I think, really? Surely Giles wasn't the brains behind that?

Big difference, lack of money.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Winston/Robert

You say a lot that I agree with but I do have to argue the point back. In the Moir era, the business was micromanaged. There was little or no local decision making - local management was merely to execute whatever came from the top.

That is markedly different and OpCo Directors have a lot more scope to manage locally. The most obvious areas are things like local branding - Southampton Reds and the microsite being an example. Some businesses use Best Impressions extensively (long standing personal relationships) - others don't. Similarly, the OpCos have the ability to make certain strategic decisions like the creation of the Cymru Clipper network.

What they don't have is total autonomy but hey, no large business does that. Stagecoach don't do that. For example, when Stagecoach Devon decided to tender for North Devon work and then engage in commercial competition, that wasn't a unilateral decision locally nor was it a pronouncement from Brian Souter. The local management spot an opportunity and they will then look to agree it as a strategic measure - you don't give total freedom to local managers as they may well not have a full view on what is going on (e.g. why jeopardise a bigger deal by doing something daft locally).
There have been examples of this with First - Ipswich, Cornwall, Bristol to name but three. The local management have seen the position on the ground but they aren't just going to act unilaterally.

The main issue seems to surround the retrenchment in certain areas. Again, First is perhaps no different to many other businesses in that they will expect to achieve certain margins. For them, the issue is more pressing than others. Now, each OpCo will have financial objectives etc plus the need to comply with DDA. Surely, if this was some central diktat of cutting x% of mileage then why have some OpCos barely changed their operations (West of England, Cornwall, Wales)? Much more like hitting their numbers - the assumption is that the numbers are realistic but that stands for any business whether it be buses or biscuits.

Same with fleet movements (especially in terms of DDA compliance) and, in fact, you're seeing more evidence of "local deals and swaps" than with Stagecoach or Arriva. FHDB don't really like deckers - FWoE need more to cope with passenger figures so local swaps have happened to enable that. However, there is always the central control of much vehicle purchasing and the impact of cascading vehicles around the country. Prevalent now with DDA compliance but generally no different to Stagecoach - for First mobilising to cover WGL's failure, see Stagecoach diverting fleet to move into Plymouth?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The main issue seems to surround the retrenchment in certain areas. Again, First is perhaps no different to many other businesses in that they will expect to achieve certain margins. For them, the issue is more pressing than others.

I think the retrenchment is where First are going wrong. We saw that in North Devon, where they decided not to bid for low value tendered work which meant Stagecoach were on their doorstep using the tendered work as a way of supporting commercial competition. Before long, First were out, having agreed a fairly poor price with Stagecoach before the Competition Commission didn't even let them have that. The same thing happened in Lothian.

There's no point running stuff that barely breaks even, or even loses money, just for the sake of it, but First do seemed to have latched on to a uniform margin and are abandoning anything that doesn't meet it, even urban operations like Wigan. I don't know if this is coming from the management or from the bankers. But the retrenchment is only going to devalue the rest of the business.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the retrenchment is where First are going wrong. We saw that in North Devon, where they decided not to bid for low value tendered work which meant Stagecoach were on their doorstep using the tendered work as a way of supporting commercial competition. Before long, First were out, having agreed a fairly poor price with Stagecoach before the Competition Commission didn't even let them have that. The same thing happened in Lothian.

There's no point running stuff that barely breaks even, or even loses money, just for the sake of it, but First do seemed to have latched on to a uniform margin and are abandoning anything that doesn't meet it, even urban operations like Wigan. I don't know if this is coming from the management or from the bankers. But the retrenchment is only going to devalue the rest of the business.

Wigan was not disposed of because of margins. The fleet was old and it (the inherent value of the operation) was worth something so went towards the £100m target. The margin was actually fairly decent (though the minimal depreciation will have helped).

First don't have a blanket approach towards margin. Places like Somerset and Cornwall will be fairly thin territory for anyone (not that old First didn't mismanage) and that can be seen elsewhere. Note that in the Potteries, Arriva couldn't make it work (withdrawing from the area for a second time).

