FirstGroup eyes long-term First Great Western deal

[Zoe]

exactly... if it had been FGW that had purchased the HST sets then they would be required to transfer ownership at the end of their operation of the franchise, to the new operator...

Is this written in law or as part of the franchise agreement? If noe then I don't see how you could force FGW to transfer ownership even if they did own the HSTs.

 

[cj_1985]

Is this written in law or as part of the franchise agreement? If noe then I don't see how you could force FGW to transfer ownership even if they did own the HSTs.

the class 08s that FGW use at depots etc Must transfer to the next operator... its part of the franchise agreement...
TOCs themselves are only allowed to own certain items...
things like depots, shunters, company vans (i assume) etc transfer to the next operator...

for example (not FGW)... the class 08s that MML owned, transfered to EMT.
the 03 that WAGN owned.. transfered to FCC.

 

[159220]

First Group own a relatively small fleet of Class 43 units.

Taken from therailwaycentre official publication about the MTU engine refurbs from a few years ago i count 13 Class 43 out of a fleet of 117 Class 43s for FGW:
43092 43093 43094 43097 43098 43122 43153 43154 43155 43156 43158 43194 43198 (yes 13, please feel to double check that as 13 does sound odd! http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New TRC Main Pages/MTU Class 43s.html)
So i dont really think the Government is worrying here.

The new Greater Western franchise will be given to the company who gives the best cost effective proposal with perhaps a bold improvement programme, as envisaged from these newly proposed 15 year franchises.

I would imagine that the winning bidder shall be the company that proposes to replace all HSt stock, ie. SET Bi-Mode units for Penzance/Plymouth.

If your above worries about First Group holding this "trump" card of a silly number of 13 Class 43s out of 117 (11% of stock) to hold the Government to ransom to give First the Greater Western 15 year franchised. Do not be worried now. Plus i do think, currently First Group lease the HSTs to FGW. Well, First Group would just lease the HSTs to the new winner!! The idea they would take them somewhere else is silly. The Government say what stock provisions the franchises have, there would be no where else for the HSTs to go without the Government approving it.

Sadly these HSTs, whether you think they are great or old. The have little value considering they shall be scrap metal from 2016 onwards.

 

[cj_1985]

First Group own a relatively small fleet of Class 43 units.

Taken from therailwaycentre official publication about the MTU engine refurbs from a few years ago i count 13 Class 43 out of a fleet of 117 Class 43s for FGW:
43092 43093 43094 43097 43098 43122 43153 43154 43155 43156 43158 43194 43198 (yes 13, please feel to double check that as 13 does sound odd! http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New TRC Main Pages/MTU Class 43s.html)
So i dont really think the Government is worrying here.

The new Greater Western franchise will be given to the company who gives the best cost effective proposal with perhaps a bold improvement programme, as envisaged from these newly proposed 15 year franchises.

I would imagine that the winning bidder shall be the company that proposes to replace all HSt stock, ie. SET Bi-Mode units for Penzance/Plymouth.

If your above worries about First Group holding this "trump" card of a silly number of 13 Class 43s out of 117 (11% of stock) to hold the Government to ransom to give First the Greater Western 15 year franchised. Do not be worried now. Plus i do think, currently First Group lease the HSTs to FGW. Well, First Group would just lease the HSTs to the new winner!! The idea they would take them somewhere else is silly. The Government say what stock provisions the franchises have, there would be no where else for the HSTs to go without the Government approving it.

Sadly these HSTs, whether you think they are great or old. The have little value considering they shall be scrap metal from 2016 onwards.

but its not just the HST power cars... First Group own something like 40+ (have not double checked total number) HST mk.3s... so even saying that FG only own 13 power cars (iv not double checked).. they have more than 5 HST sets... so balance the 7 or 8 carraige HST set against 5 car class 180... how is anyone else going to make up the shortfall without the FG HST stock and power cars without having the DfT realocate stock from other franchises...? even just in the short/medium term untill the IEP is in service..

thats not to say that First Group will automatically get the new franchise... but it gives them a clear advantage

 

[Zoe]

The new Greater Western franchise will be given to the company who gives the best cost effective proposal with perhaps a bold improvement programme, as envisaged from these newly proposed 15 year franchises.

