First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Geezertronic]

I dont think people realise that DoR is actually a contracted private management company held on retainer and paid to have staff ready to takeover quickly and not 'the state'. Its gets paid £30m a year to just be on standby, before the East Coast collapse they had operated for years without doing anything.

I wouldn't say July 2009 was years. It seems like DoR was created specifically when NatEx failed with the ECML

 

[Oswyntail]

@Phillipe/Oswyntail - why should there be an appeal to a FAILED tender? What, therefore, is the point of a tender exercise if the failed bidders can merely appeal....

In most cases, then I agree there is little to be gained. But if there is a manifest case of procedures not being followed correctly, or similar serious errors of process (eg photos of officials being handed large bags of used notes) there should be a right of appeal. But the potential grounds for appeal need to be closely specified.

 

[Wath Yard]

Lol, thats just the trading company to operate East Coast, DoR has been around a lot longer operating Connex SE in 2003.

So now they weren't sat around for years doing nothing and receiving £30 million/year? I'd love to know where this £30 million/year was going because DIRECTLY OPERATED RAILWAYS LIMITED was only incorporated on 02/07/09.

 

[WatcherZero]

As I said, they were a management company on a £30m per year retainer to keep staff on standby to takeover in the result of a collapse, when Connex SE collapsed they stepped in as South Eastern Trains ltd and managed it for the SRA from 2003-2006 when it was refranchised, 2006-2009 they did nothing just kept the staff on retainer then in 2009 they were activated again as DoR Ltd. These arent a bunch of Dft pencil pushers, these are rail management consultants.

Look back at the railways acts since privitisation, you will find the "operator of last resort" function of the Transport Secretary there, they didnt just spring up overnight when the east coast franchise got in trouble, theyve always been there.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Will all of this have a knock on effect for Stagecoach?

 

[Pen Mill]

He also gains the 'customer service focussed company fighting against government and profit driven company' sympathy vote, which amongst the public is probably substantial.

Really ? Their bid is £1 billion more expensive than the winning bid, what do you suppose that is , profit ?

I'm amazed by the gullible public and labour party who back the ultimate profit driven force because it smiles a lot.
Customer focussed my bottom .

 

[WatcherZero]

Found the name of the management company on retainer

Since privatisation, the operator of last resort, both for England, Wales and Scotland, has been First Class Partnerships (FCP). South of the border, this contract has just been put out to tender and FCP will bid to retain it. In Scotland, where Scottish ministers have their own powers regarding the operator of last resort and it is not part of the DfT tender, the contingency plans remain with FCP, which is reviewed as required.

http://www.firstclasspartnerships.com/operator-of-last-resort.php

Seems in 2011, two years after DoR was formed the Dft basically nationalised the Operator of Last resort function taking over FCP's consultant team and they became DoR employed rather than seconded from FCP.

 

[jimicrowbar]

Richard Branson has lost any bit of respect i ever had for him. He is a fool and there is no fool like an old fool. If i get outbid on ebay i do not demand the product for the price i offered or i will take them to court. He will never get any rail time now as he is picking a fight with the government and no one wins against them. What a fool he is making of himself.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not a good start from First Group, before the contract was even signed its emerged theyve been skimming the advertising contract. A portion of the £7m they pledged to spend advertising the West Coast had been allocated to advertising of the First Group itself and not the rail franchise alone. Labours naturally 'outraged'. The franchise will be cross financing advertising for the rest of the First Group companies (advertising the holding group itself and by extension other rail and bus operations) from the bottom line of the West Coast rail franchise.

 

[cambsy]

On Ch4 news reported that Greening has admitted legal challenge could delay signing, that some u turn.

 

[eastdyke]

Not a good start from First Group, before the contract was even signed its emerged theyve been skimming the advertising contract. A portion of the £7m they pledged to spend advertising the West Coast had been allocated to advertising of the First Group itself and not the rail franchise alone. Labours naturally 'outraged'. The franchise will be cross financing advertising for the rest of the First Group companies (advertising the holding group itself and by extension other rail and bus operations) from the bottom line of the West Coast rail franchise.