The issue of running low margin work to protect market share is not an exact science but my experience is that they are a lot more pragmatic. Take First Midland Red. They've closed Hereford and walked away - not certain why that is but assume it was either loss making or low margin. Closing it solves part of the DDA problem but then look at Worcester where they have taken on a route from Astons PLUS have created new services to Evesham (including a return to Alcester) and Halesowen. It's all a bit more nuanced

First West of England have pulled out of a few routes on the Wilts/Somerset border but it was almost a case of walking away from low margin or basket cases and then using the assets in Bristol or Somerset. In Plymouth, they've removed the gangrenous limb and probably done so without incurring much of the exit costs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Wigan was not disposed of because of margins. The fleet was old and it (the inherent value of the operation) was worth something so went towards the £100m target. The margin was actually fairly decent (though the minimal depreciation will have helped).

Ah, I thought it was, stand corrected.

 

[baza585]

Wigan was not disposed of because of margins. The fleet was old and it (the inherent value of the operation) was worth something so went towards the £100m target. The margin was actually fairly decent (though the minimal depreciation will have helped).

First don't have a blanket approach towards margin. Places like Somerset and Cornwall will be fairly thin territory for anyone (not that old First didn't mismanage) and that can be seen elsewhere. Note that in the Potteries, Arriva couldn't make it work (withdrawing from the area for a second time).

The issue of running low margin work to protect market share is not an exact science but my experience is that they are a lot more pragmatic. Take First Midland Red. They've closed Hereford and walked away - not certain why that is but assume it was either loss making or low margin. Closing it solves part of the DDA problem but then look at Worcester where they have taken on a route from Astons PLUS have created new services to Evesham (including a return to Alcester) and Halesowen. It's all a bit more nuanced

First West of England have pulled out of a few routes on the Wilts/Somerset border but it was almost a case of walking away from low margin or basket cases and then using the assets in Bristol or Somerset. In Plymouth, they've removed the gangrenous limb and probably done so without incurring much of the exit costs.

Re Wigan it would be interesting to know how Stagecoach are doing with a newer fleet. I'm not clear whether the driver for First's sale of Wigan was we can't make (enough) money if we put a decent fleet into Wigan or whether it was more about raising cash and helping towards DDA targets. I think First's management have steered a fairly sensible ship in recent years, unlike the days of Moir. Plymouth was a cheap exit from a hole they were in; Bracknell ditto. Don't know about Hereford - but as you say, it helped the DDA plan for this year.

Potteries is interesting - given Arriva's two failures, I'm not surprised First are struggling but closing Newcastle will help on costs, although if they needed an outstation locally, they should have sorted that out at the same time as they announced the closure.

I can't quite fathom why First closing depots generates so much antipathy from so-called enthusiasts, whilst Stagecoach (who are also closing depots) don't. Weird.

Has anyone worked out what Go Ahead's strategy is yet, or don't they have one? Seems to currently be to pick battles with First wherever they can; doesn't make sense to me because they are taking on routes in Southampton they can never win on, unless they believe some or all of FHD is up for sale. But even if it is up for sale, I can't see that they would be allowed to buy it; as in Plymouth, they are quite likely to end up in a war with Stagecoach instead! That would not be a smart move..............

 

[overthewater]

Firstly it seem stagecoach are doing rather well in Wigan and are still inverting a new stock: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/StagecoachX3434.aspx

I still don't get why potteries is such a bad bus area.

Yes Stagecoach are closings depots but, their overall commercial network is still the same. Unlike First who's own commercial network continues to be reduced overall. Saying that no one seems to care Parkhead in Glasgow is going because everything is being transfered into the new Super depot.

 

[Robertj21a]

.
Hereford seemed a bit odd as First hadn't long sought, and won, quite a lot of fresh tendered work to help improve the situation there.

As I and others seem to be saying rather frequently, it's Potteries that I don't understand. Only D & G seem to be achieving anything there and it will be interesting to see whether First continue to reduce their operations in the future.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Potteries is interesting - given Arriva's two failures, I'm not surprised First are struggling

I can't understand why the Potteries is such a bad bus area. It, on paper, has everything you need for a relatively successful bus area: low incomes and low car ownership. I can see why the stuff in rural Staffordshire and Cheshire would struggle, but there should be enough in Stoke and Newcastle-under-Lyme to keep the business going.