I would imagine that the winning bidder shall be the company that proposes to replace all HSt stock, ie. SET Bi-Mode units for Penzance/Plymouth.

I doubt it, orders of new stock are decided by the dft these days and don't expect new stock will be part of the franchise bid. The winning bid will most likely be the bid that offers the best deal for the taxpayer.

Sadly these HSTs, whether you think they are great or old. The have little value considering they shall be scrap metal from 2016 onwards.

That's exactly why it's a good idea to have the franchise retendered in 2013 as First still have the trump card.

 

[tbtc]

First Group own a relatively small fleet of Class 43 units.

Taken from therailwaycentre official publication about the MTU engine refurbs from a few years ago i count 13 Class 43 out of a fleet of 117 Class 43s for FGW:
43092 43093 43094 43097 43098 43122 43153 43154 43155 43156 43158 43194 43198 (yes 13, please feel to double check that as 13 does sound odd! http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New TRC Main Pages/MTU Class 43s.html)
So i dont really think the Government is worrying here.

The new Greater Western franchise will be given to the company who gives the best cost effective proposal with perhaps a bold improvement programme, as envisaged from these newly proposed 15 year franchises.

I would imagine that the winning bidder shall be the company that proposes to replace all HSt stock, ie. SET Bi-Mode units for Penzance/Plymouth.

If your above worries about First Group holding this "trump" card of a silly number of 13 Class 43s out of 117 (11% of stock) to hold the Government to ransom to give First the Greater Western 15 year franchised. Do not be worried now. Plus i do think, currently First Group lease the HSTs to FGW. Well, First Group would just lease the HSTs to the new winner!! The idea they would take them somewhere else is silly. The Government say what stock provisions the franchises have, there would be no where else for the HSTs to go without the Government approving it.

Sadly these HSTs, whether you think they are great or old. The have little value considering they shall be scrap metal from 2016 onwards.

It means First will be able to run more trains than Stagecoach/DB etc could. Can you imagine the reaction when people find out the new franchise will be running fewer trains?

If First think there's more money to be made running *their* HSTs on London - Hull or Edinburgh - Aberdeen then there's not a lot Stagecoach/DB can do.

 

[Zoe]

It has been suggested elsewhere that it's possible that due to the fact First own the HSTs, no-one else will bid. There would then be no issue for the dft as they would just award the franchise to First as the only bid.

 

[cj_1985]

off the top of my head the only possible way that another bidder could fill part of the gap left by the First Group HSTs is to use for talking sake DB owned LHCS and DBS class 67s with a DVT... but the class 67s are fairly in demand, and time and cost to get LHCS mk.3 and DVTs recertified (and converted/adapted if required) for haulage at 125mph and again also would depend on class 67 fuel range at 125mph (i forget if the class 67s have 125mph clearance for GWML use)

thats in theory atleast.... in practice though.. is anyones guess

 

[Pumbaa]

That's exactly why it's a good idea to have the franchise retendered in 2013 as First still have the trump card.

It's not a trump card at all though (for attention of all). It's in all parties interest for First Group to act as a Rosco and that's it. If First threaten to move them away, DfT block the move by denying them rolling stock rights for the move, and leaning heavily on ORR. If First don't offer them up to the next franchise, DfT slap them down and don't give it to them. Then it creates the first situation.

In a choice between letting them sit idle, or getting some cash for their use, it's a no brainer which they're going to go for.

 

[Zoe]

DfT block the move by denying them rolling stock rights for the move, and leaning heavily on ORR. If First don't offer them up to the next franchise, DfT slap them down and don't give it to them. Then it creates the first situation.

It's not like with the ROSCOs where the dft can specify exactly what stock is used where. First own the stock so how are the dft going to force them to allow it to be used by another company should they not win the franchise? As I have said before First could in theory threaten to scrap the HSTs if they don't win the franchise, it's very unlikely they would do but they are First's HSTs. I can't see how the dft could block First from using the HSTs on Hull Trains or even Scotrail if they wanted to as in the first case it is not a franchise at all and in the second case the franchise is not let by the dft.

 

[Pumbaa]

It's not like with the ROSCOs where the dft can specify exactly what stock is used where. First own the stock so how are the dft going to force them to allow it to be used by another company should they not win the franchise? Short of a compulsory purchase order I can't see any way.

