First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[Volvodart]

That said, I can't remember if Wright offer a Streetlite at around 11.8 meters with a more powerful engine? If so then that would provide more fleet commonality for First with the rest of West Lothian.

Wrightbus have the GB Hawk which is 12m I think:-

https://wrightbus.com/en-gb/diesel-bus-gbhawk-eu6diesel

 

[scosutsut]

The long wheelbase 11.8 meter E200MMCs are more like a full-size bus in terms of seating and length, and less like a midibus. That said with only a 4-speed gearbox they are horrible at high speed as the engine needs to rev so high.
If operators bought the 6-cylinder (6.7 litre) full-length E200MMC with a six-speed gearbox I'd imagine it would be very similar to, for example, a B8RLE Eclipse 3, and would likely be ideal for routes like the X38.

That said, I can't remember if Wright offer a Streetlite at around 11.8 meters with a more powerful engine? If so then that would provide more fleet commonality for First with the rest of West Lothian.

Edit: The E200MMC brochure can be found here for anyone interested:

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/83813/enviro200-spec.pdf

Yeah what I mean is it's still at a Dart, at its heart in terms of how it's designed and put together, whether you lengthen it, change the body, fill it with leather, usb, bike racks etc and that engine / gearbox combo is not nice at speed. I mean it sits at 62mph competently enough but the soundtrack is that of a washing machine in the middle of the spin cycle!

 

[Jordan Adam]

The long wheelbase 11.8 meter E200MMCs are more like a full-size bus in terms of seating and length, and less like a midibus. That said with only a 4-speed gearbox they are horrible at high speed as the engine needs to rev so high.
If operators bought the 6-cylinder (6.7 litre) full-length E200MMC with a six-speed gearbox I'd imagine it would be very similar to, for example, a B8RLE Eclipse 3, and would likely be ideal for routes like the X38.

Even with a 6-cylinder engine the E200MMC is still unsuitable for those sorts of routes. It may have a bigger engine but it still ultimately suffers from the fact that it's not a full size single decker, it's a stretched lightweight midibus, you really notice it once one gets up to speed as they thud in to every bump and are not refined at all. Even on a relatively short 15-20 minute journey on one at speed you quickly end up with a sore back. A route like the 38 (and much of the West Lothian network) really do just need something with a better more robust heavy weight chassis.

That said, I can't remember if Wright offer a Streetlite at around 11.8 meters with a more powerful engine? If so then that would provide more fleet commonality for First with the rest of West Lothian.

The Streetlite-Max was originally offered with the 6-cyl Cummins ISB but none were ever built. The closest you'll get to that now is the Wright GB Hawk which is offered with both 4cyl and 6cyl Daimler engines, the latter being the same as that used in Citaros. Wright have been marketing the Hawk as the successor to the Volvo BxRLE/Eclipse.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

With regards to FSE/Larbert, this was the only depot I ever drove Streetlights at, honestly I don’t think there quite as bad as everybody I spoke to before this made them out to be.

I don’t mind having a 4-Cylinder bus, I prefer the Daimler OM934 engined ones as they seems to be able to access there low end just that little better as well as spreading out the power build more evenly, albeit I actually found those to make more racket when sat idle at bus stops compared with the Cummins ISB 4-Cyl, I generally find Cummins ISB engines to seem very peaky with there power, particularly the 4.5 engine, but I’m also led to believe that the Daimler 5.1ltr engine within its 210/231hp variants to have 2 sequential turbos.

Both would have decent power if there Acceleration Control was turned up a little more, regardless of how many gears there is.

With 4-Cyl units they have a narrower torque curve than larger 6-Cyl units, usually but also less torque in general, there engines suit the ZF 6Speeder better, the ZF box has more closely spaced ratios and generally should be able to keep you nearer or within that narrow torque curve more easily.

I don’t see any reason why ADL can’t offer the 4.5/210hp engine with a 6-Speed ZF.