I can't quite fathom why First closing depots generates so much antipathy from so-called enthusiasts, whilst Stagecoach (who are also closing depots) don't. Weird.

I think it is the difference between consolidation and retrenchment. Consolidating a few depots into one big depot makes sense; Go North East have done it in Gateshead. I'm not sure First are always doing that though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I can't understand why the Potteries is such a bad bus area. It, on paper, has everything you need for a relatively successful bus area: low incomes and low car ownership. I can see why the stuff in rural Staffordshire and Cheshire would struggle, but there should be enough in Stoke and Newcastle-under-Lyme to keep the business going.



I think it is the difference between consolidation and retrenchment. Consolidating a few depots into one big depot makes sense; Go North East have done it in Gateshead. I'm not sure First are always doing that though.

This is the point. Some moves are consolidation - Potteries was a case of reducing the depot overheads by more than half but then trying to make it fit into AG. The odd thing is that they didn't open an outbase to enable that but have now done so after service cuts!

Don't know about Hereford but interesting that Stagecoach weren't interested - perhaps that tells a story? Plymouth was a basket case so no issues there.

As for the difference between Stagecoach and First's recent closures - well, when they lost a load of schools work, it created capacity in the Stagecoach Fife network and they could close a depot right in the centre of things. When that happened to First in Bracknell, the only depot available was Slough so the local work and the 90 were going to be hard to cover.

Note the closure of Pontardawe by First.... that could be easily covered by Port Talbot and Ravenhill and was.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Firstly it seem stagecoach are doing rather well in Wigan and are still inverting a new stock: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/StagecoachX3434.aspx

I still don't get why potteries is such a bad bus area.

The X34/34 was one of the few routes that Wigan depot operated that did get new fleet. The B9s that Stagecoach have were from there IIRC. Sure they'd liked to have retained Wigan and doubtless makes decent margin for Stagecoach but it was a saleable asset when they needed to raise funds . Avoiding replacing an ancient fleet was a Brucie Bonus!!

 

[ChrisPJ]

Surprised me that First didn't transfer DDA fleet out of Wigan and SC accepted relatively non standard vehicle types for them. Though the newish Volvo deckers have been salted away elsewhere since.

 

[winston270twm]

Winston/Robert

You say a lot that I agree with but I do have to argue the point back. In the Moir era, the business was micromanaged. There was little or no local decision making - local management was merely to execute whatever came from the top.

That is markedly different and OpCo Directors have a lot more scope to manage locally. The most obvious areas are things like local branding - Southampton Reds and the microsite being an example. Some businesses use Best Impressions extensively (long standing personal relationships) - others don't. Similarly, the OpCos have the ability to make certain strategic decisions like the creation of the Cymru Clipper network.

What they don't have is total autonomy but hey, no large business does that. Stagecoach don't do that. For example, when Stagecoach Devon decided to tender for North Devon work and then engage in commercial competition, that wasn't a unilateral decision locally nor was it a pronouncement from Brian Souter. The local management spot an opportunity and they will then look to agree it as a strategic measure - you don't give total freedom to local managers as they may well not have a full view on what is going on (e.g. why jeopardise a bigger deal by doing something daft locally).
There have been examples of this with First - Ipswich, Cornwall, Bristol to name but three. The local management have seen the position on the ground but they aren't just going to act unilaterally.

The main issue seems to surround the retrenchment in certain areas. Again, First is perhaps no different to many other businesses in that they will expect to achieve certain margins. For them, the issue is more pressing than others. Now, each OpCo will have financial objectives etc plus the need to comply with DDA. Surely, if this was some central diktat of cutting x% of mileage then why have some OpCos barely changed their operations (West of England, Cornwall, Wales)? Much more like hitting their numbers - the assumption is that the numbers are realistic but that stands for any business whether it be buses or biscuits.

Same with fleet movements (especially in terms of DDA compliance) and, in fact, you're seeing more evidence of "local deals and swaps" than with Stagecoach or Arriva. FHDB don't really like deckers - FWoE need more to cope with passenger figures so local swaps have happened to enable that. However, there is always the central control of much vehicle purchasing and the impact of cascading vehicles around the country. Prevalent now with DDA compliance but generally no different to Stagecoach - for First mobilising to cover WGL's failure, see Stagecoach diverting fleet to move into Plymouth?