£7m doesn't go very far does it. And quite natuarally First will want to point out to those who do not know (and there seems to be a lot of them) that First does operate other substantial and successful transport business.

 

[Stats]

Not a good start from First Group, before the contract was even signed its emerged theyve been skimming the advertising contract. A portion of the £7m they pledged to spend advertising the West Coast had been allocated to advertising of the First Group itself and not the rail franchise alone. Labours naturally 'outraged'. The franchise will be cross financing advertising for the rest of the First Group companies (advertising the holding group itself and by extension other rail and bus operations) from the bottom line of the West Coast rail franchise.

It's good practice to quote your sources: http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/...ol-london-rail-line-slammed-for-ad-spend.html

What Labour (actually a single backbencher) appear to be "outraged" about is that they are spending any money on advertising at all. Non-story.

 

[HH]

It's good practice to quote your sources: http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/...ol-london-rail-line-slammed-for-ad-spend.html

What Labour (actually a single backbencher) appear to be "outraged" about is that they are spending any money on advertising at all. Non-story.

If WZ gets any more discredited he will be forced to join the Virgin bid team...

Note that Virgin have been using their spend to do brand advertising for years...

 

[tbtc]

What Labour (actually a single backbencher) appear to be "outraged" about is that they are spending any money on advertising at all. Non-story.

"I'm certain that this cost will be passed on to the customers at a time when rail fares are already very high..."

Labour MP failing to understand the point of advertising shocker...

So far First have been criticised for spending money repainting trains/stations, they've been criticised for not spending enough on repainting things, they've been criticised for not spending enough on promoting the brand, they've been criticised for spending too much to promote the brand...

 

[HH]

There is something fishy about this.

The bid was decided on PRICE. Virgin haven't claimed that they bid more. Quality, where Virgin scored higher, may be partly subjective. Numbers are not.

The only area where DfT got it wrong, probably because they are about as commercial as most of the people who signed the e-petition, is the level of guarantee they have asked for, and this is what Beardie is challenging them on.

Now I hope he wins on this, despite the cost to the taxpayer, because it will make franchise bidding a proper playing field. The £150m extra First got asked for over VT is a pittance in terms of the extra risk inherent in their bid towards the end of the franchise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So far First have been criticised for spending money repainting trains/stations, they've been criticised for not spending enough on repainting things, they've been criticised for not spending enough on promoting the brand, they've been criticised for spending too much to promote the brand...

You're quite right to highlight the stupidity of those lambasting First. They are guilty at the very most of behaving in a highly commercial manner. If any blame is due in this process it can be laid at firstly the DfT, who have not considered properly what sort of bids their new rules might produce, in particular their failure to demand enough guarantee on risky premiums, and secondly VT, who had every chance to challenge the process 7 months ago and failed to do so.

 

[tbtc]

You're quite right to highlight the stupidity of those lambasting First. They are guilty at the very most of behaving in a highly commercial manner. If any blame is due in this process it can be laid at firstly the DfT, who have not considered properly what sort of bids their new rules might produce, in particular their failure to demand enough guarantee on risky premiums, and secondly VT, who had every chance to challenge the process 7 months ago and failed to do so.

I agree - based on the rules, First have won a fair fight.

You could certainly argue that bids shouldn't be allowed to be heavily backloaded or that the level of risk should reflect the size of the bond, or the rules should be cleared up to stop defaulting etc.

But, as you say, we should have been having these arguments several months ago - the system apparently wasn't "flawed" when Virgin were winning.

 

[jon0844]

Not a good start from First Group, before the contract was even signed its emerged theyve been skimming the advertising contract. A portion of the £7m they pledged to spend advertising the West Coast had been allocated to advertising of the First Group itself and not the rail franchise alone. Labours naturally 'outraged'. The franchise will be cross financing advertising for the rest of the First Group companies (advertising the holding group itself and by extension other rail and bus operations) from the bottom line of the West Coast rail franchise.