It’s been done before with a 4-Cyl.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2022 ==

Even with a 6-cylinder engine the E200MMC is still unsuitable for those sorts of routes. It may have a bigger engine but it still ultimately suffers from the fact that it's not a full size single decker, it's a stretched lightweight midibus, you really notice it once one gets up to speed as they thud in to every bump and are not refined at all. Even on a relatively short 15-20 minute journey on one at speed you quickly end up with a sore back. A route like the 38 (and much of the West Lothian network) really do just need something with a better more robust heavy weight chassis.

The Streetlite-Max was originally offered with the 6-cyl Cummins ISB but none were ever built. The closest you'll get to that now is the Wright GB Hawk which is offered with both 4cyl and 6cyl Daimler engines, the latter being the same as that used in Citaros. Wright have been marketing the Hawk as the successor to the Volvo BxRLE/Eclipse.

I would certainly like to compare the GB Kite powered by a OM936, against a Mercedes Citaro.

As you’ve previously mentioned there isn’t a particularly good track record with fleet standardisation, particularly at Larbert, it’s seemed for a while that it was the, pardon me, but the scrap yard for First vehicles.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I don’t see any reason why ADL can’t offer the 4.5/210hp engine with a 6-Speed ZF.

ZF Ecomat/Ecolife boxes won't fit in the chassis, it's the same reason the "Classic" Dart and the Enviro200 were never offered with a ZF box. I have been on a King Long XMQ6900J with the 4cyl Cummins ISB and a ZF Ecomat box before and it was surprisingly refined.

I would certainly like to compare the GB Kite powered by a OM936, against a Mercedes Citaro.

As you’ve previously mentioned there isn’t a particularly good track record with fleet standardisation, particularly at Larbert, it’s seemed for a while that it was the, pardon me, but the scrap yard for First vehicles.

There are a small number of Streetdecks with the OM936 engine now and they seem impressive machines, a few drivers have even said they're the most refined buses they've ever driven, the only complaint seems to be that it goes in to 4th gear too early but that's a common thing with Voith gearboxes these days.

In fairness Larbert did get a large number of new buses in 2014/15 but that was mostly so they could get rid of non-PSVAR vehicles. FSE has always been somewhat of a dumping ground but that's to be expected to some extent, no sane operator is going to focus investment in an area where there's limited growth potential, however First could do better. Replacing the worn L94UBs with equally worn B7RLEs that are only a few years newer doesn't seem all that logical, but it's been a common thing across FirstBus in recent years to replace end of life vehicles with vehicles that are only a few years younger only to have to repeat the process again in 2-3 years. The same has happened in Aberdeen where they replaced the 05 plate B7LAs last year with 58 plate Citaros which are in much poorer condition internally and have proven to be a nightmare to keep on the road with only half on the road at any one time at best, whereas the B7LAs were still tidy inside thanks to a refurbishment in late 2015 and were significantly more reliable.

 

[Observer]

As you’ve previously mentioned there isn’t a particularly good track record with fleet standardisation, particularly at Larbert, it’s seemed for a while that it was the, pardon me, but the scrap yard for First vehicles.

I mean they did used to have a rather visible scrap line at the entrance to it years ago. Not the case these days, maybe a few withdrawn vehicles but not that bad as it used to be.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In fairness Larbert did get a large number of new buses in 2014/15 but that was mostly so they could get rid of non-PSVAR vehicles. FSE has always been somewhat of a dumping ground but that's to be expected to some extent, no sane operator is going to focus investment in an area where there's limited growth potential, however First could do better. Replacing the worn L94UBs with equally worn B7RLEs that are only a few years newer doesn't seem all that logical, but it's been a common thing across FirstBus in recent years to replace end of life vehicles with vehicles that are only a few years younger only to have to repeat the process again in 2-3 years. The same has happened in Aberdeen where they replaced the 05 plate B7LAs last year with 58 plate Citaros which are in much poorer condition internally and have proven to be a nightmare to keep on the road with only half on the road at any one time at best, whereas the B7LAs were still tidy inside thanks to a refurbishment in late 2015 and were significantly more reliable.

I guess they were left with a number of Merc artics in York with a boatload of depreciation on them that needed to be addressed.