TGW,

Are you sure about the above statement? Some Op's seem as though they more flexibility than others:

See the comment below from midlandred.net in relation to the refurb'd B7RLE/Centro 66694 (branded for the X50) having the same magenta front as the 4 new Streetdecks branded for the 44 & completely different routes:

http://midlandred.net/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1439988371/s-30/

I had a chat with the MD about these vehicles the other day. He said they looked at red fronts but they felt it didn't work with the rest of the First Group design, which is still controlled by Group policy. I put forward the suggestions made on this forum that the X50 should continue to either Redditch or Statford-upon-Avon and the reply was that they will monitor how well things go for now, then look at other options for next year.

Of the nine Volvos, a total of five will have the full refurb and two of them will be branded for the X50. They are not too happy with the service provided by the company that did 66694 so they are sending the other four elsewhere. I was a bit surprised at this as they were the same people who did 67664 and 33404 and those jobs were first class.

66694 is not back in service yet. When I took it out for photos the inside looked like a building site with cables hanging from the roof and tools all over the floor! The new hand rails are not fitted but were stored at the back of the bus wrapped in packing paper. I had a peek at one to check the colour and to my surprise they are not StreetLite pink but are Mercedes Vario blue. All the seats are now fitted and look very inviting, but the one I tested was rather firm. The seatbelts are still fitted.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TGW,

Are you sure about the above statement? Some Op's seem as though they more flexibility than others:

See the comment below from midlandred.net in relation to the refurb'd B7RLE/Centro 66694 (branded for the X50) having the same magenta front as the 4 new Streetdecks branded for the 44 & completely different routes:

http://midlandred.net/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1439988371/s-30/

I had a chat with the MD about these vehicles the other day. He said they looked at red fronts but they felt it didn't work with the rest of the First Group design, which is still controlled by Group policy. I put forward the suggestions made on this forum that the X50 should continue to either Redditch or Statford-upon-Avon and the reply was that they will monitor how well things go for now, then look at other options for next year.

Of the nine Volvos, a total of five will have the full refurb and two of them will be branded for the X50. They are not too happy with the service provided by the company that did 66694 so they are sending the other four elsewhere. I was a bit surprised at this as they were the same people who did 67664 and 33404 and those jobs were first class.

66694 is not back in service yet. When I took it out for photos the inside looked like a building site with cables hanging from the roof and tools all over the floor! The new hand rails are not fitted but were stored at the back of the bus wrapped in packing paper. I had a peek at one to check the colour and to my surprise they are not StreetLite pink but are Mercedes Vario blue. All the seats are now fitted and look very inviting, but the one I tested was rather firm. The seatbelts are still fitted.

That was Nigel Eggleton? Guess we can't comment on what someone has posted on another forum about what had been said. Perhaps the wording is a clue in that there is a corporate livery (controlled centrally) but that they (the local team) felt that red didn't go well with it?

However, we just have to look at what is happening at First WoE with James Freeman. The first Streetdecks had the corporate fuchsia front (as per the FMR ones), the second batch had red fronts, matching the colours used on First's Bristol bus map for those routes. Another two vehicles (older Geminis) are trialling a blue front and an orange front (unveiled just yesterday) again for particular routes. That's before we mention the relaunched Unibus services in Bath with an all purple livery...

Also, the Potteries also had a Best Impressions microsite and the timetables/maps also to a BI template rather than corporate.

People are very keen to talk about these central instructions from Aberdeen but in many ways, you are seeing local managers innovating and working locally. Of course, they do it in different ways and that depends on the individuals teams, the strength of their territories, and factors like PTEs and local authorities.

ps fully agree with your post ref: the original plan and how the plan to reduce the debt pile has stalled as the train business has contracted. Interesting to see if divesting something like Greyhound becomes a necessity?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I reckon I'd probably agree with Julian Peddle about the state of the big five bus companies.

Go Ahead seem determined to centralise, which is going to destroy all that has been good about them in the last decade. But they're not even centralising in a coherent way; certainly up here their branding is in a proper muddle these days. I don't think it is going to end well.

