FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[Simon Poole]

If Virgin do lose out, that will almost guarantee them applying for the air routes from Heathrow to Scotland, that BA have to give up after acquiring bmi.

Back to the rail v air wars.

Or Virgin Trains could return on the ECML?

What i also heard the deadline is at 7am tomorrow

 

[krisk]

Im sure it will be known before.

Intrigued as to what's in each bid, really hoping for something radical making use of modern technology

Pre book your seat, order your breakfast

 

[fgwrich]

From the BBC's today program:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9744000/9744375.stm

Bow Crow stating that station staff will be cut, so that rules out more stations with ticket barriers then!

Funny how he dosent mention how Stagecoach's stations are staffed then - at least First has dedicated staff doing dedicated positions of GW's stations, i don't know what's its like on EMT, but there's certainly less dedicated staff on SWTs stations - and i know this because i have friends in both TOCs. As for the ticket barriers - i thought that was mostly Dft led? various stations of GW are still getting ticket barriers, Newbury being one of the next ones to get them.

 

[WatcherZero]

North West today ran with the story as their second item, interviewing a union rep outside Wigan NW and passengers at Preston. The passengers all didnt want Virgin to go as they were happy with the service..... Thats not something you see often with the usual grass is always greener belief services can always be done better.

 

[swt_passenger]

Funny how he dosent mention how Stagecoach's stations are staffed then - at least First has dedicated staff doing dedicated positions of GW's stations, i don't know what's its like on EMT, but there's certainly less dedicated staff on SWTs stations - and i know this because i have friends in both TOCs...

How much of FGW's platform staffing requirement (I'm thinking of Reading for instance) is driven by the need to deal with HSTs quickly, where it seems passengers seem to have forgotten that they can close doors themselves?

Back to Bob Crow, it seems to me he just trots out the same predictions about staff cuts every time a franchise competition occurs, but where is the retrospective evidence that this has actually happened?

It once occured to me that the RMT must believe it is under-subscibed amongst catering staff, as they invariably highlight the likelihood of catering staff reductions every time a franchise process takes place as a matter of course...

 

[rail-britain]

The passengers all didnt want Virgin to go as they were happy with the service

Psychology on this one though, as people don't like change
Equally, the media excert could have been edited with all the other views removed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Intrigued as to what's in each bid, really hoping for something radical making use of modern technology

Pre book your seat, order your breakfast

There is very little that is going to change overall
DfT have specified a change to ticketing which must be implemented
Passengers can already pre book seats, so little benefit there

Pre ordering breakfast is pointless, as TOC can't even get a full service correct (from the reservations available)

 

[David10]

Back to Bob Crow, it seems to me he just trots out the same predictions about staff cuts every time a franchise competition occurs, but where is the retrospective evidence that this has actually happened?

Comrade Bob has about 5 standard ready to go press releases where all he needs to do is insert the TOC name, blame the capitalists and call for renationalisation. I think most people become immune to his bleatings over time.

 

[Wath Yard]

From the BBC's today program:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9744000/9744375.stm

Funny how the same old GNER, NXEC handing back the keys story is trotted out yet again. No mention of Arriva outbidding Virgin on CrossCountry and not handing back the keys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Psychology on this one though, as people don't like change
Equally, the media excert could have been edited with all the other views removed

Also I don't think a single one said they didn't want Virgin to go. They said they were satisfied with the service but I wonder what they would have said if asked yesterday. The delays weren't Virgin's fault but I suspect their views would have been somewhat different.

 

[HH]

Bidding for a franchise costs around £10-20m, thats actually barely changed since the start of franchising.

It costs that much as you have a constant staff of around 50, peaking at around 150-200 accountants, engineers, planners and managers each on 50-100k working for around 16 months with most activity in a 3-4 month period. Few qualified experts and short timescale of the work means huge consultancy fees, experienced bid team heads can earn around a million pounds alone.

Your numbers are high. The original bids were all done by small groups of consultants, but were much shorter. Since then bids have grown, and costs are now much higher. VT are claiming to have spent £12m, but that will include internal time, much of which they would pay anyway, and quite possibly included the cost of the franchise extension. Bid costs are usually in the £6-12m region, and you would expect Virgin to be at the high end of the cost spectrum.

 

[Pumbaa]

GoVia mentioned £9m spent on the new Thameslink bid.

 

[HH]

And yes, that's some serious money. I think a lot of it is spent on Consultants, offering their opinion on this that and the other, and what they think should go into a bid. These people often have no practical experience of the industry, and their opinions are sometimes of questionable value.

Consultants are largely dedicated to Rail, and most are former rail employees. Yes they are paid highly, because they are a scarce resource, and because they don't have a guaranteed income. OK a few companies are overpriced, and there are a few duffers, but generally you get what you pay for. They generally don't get paid for opinions, but for knowledge, analysis and ideas. And during a bid they have to be available 24/7, and often working 16 of those 24. Bidders fall over themselves to hire the good ones.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

aaahh you can't beat a good bit of union bashing, luckily for me. The likes of Bob Crow and other unions protect the rights, interest and livelihood of their members, I am very proud to be a member of the RMT, Bob may be loud and he may upset a few people but at least he fights for what he and his members believe, which is a damn sight more than a lot of unions and people do. Maybe if more people had some balls and stand up for their rights this country wouldn't be in the sorry state it is in.