Apparently, there is a concerted effort to remove Scania L94s (and some other types too) in order to assist standardisation so, whilst it does seem perverse to ship in some tired Eclipses, it does have some logic behind it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Does anybody know what other types they are making a concerted effort to remove for good? Obviously the Scania make sense as the youngest of them is 20 years old now

 

[Jordan Adam]

Apparently, there is a concerted effort to remove Scania L94s (and some other types too) in order to assist standardisation so, whilst it does seem perverse to ship in some tired Eclipses, it does have some logic behind it.

I get that, but my point just was that i don't see the logic in replacing end of life vehicles with vehicles that are only 1-2 years newer. If the B7RLEs had been given a refurb in the recent past, were in significantly better condition or met a better Euro emission target then it would maybe more more sense but they haven't, aren't and don't.

Does anybody know what other types they are making a concerted effort to remove for good? Obviously the Scania make sense as the youngest of them is 20 years old now

Probably just the Scanias, while the B7TLs are just as old they're a common type for First and haven't had the same corrosion issues that have plagued the Omnidekkas over the years.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

I get that, but my point just was that i don't see the logic in replacing end of life vehicles with vehicles that are only 1-2 years newer. If the B7RLEs had been given a refurb in the recent past, were in significantly better condition or met a better Euro emission target then it would maybe more more sense but they haven't, aren't and don't.

Probably just the Scanias, while the B7TLs are just as old they're a common type for First and haven't had the same corrosion issues that have plagued the Omnidekkas over the years.

The disposal of the Scanias is supposedly due to difficulties in obtaining spare parts for them. By replacing them with vehicles only 1/2 years newer they can probably keep them running, for longer, by having spare parts available to source.

 

[stevenedin]

So does this mean that the Omnidekkas are going for scrap?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I get that, but my point just was that i don't see the logic in replacing end of life vehicles with vehicles that are only 1-2 years newer. If the B7RLEs had been given a refurb in the recent past, were in significantly better condition or met a better Euro emission target then it would maybe more more sense but they haven't, aren't and don't.

The disposal of the Scanias is supposedly due to difficulties in obtaining spare parts for them. By replacing them with vehicles only 1/2 years newer they can probably keep them running, for longer, by having spare parts available to source.

The logic isn't in terms of vehicle age but simply in terms of standardisation and the availability of parts as @Dfatcontroller says.

Does anybody know what other types they are making a concerted effort to remove for good? Obviously the Scania make sense as the youngest of them is 20 years old now

Well, aside from some high capacity examples that are moving from Hampshire to First South West, First is keen to get rid of the Tridents. Scanias, both Solars, and Omnicities, are being wiped out rather quickly. Also, the humble Dart is now becoming something of a rarity but for a lightweight single deck, 15/16 years is quite an age for the newest.

They are, of course, all vehicles that are getting on a bit but there's more of a wish to keep 2004 B7TLs than similar-aged Tridents.

 

[stevenedin]

Nice to see 33446 getting a repaint https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/51905590238

 

[LiviCrazy]

Nice to see 33446 getting a repaint https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/51905590238

Was just about say I’d seen one of them in the new colours. Looks very nice in that livery.

Also saw the Optare Solo on the X25 on Wednesday. First time I’d seen it out. Unusual to see that it had white LED destination/number boards rather than First’s usual Orange ones.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Was just about say I’d seen one of them in the new colours. Looks very nice in that livery.

Also saw the Optare Solo on the X25 on Wednesday. First time I’d seen it out. Unusual to see that it had white LED destination/number boards rather than First’s usual Orange ones.

all of firsts new stock since about 2017 have had white LED screens

 

[stevenedin]

Was just about say I’d seen one of them in the new colours. Looks very nice in that livery.

Also saw the Optare Solo on the X25 on Wednesday. First time I’d seen it out. Unusual to see that it had white LED destination/number boards rather than First’s usual Orange ones.