I think JP thinks that a) First are doing many good things operationally but b) thinks they still have too many low margin operations such as Cornwall and Somerset!!

As for Go Ahead, the real issues in margin expectation/centralisation seem most apparent in their East Anglian operations where service cuts and rationalisation seem at their greatest.

In the North East, the image thing is more a reflection on Kevin Carr in that he is a dyed in the wool Northern General man? Whilst Peter Huntley believed that every service should be a brand in itself, Kevin Carr perhaps believes that brands should be focussed on a select number of routes and hence the return of the Northern brand to certain routes?

 

[Robertj21a]

.
I reckon the Worcester and Leicester fleet livery will be the same - fuchsia fronts on everything.

 

[overthewater]

First Group design, which is still controlled by Group policy

Is that really the case? Since FSE just given in with the livery and are now just repainting everything in two tone blue to match be like the old First Midland Bluebird.

Go Ahead, the real issues in margin expectation/centralisation seem most apparent in their East Anglian operations where service cuts and rationalisation seem at their greatest.

It kinda makes, since there alot of company's in the area and there could benefit from have a single identity in East Anglia?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The Potteries ought indeed to be good operating territory.

It has issues with is polycentric conurbation (lots of town centres and no real city centre), which makes a traditional radial bus route network difficult to provide. The recent (July 2014) network review ignored this fact and removed many of the key inter-town links.

The lack of support from the local authorities (Stoke-on-Trent City Council and Staffordshire County Council) does not help, for example a pitifully low remuneration rate for ENCTS and minimal supported services. First try to provide an evening service, that obviously comes off the bottom line.

Competition will not have helped either, siphoning off profit for no real passenger benefit - Bakers, D & G, Wardle, all mainly duplicated existing routes and only during the daytime. Wow, D & G have started an evening service on their 'Nines' route. Oh look it is five minutes ahead of First's service 7A. So, two buses in five minutes then nothing for the next fifty-five. Clearly D & G are out to damage First rather than meet any perceived customer need.

One thing is not to treat your passengers / customers like dirt for over a decade. Strangely enough they do eventually decide to walk away (literally and figuratively). When they are gone, they are gone.

My bus commute used to involve a route running every 20 minutes and requiring 4 vehicles. VERY often, having finished work and stood at the bus stop for forty minutes, three of the four buses would arrive within five minutes of each other. No intervention was ever made to deal with the issue. Go figure why passenger numbers declined.

Much more recently, the (now withdrawn) service 43 required two buses off-peak. One morning my friend saw the 2 buses running close together, effectively a bus every 40 minutes rather than every 20. In the afternoon, the buses were still running a couple of minutes apart. Just what level of management skill is required to hold back one of those buses and get it back on schedule? OK, you lose some mileage i.e. one round trip.

I can find few (if any) people in the area who have a good word to say for First. Hence the oft quoted phrase 'if only Stagecoach would move in. Be careful what you wish for is my response.

Regarding Arriva / Wardle / Stevensons recent departure. I hear two stories. One that the operation was losing money, secondly that Arriva were only interested in the white bus fleet (patient transport and the like) and having failed to gain enough work decided to get out. The Arriva period was a strange one. A very unstable network - competitive services introduced and cancelled shortly afterwards.

 

[the101]

One thing is not to treat your passengers / customers like dirt for over a decade. Strangely enough they do eventually decide to walk away (literally and figuratively). When they are gone, they are gone.

This is the biggest problem in the Potteries. First's operation there has been so abjectly badly managed for so long that it has passed the point of no return in its current guise. The name First is immediately associated with dreadful service, and by and large the only people who use Potteries' services are those who have no alternative. Everyone who did have an alternative is long gone, and really who can blame them? Driver discipline has also long been a problem, and there remains a core who clearly do as they please without fear of repercussion. This further contributes to awful service quality.

Regarding Arriva / Wardle / Stevensons recent departure. I hear two stories. One that the operation was losing money, secondly that Arriva were only interested in the white bus fleet (patient transport and the like) and having failed to gain enough work decided to get out. The Arriva period was a strange one. A very unstable network - competitive services introduced and cancelled shortly afterwards.

