First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Solent&Wessex]

Totally concur. The Franchise process in general leaves a lot to be desired as well. I think many people's gut feeling is there isn't the checks and balances there, especially in favour of the passenger and tax payer. We need a full independent review.

The franchise process may leave a lot to be desired, BUT all parties entered into the process fully aware of how it works and how decisions are reached. You cannot move the goalposts once the match has finished and a team has one. Assuming the correct process has been followed, and there hasn't been anything yet to show that it hasn't, then there is not much that can be done this time apart from declare the match a no score draw and play the match again to different rules. That will take the best part e 2 years by time the rules have been rewritten and the match replayed. And that, no matter how you do it, will cost everyone, including Branson be taxpayers a heap of money.

 

[junglejames]

Technically they did walk away, the Government offered them the optional extension for good performance and they refused to take it. Now if they had not been offered the extension and the contract naturally ended then you could say they didnt walk away. That extension break point was put there for the Governments benefit not the Tocs and they did agree years in advance what the franchise payments would be for that extension. It was the First who offered them the payments for the extension then refused to take it not vice versa.

FGW are operating until the end of the franchise. These 3yrs are an extra. Not part of the compulsory franchise.
Also, it has been pointed out that the government are more than happy that First declined to take it up. The government would have had to pay more in compensation than they would have received in premiums.

Also, if it was only for the benefit of the government, why were FGW given the option? If it was only for the governments benefit, then First wouldnt have been able to decline. Anyway, it matters not, it was an extra. Yes it was all costed, but it was an extra. First will operate until the agreed end of the franchise.
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I see absolutely no problem with waiting for MPs to have a look at the deal especially when an entire party want that as well as an e-petition. The Virgin-are-being-babies bashers are just as bad as the blind Virgin lovers. This is serious business not just some quick decision and if people think there's a problem and that it might want to be looked at again, on such an important decision as a 13-year franchise agreement, no it is not childish to ask for it to be reviewed.

It hasnt been a quick decision. It was taken seriously.
Also, who in the know wants it to be delayed. The government dont. Nae sayers hardly count because all their excuses are non excuses. I want to keep my fast trains etc etc. Labour dont know what went on so must just be jumping on the bandwagon. Branson hasnt asked for a review. If he does so at the last minute it will just be because he wants to be annoying. If he seriously wanted a review he'd have done so by now. So nobody actually wants a review.
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Is James Morris on Facebook a poster from here?

He's doing sterling work on the "campaign" pages, debunking the myths and basically pointing out the idiocy of the masses.

Good morning sir. Live from the free Wifi on Chiltern! I dont get this on Virgin.
And thanks indeed. Shame it aint getting anywhere. Look through and you will see all the things thrown at me.

 

[01jtiong]

I was wondering because of the large petition signed by many members of the public, once the petition gets into parliament then the debate will commence will the government reconsider over the plans for first to takeover the west coast mainline and change their minds and give it back to virgin

how much of a possibility will this happen

 

[RPM]

I would be very, very surprised if either the petition or Virgin's PR offensive make any difference at all. I think Virgin know that too but they are damned if they are going to bow out without creating as much embarrassment as possible for the Government, and good luck to them I say!

 

[tbtc]

She did point out that Virgin were happy with process, until it became apparent that they weren't actually going to win.

Strange that, eh?

Virgin were very happy with the bidding process when they were winning them. It's a bit like football managers complaining about the "lottery" of penalties or play offs, when their team has won these things before but are now on the receiving end. They don't like it up 'em...

I see absolutely no problem with waiting for MPs to have a look at the deal especially when an entire party want that as well as an e-petition. The Virgin-are-being-babies bashers are just as bad as the blind Virgin lovers. This is serious business not just some quick decision and if people think there's a problem and that it might want to be looked at again, on such an important decision as a 13-year franchise agreement, no it is not childish to ask for it to be reviewed.

Yes, it's a serious business, which is why it's been through the correct Civil Service procedures. It's not just a toss of the coin.

Did MPs debate the previous WCML franchise, which Virgin won? Was that level of scrutiny required then? What's changed?

Interestingly the media haven't picked up on the fact that the WCML franchise should have already ended (March 2012), but Virgin were allowed to keep running it for a few more months - http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/15/west-coast-sale-delayed - it's not been a hasty decision.

 

[Realfish]

I'll be very surprised if he does. If there was anything in it, Virgin would have done something about it already, rather than resorting to an e-petition and trying to rubbish Firstgroup.
The whole thing is just about Branson throwing his toys out of the pram because he hasn't got his way.
It's all rather pathetic, really.

A BBC reporter has just said he understands it now seems clear that Virgin are to head for the courts

 

[tbtc]

A BBC reporter has just said he understands it now seems clear that Virgin are to head for the courts

Good luck to them. But they are doing this because they see it as good/cheap publicity (see Richard Branson play consumer champion "David" against the big bad "Goliath" of FirstGroup/ Government) rather than because there's a realisitic chance of getting First's winning bid overturned.

