First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Midland Bluebird

Scotland's Largest Independent Bus Company

www.firstbus.co.uk

Yup, Lothian be moving in permenantly and First be moving out…eventually.

It’s already a skeletal service, few edinburghs running, no wonder the competition is picking up significant loads during peak times.

 

[PaulMc7]

Yup, Lothian be moving in permenantly and First be moving out…eventually.

It’s already a skeletal service, few edinburghs running, no wonder the competition is picking up significant loads during peak times.

A skeletal service is all they need to still drain Lothian to be fair. Both times I was in Livingston the queues for the 26 especially were a lot longer than any for Lothian buses. First will be fine especially if the cancellations are far less now

 

[CN04NRJ]

A skeletal service is all they need to still drain Lothian to be fair. Both times I was in Livingston the queues for the 26 especially were a lot longer than any for Lothian buses. First will be fine especially if the cancellations are far less now

I don't see how "First are fine" when they couldn't even run a Sunday service and are now reduced to this. Their competition has no trouble recruiting and passenger numbers are good.

Why are people spinning these cuts and woeful condemnations of what it's like to work at Livingston as some kind of win for them?

How many times will commentors say "With these cuts they'll be able to operate most of their registered services" (or words to that effect), "The cost savings will be a boon" etc etc until there's nothing left to cut?

Bright Bus is about the only thing going for that depot, their loadings are good but it seems to have grown the market rather than detract from their competition as both operators buses are full this week.

 

[PaulMc7]

I don't see how "First are fine" when they couldn't even run a Sunday service and are now reduced to this. Their competition has no trouble recruiting and passenger numbers are good.

Why are people spinning these cuts and woeful condemnations of what it's like to work at Livingston as some kind of win for them?

How many times will commentors say "With these cuts they'll be able to operate most of their registered services" (or words to that effect), "The cost savings will be a boon" etc etc until there's nothing left to cut?

Bright Bus is about the only thing going for that depot, their loadings are good but it seems to have grown the market rather than detract from their competition as both operators buses are full this week.

As long as they break even on what runs they are fine as any operator in any area would be. The pressure is more on Lothian to push First out than vice versa IMO

 

[stevenedin]

To be honest both have made cut backs recently. I think that they can exist alongside each other. The only thing is that First are less reliable but hopefully these changes will improve things.

 

[overthewater]

To be honest both have made cut backs recently. I think that they can exist alongside each other. The only thing is that First are less reliable but hopefully these changes will improve things.

This is the only Sensible reply, and thankfully we still have some balance views around here.

 

[PaulMc7]

This is the only Sensible reply, and thankfully we still have some balance views around here.

To be fair I will always be balanced with West Lothian as I've literally never used First or Lothian Country in the area. Between Edinburgh Zoo and Princes Street in Edinburgh is my only use of any First services not in Stirling or Falkirk either under the South and Central Scotland area

 

[Siemens Trains]

This is the only Sensible reply, and thankfully we still have some balance views around here.

Yes, that's probably true. But quite a change from a few years ago when the idea of living alongside each other was met with ridicule.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

When you drive a bus 5, sometimes 6 days a week, 45-55hrs every week, the Visuals are not the same as someone who “occasionally” sees one x25 or x22 that looks relatively busy.

Through the entire West Lothian area Lothian Country certainly be picking more up across the operating day than First.

You add in the monumental shift that First has made to pull the in & out of Edinburgh routes and you realise first are far from “fine”.

At this point the only thing keeping the company afloat is Brightbus and possibly Larburt, certainly not Bannockburn or Balfron.

This entirely lays with First of course on what they do, from the perspective of a driver there are extra things which they need to do and can do in order to retain drivers not simply recruit them, atm the company are failing to realise that or come up with the answer, they have not been forth coming to there employees with credible information on how they intend to rectify these issues either, a big no no when ultimately if you don’t pacify your employs either positive information you won’t win.

Get this, last week at Livingston depot there was a masse director meeting, they all came up from carmure house, I assume to review the depots performance or to provide info on what they think should be done.