It was losing £9k per week and, like First, abjectly poorly managed and overseen. Drivers were still wearing jeans and T-shirts a couple of years after Arriva took over and early running/missing bits of route out/dropping journeys was endemic. Bizarre attempts to either begin routes which either had no obvious market or to compete with First on 'thin' corridors at lower frequencies and with reduced operating hours were also destined to end up in nothing but failure, which is exactly what happened.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is the biggest problem in the Potteries. First's operation there has been so abjectly badly managed for so long that it has passed the point of no return in its current guise. The name First is immediately associated with dreadful service, and by and large the only people who use Potteries' services are those who have no alternative. Everyone who did have an alternative is long gone, and really who can blame them? Driver discipline has also long been a problem, and there remains a core who clearly do as they please without fear of repercussion. This further contributes to awful service quality.



.

The general appearance of the Potteries fleet has, until quite recently, also been utterly appalling, further confirming what many passengers must have thought about the level of care and attention given to their buses.

 

[winston270twm]

That was Nigel Eggleton? Guess we can't comment on what someone has posted on another forum about what had been said. Perhaps the wording is a clue in that there is a corporate livery (controlled centrally) but that they (the local team) felt that red didn't go well with it?

However, we just have to look at what is happening at First WoE with James Freeman. The first Streetdecks had the corporate fuchsia front (as per the FMR ones), the second batch had red fronts, matching the colours used on First's Bristol bus map for those routes. Another two vehicles (older Geminis) are trialling a blue front and an orange front (unveiled just yesterday) again for particular routes. That's before we mention the relaunched Unibus services in Bath with an all purple livery...

Also, the Potteries also had a Best Impressions microsite and the timetables/maps also to a BI template rather than corporate.

People are very keen to talk about these central instructions from Aberdeen but in many ways, you are seeing local managers innovating and working locally. Of course, they do it in different ways and that depends on the individuals teams, the strength of their territories, and factors like PTEs and local authorities.

ps fully agree with your post ref: the original plan and how the plan to reduce the debt pile has stalled as the train business has contracted. Interesting to see if divesting something like Greyhound becomes a necessity?--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think JP thinks that a) First are doing many good things operationally but b) thinks they still have too many low margin operations such as Cornwall and Somerset!!

As for Go Ahead, the real issues in margin expectation/centralisation seem most apparent in their East Anglian operations where service cuts and rationalisation seem at their greatest.

In the North East, the image thing is more a reflection on Kevin Carr in that he is a dyed in the wool Northern General man? Whilst Peter Huntley believed that every service should be a brand in itself, Kevin Carr perhaps believes that brands should be focussed on a select number of routes and hence the return of the Northern brand to certain routes?

Yes from Nigel Eggleton.

Some UK bus MD's appear to have more local influence than others. Even James Freeman has had to come down in the world as a First MD, instead of getting everything brand new whilst at Reading Buses he's had to accept 51 plate ex Leicester B7TL/ALX400's & ex East Anglia B7L/Wright. The allover purple Uni fleet are W-reg B7TL's (15+ years old) age hidden by private plates.

I personally think First should have just bit the bullet & sold Greyhound back when they needed to raise the original £100 Million to pay down debt, they could have kept London which was a good source of mid life vehicles for poorer performing ops to cascade in, getting UK bus & Student back on tract would of had more effect of group profits than sacrificing Greyhound would of had longer term. Instead the route they've gone down has allowed Stagecoach to take pole position and First are still struggling in some areas & considering further depot closures & possible sales.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is the point. Some moves are consolidation

I guess perception has a lot to do with it. I don't regularly travel much where First operate, other than West Yorkshire (which is definite consolidation territory) but my perception is that the firesale that started a few years ago is still going strong.

That perception may well be unfair, but it feels like a death by a thousand cuts.

I think JP thinks that a) First are doing many good things operationally but b) thinks they still have too many low margin operations such as Cornwall and Somerset!!

I guess it is finding the balance. If all your work is low margin then you're vulnerable, especially given the government don't have the cajones to bin ENCTS but have absolutely no intention of actually paying for it. That's only going to get worse in Cornwall and Somerset, both full of twirly towns.