 

[Metroland]

Good luck to them. But they are doing this because they see it as good/cheap publicity (see Richard Branson play consumer champion "David" against the big bad "Goliath" of FirstGroup/ Government) rather than because there's a realisitic chance of getting First's winning bid overturned.

In your opinion.

More likely they think the franchise system is botched, and quite honestly they won't get a lot of disagreement there.

Except from the politicians that won't spell out the stark choices to voters, or are too tied up in unproven ideologies to be very effective at reform.

 

[WatcherZero]

Virgin filed their notice of intention to seek independent judicial review letter this morning as part of the normal franchising procedure, they have had lawyers working over the bank holiday weekend to outline the case however the final decision to proceed hasnt been taken. Their waiting until the 11th hour to give the Government the chance to reflect gracefully. They still think Cameron might overrule Greening.

 

[tbtc]

In your opinion.

More likely they think the franchise system is botched, and quite honestly they won't get a lot of disagreement there.

Except from the politicians that won't spell out the stark choices to voters, or are too tied up in unproven ideologies to be very effective at reform.

There are two separate things here:

Is the overall franchise system fair? Virgin aren't asking for renationalisation (like many enthusiasts) or anything radical - they like the "botched" system because it allows them to make profits - even when things go wrong for them there's always "revenue support" to bail them out. Their problem isn't with the system, it's with the fact that they aren't the "winner" of the new franchise (allowed to profit from this "botch").

Should First have "won" the WCML franchise? Yes, no question. They offered the highest premium, they are planning on getting new trains, running additional services to "new" destinations etc.
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Virgin filed their notice of intention to seek independent judicial review letter this morning as part of the normal franchising procedure, they have had lawyers working over the bank holiday weekend to outline the case however the final decision to proceed hasnt been taken. Their waiting until the 11th hour to give the Government the chance to reflect gracefully. They still think Cameron might overrule Greening.

What is there to "reflect gracefully" about? Is there any allegation of anything actually wrong here? Or just a lot of bluff/ spin?

 

[philjo]

So I've just read on the Beeb site! I'd got it into my head that it was today that was the earliest date for signing - heaven knows why!

Perhaps they forgot to count the bank holiday? Isn't the cooling off period 10 working days?
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Unless scrutiny of the bids by the Transport Select committee or MPs was specified as part of the evaluation process during the tender documents surely they cannot now decide the outcome of the bid.

When we issued an ITT recently we had to state the weighting etc (i.e. % given to cost, specification, etc) & the selection methods which we had to stick to & document when evaluating the tenders received.

 

[Metroland]

There are two separate things here:

Is the overall franchise system fair? Virgin aren't asking for renationalisation (like many enthusiasts) or anything radical - they like the "botched" system because it allows them to make profits - even when things go wrong for them there's always "revenue support" to bail them out. Their problem isn't with the system, it's with the fact that they aren't the "winner" of the new franchise (allowed to profit from this "botch").

Should First have "won" the WCML franchise? Yes, no question. They offered the highest premium, they are planning on getting new trains, running additional services to "new" destinations etc.
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The line they are taking they have put in a bid that is reasonable given their experience of running the franchise since the mid-1990s and their vast commercial experience. They argue the DFT are trying to extract too much out of it and question whether there is checks and balances to stop First walking away from it.

They argue we cannot be bothered to spend millions of pounds on bids if the DFT are just being unrealistic. It is not worth the commercial risk.

They also argue the could have bid higher, but they don't think would have been good for passenger and create further damage to their brand. Something they are not prepared to risk.

Because the bids are in secret, to express the opinion that this is just for publicity (although understandable) is pure conjecture, as is the notion that First put in the better bid. It may be by DFT evaluation, but it doesn't mean that judgement is correct in the wider sense.

Moreover if the DFT want to attract private investment then questions have to be asked about processes when one of Britain's most successful companies is saying it isn't commercial.

 

[MK Tom]

From the Telegraph: "Sir Richard was also ready to increase the stakes by mounting a legal challenge to try to block the deal between the Department for Transport and First Choice"

Think you got the wrong company there!

 

[Ferret]

From the Telegraph: "Sir Richard was also ready to increase the stakes by mounting a legal challenge to try to block the deal between the Department for Transport and First Choice"

Think you got the wrong company there!

Nice - Boeing 757s up the WCML! Another journalism fail!

 

[Realfish]

They offered the highest premium, they are planning on getting new trains, running additional services to "new" destinations etc.

First offered the highest premium for sure - but backloaded to the end of their franchise. Up to March 2022, Virgin's bid offered the taxpayer the better deal.