No - but they can stop it going anywhere else. First won't want to lose money or business through a franchise.

 

[tbtc]

In a choice between letting them sit idle, or getting some cash for their use, it's a no brainer which they're going to go for.

THey wouldn't be idle, they'd be in use at Hull Trains/ Scotrail

 

[Pumbaa]

THey wouldn't be idle, they'd be in use at Hull Trains/ Scotrail

My point - DfT can easily stop that.

 

[Zoe]

My point - DfT can easily stop that.

How? Neither of them are dft let franchises. In the case of Hull Trains it isn't a franchise at all. Transport Scotland could in theory specify in the new franchise that only ROSCO stock may be used but this is very unlikely. If a company owns stock and wants to use it on an Open Access service then how are the dft going to prevent them?

 

[cj_1985]

How? Neither of them are dft let franchises. In the case of Hull Trains it isn't a franchise at all. Transport Scotland could in theory specify in the new franchise that only ROSCO stock may be used but this is very unlikely.

exactly...

IF First Group did refuse to lease their HSTs to DB, Stagecoach or whoever if they won the GWML franchise ..
where is the legal basis for the DfT to have any legal right to press on the ORR to refuse to permit the use of the HSTs in other FG operations?

honestly please explain it to me... cos im curious...

 

[knight2004]

I know Fgw WERE not seen as a great franchise a few yars back but their HSTs look good inside, more steating is better than less and was so needed due to the overcrowding i mean FGW trains are crowded enough now, but their prices are ridiculous for say short journeys to swindon. They do a good job on the HSTs out of London and are always clean and comfortable so it would be a shame if their hard work was wasted in 2 years tim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do like thier HSTs since their refurb and they still look clean, comfortable and have much needed seatign if they hadn't done this they'd be really bad by now. They are however an exopensive company to travel with but they're punctual and do a good job now compared to a few years ago

 

[Zoe]

their prices are ridiculous for say short journeys to swindon. They do a good job on the HSTs out of London and are always clean and comfortable so it would be a shame if their hard work was wasted in 2 years tim

I agree that the walk-on fares from London to Swindon are too expensive but there are some absolute rock bottom fares for this journey if you can book in advance, fares from London to Swindon have never been cheaper. It was First back in 2003/4 I believe that had the idea of using HSTs on semi-fast commuter services out of Paddington, the turbos were very overcrowded before this.

 

[cj_1985]

I know Fgw WERE not seen as a great franchise a few yars back but their HSTs look good inside, more steating is better than less and was so needed due to the overcrowding i mean FGW trains are crowded enough now, but their prices are ridiculous for say short journeys to swindon. They do a good job on the HSTs out of London and are always clean and comfortable so it would be a shame if their hard work was wasted in 2 years tim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do like thier HSTs since their refurb and they still look clean, comfortable and have much needed seatign if they hadn't done this they'd be really bad by now. They are however an exopensive company to travel with but they're punctual and do a good job now compared to a few years ago

to be fair though...i think the same has to be said for all of the intercity TOCs... unless you book months in advance, travel at unsociable hours or get your tickets paid by an employer.

 

[Zoe]

to be fair though...i think the same has to be said for all of the intercity TOCs... unless you book months in advance, travel at unsociable hours or get your tickets paid by an employer.

I believe FGW were actually the last of the intercity TOCs to scrap the Super Saver back in 2006.

 

[cj_1985]

I believe FGW were actually the last of the intercity TOCs to scrap the Super Saver back in 2006.

ah yes... the good old days of being able to travel to london from glasgow for less than £150:cry:

 

[387star]

I know Fgw WERE not seen as a great franchise a few yars back but their HSTs look good inside, more steating is better than less and was so needed due to the overcrowding i mean FGW trains are crowded enough now, but their prices are ridiculous for say short journeys to swindon. They do a good job on the HSTs out of London and are always clean and comfortable so it would be a shame if their hard work was wasted in 2 years tim
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do like thier HSTs since their refurb and they still look clean, comfortable and have much needed seatign if they hadn't done this they'd be really bad by now. They are however an exopensive company to travel with but they're punctual and do a good job now compared to a few years ago

I am so pleased to find someone who shares my view on the refurbished HSTs. They are great- comfortable seats with ample leg room and yes most do have a window view so stop complaining. Lighting has now been sorted the livery/colour design is a beauty to behold both internally and externally! They have retained the proper buffet and restaurant. They are a treat to travel on lets face it they were falling to bits in 2006!