My problem with this was not the actual meetings obviously, but that they had a platter of sandwiches and cakes offered to them, which was brought in for them, my thought process on this was, if only they showed as much enthusiasm towards there “front line” they may not be in so much of a pickle.

Just a thought but these problems go far deeper than simply wages aren’t right or that COVID & Brexit are the defining problem, they are not, if they were, many of the First Livingston drivers would not have migrated to LC.

 

[GusB]

With all due respect when you drive a bus 5, sometimes 6 days a week, 45-55hrs every week, the Visuals are not the same as someone who “occasionally” sees one x25 or x22 that looks relatively busy

With all due respect, a driver can only drive one bus at a time, regardless of how many hours they work. Unless you're capable of simultaneously driving all services at all times, your own "visuals" are limited to what you can actually see.

This "you're not a driver, so you don't really know what you're talking about" attitude is rather condescending, to be honest.

 

[mb88]

To be brutally honest, both operators are failing in West Lothian. First have spent months and months trying to operate to a schedule that they cannot realistically hope to keep to given their current staffing levels and issues with recruitment and retention. Now that they are finally acting upon this and brining in a schedule which will (hopefully) at least bring some semblance of a reliable service, albeit at the price of reduced frequencies.

Now would have been the prime moment for Lothian Country to consolidate their existing services and put the nail in First’s coffin once and for all. Instead, they are making cuts. Morale amongst the staff at LC is the lowest I have seen it. In my 3.5 years there I have lost count of the number of service changes that have been introduced. I get that with a new set up there is an element of trial and error involved, and that of course COVID has forced their hand in some instances, but in order to grow your customer base a level of consistency is required.

People are less likely to show loyalty to an operator when they don’t know from one month to the next whether their service is going to see drastic changes. Some of the decisions that have been made are quite frankly baffling. The latest being the withdrawal of the 275 and rerouting of the 276 to make it far slower than services provided by First between Broxburn and Livingston, and a pointless extension to serve only a small part of Wester Inch. Either serve Wester Inch in its entirety or not at all. Send it the way the current 275 goes. Absolutely no benefit whatsoever of it going up to the Kaim Park roundabout and along Edinburgh Road.

The 275 in it’s original form (Edinburgh Park to Whitburn) was a very good service and was busy. But it’s been chopped and changed that much to the point where it has become unviable and ultimately cut. It seems like people who have absolutely zero local knowledge are making these decisions, and it shows. The drivers who work these services day in day out, many of whom live in the area, are being paid lip service to but ultimately ignored. Apologies for the slightly long rant, and also if this is in the wrong thread feel free to move it to the Lothian one. But I thought it was relevant here to maybe make the point that whilst First may be struggling, things aren’t exactly as rosy as some would like us to believe on the other side either.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

To be brutally honest, both operators are failing in West Lothian. First have spent months and months trying to operate to a schedule that they cannot realistically hope to keep to given their current staffing levels and issues with recruitment and retention. Now that they are finally acting upon this and brining in a schedule which will (hopefully) at least bring some semblance of a reliable service, albeit at the price of reduced frequencies. Now would have been the prime moment for Lothian Country to consolidate their existing services and put the nail in First’s coffin once and for all. Instead, they are making cuts. Morale amongst the staff at LC is the lowest I have seen it. In my 3.5 years there I have lost count of the number of service changes that have been introduced. I get that with a new set up there is an element of trial and error involved, and that of course COVID has forced their hand in some instances, but in order to grow your customer base a level of consistency is required. People are less likely to show loyalty to an operator when they don’t know from one month to the next whether their service is going to see drastic changes. Some of the decisions that have been made are quite frankly baffling. The latest being the withdrawal of the 275 and rerouting of the 276 to make it far slower than services provided by First between Broxburn and Livingston, and a pointless extension to serve only a small part of Wester Inch. Either serve Wester Inch in its entirety or not at all. Send it the way the current 275 goes. Absolutely no benefit whatsoever of it going up to the Kaim Park roundabout and along Edinburgh Road. The 275 in it’s original form (Edinburgh Park to Whitburn) was a very good service and was busy. But it’s been chopped and changed that much to the point where it has become unviable and ultimately cut. It seems like people who have absolutely zero local knowledge are making these decisions, and it shows. The drivers who work these services day in day out, many of whom live in the area, are being paid lip service to but ultimately ignored. Apologies for the slightly long rant, and also if this is in the wrong thread feel free to move it to the Lothian one. But I thought it was relevant here to maybe make the point that whilst First may be struggling, things aren’t exactly as rosy as some would like us to believe on the other side either.