Planning on getting New trains? So were Virgin

Additional services to new destinations? So were Virgin

Greening also added this morning that First were investing in Stations. A p*** poor £22m, according their PR blurb. That wouldn't buy more than a coat of paint.

 

[Oswyntail]

I realise that nothing is simple, and that we know almost nothing about the bids. However, surely the only question is whether those evaluating the bids followed the appropriate defined procedure. I very much doubt whether the bids were identically laid out and specified in such a way as to do a direct comparison, so the evaluators will have had to exercise their judgement. In their judgement, First had the better bid. Unless Virgin can show that there was anything irregular in how the process was followed, they haven't a chance.

 

[swt_passenger]

... I very much doubt whether the bids were identically laid out and specified in such a way as to do a direct comparison, so the evaluators will have had to exercise their judgement.

On the contrary, there are detailed instructions on exactly how to lay out the bid so that they are comparable - even down to font size, and numbers of pages allowed for each section. The info on exactly how to prepare bid documentation is cross referenced in the ITT, and includes all sorts of DfT financial templates and models, but they're not directly available on the DfT website.

You can also find questions and answers posed by bidders where they go into trivial details about page formatting to meet DfT's exact rquirements.

 

[HH]

Planning on getting New trains? So were Virgin.

And rather more, a little bird tells me.

 

[junglejames]

In your opinion.

More likely they think the franchise system is botched, and quite honestly they won't get a lot of disagreement there.

Except from the politicians that won't spell out the stark choices to voters, or are too tied up in unproven ideologies to be very effective at reform.

If Virgin had any real grievance, then they would have asked for a review before now.
They may think the franchise system is botched, but they happily took part in it, and as mentioned by others, they are only kicking up a stink now they have lost. Lost fairly as well.

 

[The Planner]

Showing up on BBC that Virgin have gone for court action.

 

[chris89]

Showing up on BBC that Virgin have gone for court action.

Just saw that and was about to post it.

Currently only 'Breaking News' headline bit on the site. No page yet.

Chris

 

[williamn]

here's the story. All very dramatic!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19402133

 

[Hazlehead]

This is getting insane now! Do they really think that after all the fuss they have made that the dft is just going to simply hand it to virgin now and say well done. They lost the bid, stop being pathetic and accept you lost. Now staff are back in limbo not knowing what plans will be, when it will change or anything!

 

[Lampshade]

From the Telegraph: "Sir Richard was also ready to increase the stakes by mounting a legal challenge to try to block the deal between the Department for Transport and First Choice"

Think you got the wrong company there!

BBC said 'First Direct' yesterday :roll:

Greening also added this morning that First were investing in Stations. A p*** poor £22m, according their PR blurb. That wouldn't buy more than a coat of paint.

Going by a crude average, it's evident that at least £6m of that is for ticket gates alone.

 

[PHILIPE]

Whatever we think of Richard Branson, he is merely lodging an appeal if you look at it in that sense. I know there is nio provision for appeals in the franchising system but should there not be.
The Government always say value for money or good deal for the taxpayer as though passengers don't matter. Good to see somebody taking on this arrogant government.

 

[HH]

If there is a review, I would imagine DOR will take over in December, while a througher investigation is carried out on the whole system. If the system proves to be ok, first will get it at a later date, if not, it will go out to tender again, using an improved system for selecting the best bid

Your imagination is running riot. There is no precedent for this; what is there to investigate? The system is known. Undoubtedly it could do with a review; in fact DfT continually review the process, and I bet there will be a few changes following this, but it doesn't need investigation.

Nor are DOR ready to run a second franchise; and it would be very costly to delay First's start. Hell, if I were First I would be straight in there asking for a reduction in my Premium. Hell I'd be taking legal opinion on whether I already had a claim based on Branson's campaign, which should have been squashed by DfT under bidder behaviour guidelines, affecting my revenue.

BREAKING: I hear the legal challenge has been lodged, on two bases. One that DfT has no faith in its own process as is shown by changes on the latest franchises; Two that the bids were not judged on an equal basis, as First would have been asked for a £500m risk adjustment guarantee, not £190m.

By the way, the latter is also my view as the area where DfT are weakest.

 

[williamn]

More detail in the FT
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/eceef950-f114-11e1-89b2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz24qunjOnI

 

[F Great Eastern]

Big precedent has been set now, anyone who loses out to someone who has bid more than they have are now going to be open to take the same action, especially if they are an incumbent.

If Virgin are successful then no doubt it will leave the door open for others to take legal action against franchises they have lost in the past, as they had to put up with the same system that is being claimed as being broken.

 

[williamn]

Only if they believe they have some footing. This will cost Virgin a lot of money, so they must believe they have at least some chance of winning.

 

[F Great Eastern]

My point is, if the system is flawed in the way they are claiming, this means that all franchises are flawed that were let the same way.