 

[Zoe]

ah yes... the good old days of being able to travel to london from glasgow for less than £150

I don't think anyone can blame the TOCs for wanting to maximize revenue though. It was the government that decided the fare payer should start paying more than the tax payer. Savers used to be regulated at inflation minus one percent but this was changed to inflation plus one percent. The government could also have retained the Super Saver as a regulated fare. At least we still have some regulation though.

 

[387star]

When will C2C (LTS) refranchising start given it is now due May 2013, a similar time frame to Greater Western

Wouldn't surprise me if East Coast will be held back to 2014 which, as it happens, is also when the repainting job is due to be completed on the mk4s

Not forgetting Northern Rail September 2013 with TPE presumably to be extended?!

 

[TEW]

I believe FGW were actually the last of the intercity TOCs to scrap the Super Saver back in 2006.

And they still offer fairly cheap walk on fares compared to other TOCs. Looking at pence per mile a Penzance-London ticket is about the same cost as a Grand Central London-Sunderland ticket, and Grand Central are always praised for their cheap walk on fares.

Penzance-London SSR: £89. 305 miles each way, 610 round trip. 14.6p per mile.
Sunderland-London SVR: £81. 265 miles each way, 530 round trip. 15.3p per mile.


Regarding the HSTs, I think the actual advantage it gives First is overstated. To try to bride the DfT with them by refusing to offer them to any other franchisee will just rule them out of winning another franchise ever again. It would be suicide within the rail industry for First.

 

[Zoe]

Regarding the HSTs, I think the actual advantage it gives First is overstated. To try to bride the DfT with them by refusing to offer them to any other franchisee will just rule them out of winning another franchise ever again. It would be suicide within the rail industry for First.

Fifteen years is a long time though and if you were able to win a lucrative franchise like FGW it may not be the end of the world if you don't win anything for ten years. Also First could win one of the two other intercity franchises that are to be retendered although I doubt anyone is going to unseat Virgin on the West Coast, I think First are in with a good chance of winning East Coast. First could then have two lucrative intercity franchises for fifteeen years and may not care if they don't win another franchise for the next ten years.

 

[Christopher125]

Tim O'Toole isnt a fool, as he tellingly said its "the best tactical decision".

After all, given the massive amount of time, money and effort that goes into franchise bids these days who would even bother to compete with First given their advantage? They'd win by default.

Chris

 

[sprinterguy]

Pessimistically, I presume that we may well have to wait for the 2028 franchise (Assuming the upcoming one runs from 2013-2028) before the Great Western franchise is authorised to order new trains to replace the local Sprinter fleets, and the remaining South West HSTs. :cry: Other than the new build of IEP trains for the electrified GWML, I’m expecting fifteen years of further cascades, rather than any new build, irrelevant of whoever wins this franchise. Just have to wait and see I suppose.

 

[Masboroughlad]

Not if the unions have anything to do with it (which they won't!!!):

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/05/12-union-calls-for-ban-on.html

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not if the unions have anything to do with it (which they won't!!!):

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/05/12-union-calls-for-ban-on.html

i saw that and thought to myself. the government gave them an optioanl extension which they could loose money on, as if they were ever going to take it unless the going was very good.
I personally see nothing wrong with what they did, they took an oppurtunity givent o them. unions have gone wa ovetr the topt

 

[imagination]

Pessimistically, I presume that we may well have to wait for the 2028 franchise (Assuming the upcoming one runs from 2013-2028) before the Great Western franchise is authorised to order new trains to replace the local Sprinter fleets, and the remaining South West HSTs. :cry: Other than the new build of IEP trains for the electrified GWML, I’m expecting fifteen years of further cascades, rather than any new build, irrelevant of whoever wins this franchise. Just have to wait and see I suppose.

On the other hand, what with the electrification going on, there should be quite a few units to be cascaded around the place