(let the name calling begin)

 

[Wath Yard]

No problem with a union leader standing up for the rights and jobs of its members but it would be nice if he at least waited until he knew the rights and jobs of his members are at risk. His speculation must be as unsettling for VT employees as the the speculation in the newspapers.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

No problem with a union leader standing up for the rights and jobs of its members but it would be nice if he at least waited until he knew the rights and jobs of his members are at risk. His speculation must be as unsettling for VT employees as the the speculation in the newspapers.

True

But whats the betting he isn't far off the mark

He may be brash and arrogant but he does tend to be right

 

[Wath Yard]

We'll see very soon how accurate it is but the union rep on North West Today claimed up to 800 catering jobs were at risk. That is just scare tactics as nobody is going to remove all catering for both classes on WCML InterCity services.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We'll see very soon how accurate it is but the union rep on North West Today claimed up to 800 catering jobs were at risk. That is just scare tactics as nobody is going to remove all catering for both classes on WCML InterCity services.

I would say about half that (which is way too much IMHO) but alot are on fixed and temp contracts so that will be farce groups get out clause, I know jobs will be lost and of course unions will go in with all guns blazing, what gets me is something like my own employers, they make 30-40 million profit and plead poverty while shafting their own employees, as I have mentioned before at Northern everyone seems to be on a downer and can't wait for the new franchisee (as long as its not Farcegroup or Serco) Penny pinching is so ridiculous its not even funny but they expect us too look smart and professional when they won't even give us replacement uniforms (unless a photo of the wear or damage is provided) its a joke

 

[spyontheinside]

We have just learnt the announcement from the dft as to the winner of the franchise will not be made tomorrow but MAY be wednesday now Thursday. Make of that as you will.

 

[tbtc]

Comrade Bob has about 5 standard ready to go press releases where all he needs to do is insert the TOC name, blame the capitalists and call for renationalisation. I think most people become immune to his bleatings over time.

True.

It's funny to see him wanting a huge franchise to be awarded to Comrade Branson and Comrade Souter though - strange bedfellows

Funny how the same old GNER, NXEC handing back the keys story is trotted out yet again. No mention of Arriva outbidding Virgin on CrossCountry and not handing back the keys

I agree - for all the speculation, Arriva have kept to their side of the bargain (on a franchise that can't be easy to run). But the one exception (NXEC) keeps getting mentioned, ignoring those TOCs that lost money and still kept on till the normal end of the franchise term.

aaahh you can't beat a good bit of union bashing, luckily for me. The likes of Bob Crow and other unions protect the rights, interest and livelihood of their members, I am very proud to be a member of the RMT, Bob may be loud and he may upset a few people but at least he fights for what he and his members believe, which is a damn sight more than a lot of unions and people do. Maybe if more people had some balls and stand up for their rights this country wouldn't be in the sorry state it is in

It's pure panto with Bob - he's going to cry wolf regardless of the actual situation. Still, it gets his name in the papers which seems to matter to him (funny how nobody seems to know the leaders of any other Trades Unions, but Bob is always good for a daft quote).

 

[First ScotRail]

VT has been replying to people via social media today stating the announcements is due 'shortly'.

 

[spyontheinside]

Its defo an interesting twist. Perhaps a positive spin on things from a VT perspective. Then again...why delay it? Whats happening behind the scenes I wonder?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

True.

It's funny to see him wanting a huge franchise to be awarded to Comrade Branson and Comrade Souter though - strange bedfellows



I agree - for all the speculation, Arriva have kept to their side of the bargain (on a franchise that can't be easy to run). But the one exception (NXEC) keeps getting mentioned, ignoring those TOCs that lost money and still kept on till the normal end of the franchise term.



It's pure panto with Bob - he's going to cry wolf regardless of the actual situation. Still, it gets his name in the papers which seems to matter to him (funny how nobody seems to know the leaders of any other Trades Unions, but Bob is always good for a daft quote).

Panto to a a point, thats his style and it gets my union noticed (not always good but you take the good and the bad), he isn't usually far off the mark tho, people see him ass brash yadda yadda, which he is but he is usually correct and thats why he is still our mouthpiece.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The announcement won't be made until there is a contract.
A contract is not signed until it's signed. Many a slip...
DfT will not actually want Virgin out of rail, as it reduces the competition for later franchises.
Lots of issues to weigh up other than just the cash.

 

[spyontheinside]

Interesting. Perhaps its not lost for VT then? Everyone seems to think First is a done deal.

 

[Rich McLean]

I to think Virgin have won it, with an 11th Hour decision

 

[spyontheinside]

The CEO Tony Collins was in London today. Not rare but unusual. He travelled down from BHM on a work mates train. All very cloak and dager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I to think Virgin have won it, with an 11th Hour decision

I wouldnt like to speculate that VT secured the deal, but its very interesting all things considered - i.e First were by all accounts set to win this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting. Perhaps its not lost for VT then? Everyone seems to think First is a done deal.

It probably is, on price (the newspaper leak).
But the process then goes on to evaluate the additional options and to close a contract.
Then the Minister deliberates with the Treasury and makes an announcement.
Delays usually mean some problem has been found.
I have absolutely no idea what is going on, but I have some experience of government procurement.

 

[bnm]

Spy on the inside of where?

Your first post said you sided with Virgin and were in rail employ. Should we take your recent pronouncements as serious and unbiased?

Everybody else in the media are potentially wrong in their speculation? That's a lot of people to get egg on their face. Particularly journalists such as Tony Miles.

 

[First ScotRail]

Interesting few days ahead then!

 

[spyontheinside]

*gulp*

Who knows. From a VT point of view (employee) its very positive. Maybe false hopes though. Morale is at an all time low.

 

[dk1]

Radio 2 just announced that DfT has delayed descision.