Then they are hiding it very well.

 

[CN04NRJ]

With all due respect, a driver can only drive one bus at a time, regardless of how many hours they work. Unless you're capable of simultaneously driving all services at all times, your own "visuals" are limited to what you can actually see.

This "you're not a driver, so you don't really know what you're talking about" attitude is rather condescending, to be honest.

When you live in West Lothian and also spend the majority of your life driving buses, speaking with drivers/ex drivers or managers of First you do have a wider perspective compared to "I was in X place waiting for a bus one afternoon and the queue at one stand was longer than another".

Living in Wester Inch myself I agree wholeheartedly with the points above, fortunately I'm right by the 276 stop and within walking distance of the main road.

 

[stevenedin]

To be brutally honest, both operators are failing in West Lothian. First have spent months and months trying to operate to a schedule that they cannot realistically hope to keep to given their current staffing levels and issues with recruitment and retention. Now that they are finally acting upon this and brining in a schedule which will (hopefully) at least bring some semblance of a reliable service, albeit at the price of reduced frequencies.

Now would have been the prime moment for Lothian Country to consolidate their existing services and put the nail in First’s coffin once and for all. Instead, they are making cuts. Morale amongst the staff at LC is the lowest I have seen it. In my 3.5 years there I have lost count of the number of service changes that have been introduced. I get that with a new set up there is an element of trial and error involved, and that of course COVID has forced their hand in some instances, but in order to grow your customer base a level of consistency is required.

People are less likely to show loyalty to an operator when they don’t know from one month to the next whether their service is going to see drastic changes. Some of the decisions that have been made are quite frankly baffling. The latest being the withdrawal of the 275 and rerouting of the 276 to make it far slower than services provided by First between Broxburn and Livingston, and a pointless extension to serve only a small part of Wester Inch. Either serve Wester Inch in its entirety or not at all. Send it the way the current 275 goes. Absolutely no benefit whatsoever of it going up to the Kaim Park roundabout and along Edinburgh Road.

The 275 in it’s original form (Edinburgh Park to Whitburn) was a very good service and was busy. But it’s been chopped and changed that much to the point where it has become unviable and ultimately cut. It seems like people who have absolutely zero local knowledge are making these decisions, and it shows. The drivers who work these services day in day out, many of whom live in the area, are being paid lip service to but ultimately ignored. Apologies for the slightly long rant, and also if this is in the wrong thread feel free to move it to the Lothian one. But I thought it was relevant here to maybe make the point that whilst First may be struggling, things aren’t exactly as rosy as some would like us to believe on the other side either.

I agree it’s not all fault free on either side. You only have to look at some of Lothian’s changes recently to see that they just don’t care either.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I agree it’s not all fault free on either side. You only have to look at some of Lothian’s changes recently to see that they just don’t care either.

The core of lothians business and priority is the city services, it’s that simple, of course it is and I’m also stipulating that it is Edinburgh City Councils priority as well, particularly now that Richard Hall is out of the picture, here lays the simple and only reasoning that I think LC may pull from West Lothian, to protect there city services.

First however are so sparsely placed across the entire UK I would say that they have even less of a foothold on where there priorities lay apart from there finance sheets looking healthy, yes they do have local ops but then the local “regional directors” only have so much power they can exert over changes that are possible to make positive changes, specifically for drivers.

When you live in West Lothian and also spend the majority of your life driving buses, speaking with drivers/ex drivers or managers of First you do have a wider perspective compared to "I was in X place waiting for a bus one afternoon and the queue at one stand was longer than another".

Living in Wester Inch myself I agree wholeheartedly with the points above, fortunately I'm right by the 276 stop and within walking distance of the main road.