I'm outraged too! Shocking!

I can't imagine Virgin EVER advertising anything but one single business.. imagine an ad featuring trains, planes and even the odd balloon thrown in? Quite hard isn't it because it's never happened!

Luckily, it's not something Virgin would ever dream to do either!

Shame on First!

I think we all get it now.

Virgin = big name, nice boss, friendly brand = Good guys.
First = Who, foreign boss, brand associated with buses = Bad guys.
Government = Tory = Clearly corrupt, no doubt took backhanders, just more rich people looking out for other rich people, so much for all in it together.

Thus, we can conclude the following outcome, as voted for by the general public in pubs up and down the UK:

Virgin gets given the franchise and compensation (paid for by First, as they can afford it anyway).
The Tories are booted out of power and Labour come back in to fix things by ramping up spending.
Labour imposes a huge windfall tax on First.
Labour then proposes renationalisation.
Labour then does sod all to renationalise.

 

[WatcherZero]

If WZ gets any more discredited he will be forced to join the Virgin bid team...

Note that Virgin have been using their spend to do brand advertising for years...

Dont you find its always when you say things people dont want to hear they shoot the messenger?

Also not the source for my finding out about the First Group skimming. Like many on here there are details you 'overhear' you can push so far but have to be careful. If I told you who said them they would get in trouble but on the other hand im not so tightly bound by the same confidentiality as its not my employer.

 

[Failed Unit]

Greening also added this morning that First were investing in Stations. A p*** poor £22m, according their PR blurb. That wouldn't buy more than a coat of paint.

Which is more than Virgin have given most of them in the last 15 years They didn't have 7 out of the worse 10 stations in the UK by accident.

I am really surprised stagecoach are happy about this, Virgin maybe are not interested in other franchises in the future but stagecoach are. Surely this must be damaging thier chances of other areas? I will be amazed if this is overturned, as if it is, I suspect that all the other franchise process will need to be re-started as you can't change the rules mid tender. Good news on the East Coast as it will remain in DOR railways for longer.

Many people thought first had overbid on Great Western and they forfilled the contract.

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm outraged too! Shocking!

I can't imagine Virgin EVER advertising anything but one single business.. imagine an ad featuring trains, planes and even the odd balloon thrown in? Quite hard isn't it because it's never happened!

Luckily, it's not something Virgin would ever dream to do either!

Theres a difference between spending money First Group pledged as a franchise commitment to spend £7m directly advertising the service each year and a banking advert produced by Virgin Money which features other Virgin companies.

I will give you a clue, one is a franchise commitment between the Government and a company to perform a service on the public behalf, the other is a wholly private company.....you got it yet? Oh no, First can do no wrong can they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Soi3s98CFA

 

[Failed Unit]

:: stands back and waits for the first person to say that this would give DOR a monopoly over the two main London - Scotland franchises, which would be anti-competative::

But it would be!

I overheard someone at work saying First would have a monopoly of transport in Scotland today. I asked them about east coast and cross country

I wonder if any synergies can be made with the sleeper? Doubtful to be honest as nothing that is used on them is used on the WCML now (unless you include pretendolino)

 

[Class377/5]

Labour MP failing to understand the point of advertising shocker...

So far First have been criticised for spending money repainting trains/stations, they've been criticised for not spending enough on repainting things, they've been criticised for not spending enough on promoting the brand, they've been criticised for spending too much to promote the brand...

Funny thing is First haven't even took over and yet people are attacking them for what are doing!

Give them a chance before saying they will do because until they start you do not know for a fact how First WC are going to be.

 

[jon0844]

Theres a difference between spending money First Group pledged as a franchise commitment to spend £7m directly advertising the service each year and a banking advert produced by Virgin Money which features other Virgin companies.