One of those Optare Solos were on the X24 too in January https://www.flickr.com/photos/steveneh8/51851707758/in/dateposted/

 

[Baileygirl]

Nice to see 33446 getting a repaint https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/51905590238

This bus was painted not long ago into the 600 airport livery. Does this signal the end of First going to the Airport?

 

[stevenedin]

To be honest it may signal the end of these buses in West Lothian. There may be plans in the not too distant future to move them to Midland but that’s only a guess. At least if they have the correct livery it will help if that does happen.

 

[ScotRail158725]

To be honest it may signal the end of these buses in West Lothian.

How have you concluded that? And FYI, no they’re not moving

 

[stevenedin]

It was just a guess with the way things have been going but hopefully not as it’s good to still have some double deckers in West Lothian.

 

[Baileygirl]

It was just a guess with the way things have been going but hopefully not as it’s good to still have some double deckers in West Lothian.i

It could be that they are getting these buses ready for the clean air zone coming into effect in Edinburgh in May. The E400s and six Streetlights are the only Euro6 buses in Livingston. Two of the Streetlights have been in the garage for several years getting engine rebuilds. I notice the E400s being used on the X24 a lot.
I don't know what engines are in the Bright Bus Tours buses.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It could be that they are getting these buses ready for the clean air zone coming into effect in Edinburgh in May. The E400s and six Streetlights are the only Euro6 buses in Livingston. Two of the Streetlights have been in the garage for several years getting engine rebuilds. I notice the E400s being used on the X24 a lot.
I don't know what engines are in the Bright Bus Tours buses.

I wonder what First’s plan are as May doesn’t give them much scope.

 

[Volvodart]

Like Aberdeen, there is a 2 year grace period, so the full low emissions zone does not come in until mid 2024. First Scotland East have 28 buses with exhaust emission upgrades funding from the Scottish Government.

 

[overthewater]

This still doesn't help X38, I doubt that money will be spent on 15 year old stock. So is there plenty to get newer stock in for the X38, with the money being spent on them?

 

[Volvodart]

Aberdeen's 15 year old stock have been converted.

 

[overthewater]

Aberdeen's 15 year old stock have been converted.

X38 is going to end up with I dare say 20 year old stock running up and down on a flagship route? I could deal with that if the FSE interiors were given a bit of TLC, but there in bad shape.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

FSE have already seen some E400MMCs transfer over from Glasgow and with Glasgow receiving a lot of new electric stock - I think there will be more modern buses to come. With a lot of new singles and deckers I wouldn’t be surprised if FSE saw some more modern Euro 6 E300s or Streetlites transfer over to upgrade routes like the X38.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I wouldn’t be surprised if FSE saw some more modern Euro 6 E300s or Streetlites transfer over to upgrade routes like the X38.

I could complain all day about the Stagecoach E300s, but the ones in First spec actually seem quite good.
I would say the same about the E200MMCs actually, although I've only been on First spec ones in the city in Glasgow. Do the First ones all have the 4-speed gearbox and the lower powered engine, à la Stagecoach?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I could complain all day about the Stagecoach E300s, but the ones in First spec actually seem quite good.
I would say the same about the E200MMCs actually, although I've only been on First spec ones in the city in Glasgow. Do the First ones all have the 4-speed gearbox and the lower powered engine, à la Stagecoach?

First E200MMCs have the smaller 4 cylinder engine whereas Stagecoach's are 6 cylinder. Legroom is quite a bit better on First's however as there's 4 less seats compared to a Stagecoach example of the same wheelbase length.

I agree about the E300s, the specification of First's is significantly better with the bonded glazing and 6 speed ZF Ecolife Gearboxes, although most are in dire need of a refurb now. They don't at all feel like they're being pushed when doing "motorway" speeds unlike the 4 speed Voith examples.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I agree about the E300s, the specification of First's is significantly better with the bonded glazing and 6 speed ZF Ecolife Gearboxes, although most are in dire need of a refurb now. They don't at all feel like they're being pushed when doing "motorway" speeds unlike the 4 speed Voith examples.

First’s Enviro 300s are good buses, on country roads, dual carriageways and motorways they handle them with ease