Absolutely.

I’m hard pressed to understand where others get there knowledge of how things are, I keep my views to myself where it may concern trains for example, because I use them very little and don’t work within that section of public transport, therefore I would thinks others would know things I know very little about concerning trains.

I rarely go near the First Aberdeen thread or other south of the border threads for this very reason, I’m on the First Scotland East thread because simply I’ve been able to see things for myself.

Over the last 3 weeks I have been more vigilant than I would otherwise be, simply because I’m aware of the competition between operators in the privatised market or specifically between these too.

I see what I see and what I see is one operator vastly having better reliability than the other including across it’s network and the 43 as part of LC, perhaps LC is not perfect, of course, but if there’s a comparison to be had.

Is the 43 operated from Livingston or still from Longstone?

BACK TO THE MAIN TOPIC
I can only say that from years of experience or at least since 2019 I’ve only worked at Larbert, which is the other & only First Scotland East depot I have worked at and known to continually lose drivers, they are recruiting but not near enough, there not retaining either and it’s because the vast majority of the conditions have not changed and perhaps pessimistically I don’t assume they will ever change.

I’ll repeat these words:
A hand-me-down fleet, toxic management, dilapidated depots etc and so on, this also includes Livingston.

If this does not change nothing will change for First Scotland East.

 

[mb88]

Is the 43 operated from Livingston or still from Longstone?

Livingston. By drivers earning £3 an hour less than the ones who drove the exact same buses on the exact same route when it was previously operated by Central.

 

[PaulMc7]

From experience, it's very easy within most industries to tell what it's like on the inside even without working inside. The bus industry is no different from that. I studied business so I know what to look out for when it comes to management behaviour reflecting on staff etc but even without studying business the average person could pick up on things especially fleet and depot morale etc

Announced on Twitter earlier that there's a recruitment event in Bathgate on Wednesday. It'll be interesting to see if it does anything but here's hoping.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Is the 43 operated from Livingston or still from Longstone?

As pointed out earlier it's Livingston and not Longstone. At introduction it was run from Central until Lothian Country separated from East Coast and established their Livingston depot to serve the West Lothian routes.
First also ran the 43 from Livingston following closure of their Linlithgow depot about 10 years ago. But somewhat predictably they had a few problems with that - recovering from breakdowns, driver changeovers, the vaulted operation and so on proved difficult. Maybe some lack of investment and poor working practices you reference were evident at that time too. It limped along for a few years but clearly wasn't a high priority for First. When Stagecoach registered a competing service from Dunfermline First gave notice to pull out and focus on routes more local to Livingston. But Stagecoach couldn't hack it either and Lothian took up the mantle after Stagecoach walked away. Must have been around 2017. If I remember rightly, the Stagecoach manager from Fife then went to work at First Scotland East.
Whether Lothian Country can sustain this route from Livingston remains to be seen. But from tomorrow loadings are likely to be higher as the parent company makes cuts to the 41. That's an option First and Stagecoach never had, and maybe an ace in the hole for Lothian Country's other routes should the going get tough.

The core of lothians business and priority is the city services, it’s that simple, of course it is and I’m also stipulating that it is Edinburgh City Councils priority as well,

Perhaps a topic for elsewhere but there's little reason for Edinburgh Council's priorities to influence what the company does in West Lothian.

 

[LiviCrazy]

On the subject of the fleet? Wasn’t one of the reasons First swapped out some of its E400 MMCs and their Geminis for older vehicles to lower the value of the fleet. By lowering the value it reduces the amount of depreciation and therefore reduces the loss a wee bit. (As I say, “one of”, I am aware that they had other reasons like less need for Double Deckers and Glasgow needed Euro 6(?) vehicles).

Also, in terms of passenger numbers, purely my observations as a passenger, they seem about even during the day, but peak time Lothian Country are comfortably winning now (I would imagine largely due to their much better reliability for commuters, they also pick up a lot of City passengers, they could benefit from going into Hermiston P&R I think). As I say purely from my observations of travelling and being around West Lothian most days.