I will give you a clue, one is a franchise commitment between the Government and a company to perform a service on the public behalf, the other is a wholly private company.....you got it yet? Oh no, First can do no wrong can they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Soi3s98CFA

But who says the advert won't be for West Coast trains? Why can't they tell people who they are, by showing what else they do?

Are you saying the ad shouldn't me mention First at all and simply show people trains? What if they wanted to do joint offers with other First operated routes? Could they do that?

This is pretty desperate here and I'd have considered myself the number one Virgin fan boy on here at one time. You only need to read what I've said about Virgin over the years to know this is the first time I've really slated the company for how it has handled losing.

 

[WatcherZero]

This is pretty desperate here and I'd have considered myself the number one Virgin fan boy on here at one time. You only need to read what I've said about Virgin over the years to know this is the first time I've really slated the company for how it has handled losing.

Yes you are sounding pretty desperate here but its okay I give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you wernt aware. Theres a no cross-advertising clause in the franchises, your not allowed to advertise them together. Its why Dft has also been leaning on the Tocs to withdraw group branding.

 

[eastdyke]

Yes you are sounding pretty desperate here but its okay I give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you wernt aware. Theres a no cross-advertising clause in the franchises, your not allowed to advertise them together. Its why Dft has also been leaning on the Tocs to withdraw group branding.

Well First will not need to do so much (to advertise the brand) the way that RB is going on and they (First) will not even have to live up to their own highest standards!

 

[Zoe]

Theres a no cross-advertising clause in the franchises, your not allowed to advertise them together. Its why Dft has also been leaning on the Tocs to withdraw group branding.

So you couldn't have a single brand then for more than one franchise like Virgin did? The ads just used the name "Virgin Trains" even when Virgin Rail Group legally held two separate franchises.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes you are sounding pretty desperate here but its okay I give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you wernt aware. Theres a no cross-advertising clause in the franchises, your not allowed to advertise them together. Its why Dft has also been leaning on the Tocs to withdraw group branding.

Oh right, how did the cross TOC jointly advertised "Club 55" sneak through the net a couple of years on the bounce? Or is that a different sort of cross-advertising? And how come First are allowed to promote the joint First Bus / First TPE reduced price bus & rail tickets in the Huddersfield area?

 

[Zoe]

Oh right, how did the cross TOC jointly advertised "Club 55" sneak through the net a couple of years on the bounce? Or is that a different sort of cross-advertising? And how come First are allowed to promote the joint First Bus / First TPE reduced price bus & rail tickets in the Huddersfield area?

Depends if it's a new rule that has only just been introduced or not.

 

[tbtc]

But it would be!

I overheard someone at work saying First would have a monopoly of transport in Scotland today. I asked them about east coast and cross country

I wonder if any synergies can be made with the sleeper? Doubtful to be honest as nothing that is used on them is used on the WCML now (unless you include pretendolino)

I can't think of any sleeper synergies, but the WCML franchise would be the best place to advertise the sleeper (in timetables etc), is there a "travel one way on a daytime train and back on a sleeper" ticket available?

Funny thing is First haven't even took over and yet people are attacking them for what are doing!

Give them a chance before saying they will do because until they start you do not know for a fact how First WC are going to be.

If we get to December and find that First are serving cold gruel in First Class then I could understand the complaints.

The fact that it's descended to minutia about whether their adverts are going to only mention the West Coast brand (or show other buses/ trains etc) shows how eager some are to criticise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh right, how did the cross TOC jointly advertised "Club 55" sneak through the net a couple of years on the bounce? Or is that a different sort of cross-advertising? And how come First are allowed to promote the joint First Bus / First TPE reduced price bus & rail tickets in the Huddersfield area?

Maybe Stagecoach are allowed to cross-promote but First aren't?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5606289975/

 

[jon0844]

It descended into farce some time ago. I'm glad I've been in Sweden for the last three weeks and when I return to the UK on Friday it will only be for a couple of days before I'm off to Germany for a bit.

It means I've avoided what I can imagine must be terrible TV reporting with RB on TV at every possible moment to promote his brand.