I also think losing the London operations is going to make the situation in the low margin operations worse, as there's no longer the regular supply of mid-life buses that have done the bulk of their depreciation already.

I'd also say Plymouth became a basket case because of rank bad management rather than anything else. Again, Plymouth should be prime bus territory.

In the North East, the image thing is more a reflection on Kevin Carr in that he is a dyed in the wool Northern General man? Whilst Peter Huntley believed that every service should be a brand in itself, Kevin Carr perhaps believes that brands should be focussed on a select number of routes and hence the return of the Northern brand to certain routes?

It's not quite as simple as de-branding certain routes. That would be no bad thing, I think the sheer number of brands was getting ridiculous to the extent that it didn't appear like a coherent network anymore.

The problem is that there seems no coherence as to what they brand and why; they're taking branding off routes that have carried it for years and then recycling the exact same branding on to a completely different route that goes somewhere entirely different. Not to mention the fact they've turned their most recent "generic" livery into a specific route brand...

 

[oldman]

I'd also say Plymouth became a basket case because of rank bad management rather than anything else. Again, Plymouth should be prime bus territory.

It reminds me of the Edinburgh situation of years ago. Out of town operator tries to build a presence in coastal city with limited urban hinterland controlled by council operator. Problem is that if you weaken the city company, the council may sell (as in Plymouth), but not to you! You end up competing with another national company.

Arguably the bad management was being slow to cut their losses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I guess perception has a lot to do with it. I don't regularly travel much where First operate, other than West Yorkshire (which is definite consolidation territory) but my perception is that the firesale that started a few years ago is still going strong.

That perception may well be unfair, but it feels like a death by a thousand cuts.



I guess it is finding the balance. If all your work is low margin then you're vulnerable, especially given the government don't have the cajones to bin ENCTS but have absolutely no intention of actually paying for it. That's only going to get worse in Cornwall and Somerset, both full of twirly towns.

I also think losing the London operations is going to make the situation in the low margin operations worse, as there's no longer the regular supply of mid-life buses that have done the bulk of their depreciation already.

I'd also say Plymouth became a basket case because of rank bad management rather than anything else. Again, Plymouth should be prime bus territory.



It's not quite as simple as de-branding certain routes. That would be no bad thing, I think the sheer number of brands was getting ridiculous to the extent that it didn't appear like a coherent network anymore.

The problem is that there seems no coherence as to what they brand and why; they're taking branding off routes that have carried it for years and then recycling the exact same branding on to a completely different route that goes somewhere entirely different. Not to mention the fact they've turned their most recent "generic" livery into a specific route brand...

The London cascade argument is a bit misleading... it can mean that you don't invest in the provinces and so they have to survive on hand me downs that have been worked very hard and have various TfL specs that then need to be undone. I think that's why Stagecoach have moved to leasing for London. London actually tied up a lot of capital for First whilst the returns weren't great and not where they need to be to lift them out of their malaise.

Plymouth is one of those places that people think should be great bus territory. In truth, the city isn't really big enough for two operators competing (as has been proven 3 times). If First hadn't steamed in with Ugobus (another Moir move) then they may have been able to still have a modest Plymouth operation....

 

[Tetchytyke]

I thought the leasing in London was a Macquarie Bank thing that Stagecoach just stuck with?

Plymouth is strange; smaller cities than Plymouth manage to support two bus companies, so long as they're sensible and don't try and blow each other out of the water. As you say, Ugobus was the issue.

I'd agree that ex-London buses cause their own problems (I'm still laughing at Arriva Northumbria dressing up 51-plate ex-London B7s as their "innovative" MAX) but capital investment in the marginal depots is only going to make the margin worse.

 

[mbonwick]

When Stagecoach bought ELBG back out of administration, they announced that in future they would only be leasing new vehicles (mostly directly via ADL) in order to lessen the impact of London on the provicial fleets.
They noted that while this would slightly increase the vehicle costs for London, it would more than be offset by the provinces not having ex-London cascades forced upon them.

Most of the Macquarie finance is still ongoing, though select batches of vehicles (presumably those judged to be in the best condition/most suitable for cascading) have been bought outright. The general trend is for vehicles to be returned or scrapped however.