 

[ScotRail158725]

On the subject of the fleet? Wasn’t one of the reasons First swapped out some of its E400 MMCs and their Geminis for older vehicles to lower the value of the fleet. By lowering the value it reduces the amount of depreciation and therefore reduces the loss a wee bit. (As I say, “one of”, I am aware that they had other reasons like less need for Double Deckers and Glasgow needed Euro 6(?) vehicles).

They hardly brought in any older vehicles. For their whole B7TL, B9TL and half their Enviro 400MMC fleet which left they brought in about 7 or 8 older buses the vast majority was ex Bristol Streetlites

 

[LiviCrazy]

They hardly brought in any older vehicles. For their whole B7TL, B9TL and half their Enviro 400MMC fleet which left they brought in about 7 or 8 older buses the vast majority was ex Bristol Streetlites

Apologies. I genuinely thought it was more than that. What’s the rough value of a Streetlites compared with what left?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Apologies. I genuinely thought it was more than that. What’s the rough value of a Streetlites compared with what left?

The Streetlites can be upgraded to Euro 6 whereas the B7TL's can only go as far as Euro 4. However, B9TL's can be upgraded to Euro 6 as well and I believe this happened once they were transferred from West Lothian to Glasgow, wither or not this was upon arrival or after a while of being there is beyond what I know.

 

[Baileygirl]

Apologies. I genuinely thought it was more than that. What’s the rough value of a Streetlites compared with what left?

Livingston has had 23 second hand Streetlights and 17 second hand Volvo single deckers lately. No new buses since 2016. Streetlights 63/14/64 plates. Volvos 55/06/09 plates.

 

[Lothianbus703]

Livingston has had 23 second hand Streetlights and 17 second hand Volvo single deckers lately. No new buses since 2016. Streetlights 63/14/64 plates. Volvos 55/06/09 plates.

Volvo's are 54/55/06/56/07/57/09 (might of missed some)

 

[Jordan Adam]

On the subject of the fleet? Wasn’t one of the reasons First swapped out some of its E400 MMCs and their Geminis for older vehicles to lower the value of the fleet. By lowering the value it reduces the amount of depreciation and therefore reduces the loss a wee bit. (As I say, “one of”, I am aware that they had other reasons like less need for Double Deckers and Glasgow needed Euro 6(?) vehicles).

Also, in terms of passenger numbers, purely my observations as a passenger, they seem about even during the day, but peak time Lothian Country are comfortably winning now (I would imagine largely due to their much better reliability for commuters, they also pick up a lot of City passengers, they could benefit from going into Hermiston P&R I think). As I say purely from my observations of travelling and being around West Lothian most days.

Following the frequency increase there wasn't the need for so many deckers in the fleet anymore, so it made logical sense to swap them out for similar age single deck vehicles, it also meant an extra route in Glasgow could be converted to Euro 6 operation. With that said they then put most of the remaining E400MMCs on the 600 which was a mistake imo, they should've kept them unbranded and allowed them to be used across the network where required. They have recently started repainting the E400MMCs out of the 600 livery.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Volvo's are 54/55/06/56/07/57/09 (might of missed some)

The 07 & 57 have been in Livingston for ages and weren’t part of the swap for the Deckers. There is one 54 plate and all the 56 plates have now left the fleet to be trainers.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The Streetlites can be upgraded to Euro 6 whereas the B7TL's can only go as far as Euro 4. However, B9TL's can be upgraded to Euro 6 as well and I believe this happened once they were transferred from West Lothian to Glasgow, wither or not this was upon arrival or after a while of being there is beyond what I know.

I believe all Streetlites were/are Euro 6 from new with both Cummins or Daimler engines?

 

[Graham Alexand]

I believe all Streetlites were/are Euro 6 from new with both Cummins or Daimler engines?

The 63 plates I think were initially Euro 5 but have since been upgraded.

 

[Baileygirl]

I believe all Streetlites were/are Euro 6 from new with both Cummins or Daimler engines?

Only the 65 plates are Euro VI from new, the others are Euro V from new.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Only the 65 plates are Euro VI from new, the others are Euro V from new.

Ah! Thanks, I didn't realise the first production ones had Euro V engines.