FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[Pen Mill]

Funny how people always see the Guardian as above criticism isn't it? I knew my criticism of it would see the troops mobilised!

As for your criticism of me - the cat is out when it's posted on wnxx by somebody who really should know better. So - nice try.

Interestingly , WNXX have pulled the WCML rumour threads until after the decision is formally announced , Tuesday I believe.

 

[rail-britain]

I thought Virgin were going it alone this time round

No, the bid is by Virgin Rail Group for the InterCity West Coast franchise

Virgin Trains are considering bidding separately for the InterCity East Coast franchise (as are Stagecoach Group)

 

[DXMachina]

Do they have any business publishing a leak from the DfT in advance of the official announcement? VT's staff deserve more respect as far as I'm concerned.

If I was a VT employee I'd be damn glad of the Guardian's actions as it would give me longer to brush up my CV and start looking for alternative employment. The longer you get, the better.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I find it slightly strange that a number of these articles make reference to "First West Coast" being an already registered company.
Looking at the history, it was formerly known as "First Essex Thameside" and changed name back in early 2011 and is currently dormant.
Therefore the company was quite clearly registering a company in advance in the expectation that they would win a new franchise.
In this case it looks as if First may be about to start using this company set up in 2010.

I think this is just the First bid vehicle, all the bidders set up a nominal company to distinguish it from the others.
This is from the WC shortlist announcement in February 2011:

For InterCity West Coast
 Abellio InterCity West Coast Limited (NV Nederlandse Spoorwegen)
 First West Coast Limited (FirstGroup plc)
 Keolis / SNCF West Coast Limited (Keolis SA and SNCF)
 Virgin Trains Limited (Virgin Group Holdings Limited)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Funny how people always see the Guardian as above criticism isn't it? I knew my criticism of it would see the troops mobilised!
As for your criticism of me - the cat is out when it's posted on wnxx by somebody who really should know better. So - nice try.

If you see the Guardian as an enemy of the rail industry I wouldn't like to know your friends

 

[Ferret]

My issue with the Guardian (and other papers) is much wider than if they are pro or anti-rail.....see the newspaper thread on this forum.

DXMachina - that's part of the problem - some people will be worrying over nothing. For all we know, on Tuesday, the official announcement may not correspond with what the Guardian say. And if it does correspond, First may not be planning the mass cull that people think they are. Just because Bob Crow says it, it doesn't automatically become fact.

 

[merlodlliw]

Good Morning.

The result of the bid will be given to the press with the usual embargo IE copy sent Monday but not for publication before 0001 Tuesday, there is no doubt we we will know sooner if the usual format follows of leaky embargoes IE it will be announced tomorrow that X as won the contract.

Branson still as his enemy in my opinion, when he took on BA and Lord King & won, the establishment never forgave him, IE lottery comes to mind and the way that contract was manipulated so he lost, so don't be at all surprised at the outcome of the faceless wonders at DFT and antics of Ministers.

Bob

 

[Wath Yard]

As for your criticism of me - the cat is out when it's posted on wnxx by somebody who really should know better. So - nice try.

A lot of people on here won't be members of WNXX and won't have seen it. So your argument is you were just spreading the joy. :roll:

 

[Ferret]

A lot of people on here won't be members of WNXX and won't have seen it. So your argument is you were just spreading the joy. :roll:

Sorry to torpedo your argument old boy, but it was seen on wnxx by several Meridian employees. Crucially, the cat is out of the bag to the people that matter. Nice attempt at an attack on me, but I'm afraid you've chalked up an epic fail. :roll: Now, be a good man and wind your neck in a little.

 

[Morgsie]

No, the bid is by Virgin Rail Group for the InterCity West Coast franchise

Virgin Trains are considering bidding separately for the InterCity East Coast franchise (as are Stagecoach Group)

I thought it was Virgin 100% without the 49% owned by Stagecoach

 

[tbtc]

According to the Telegraph* article:

It is believed Virgin, which is headed by Tony Collins, has spent up to £60m bidding for rail contracts in recent years

...that's a lot of tickets from London to Manchester! Or salaries for catering staff...

Since these are supposed to be sealed bids (so there's no need for any lobbying/ advertising/ political sweetners), how on earth can it cost so many millions just to submit a bid?

Is anyone looking into the crazy costs of these? The money to fund them has to come from somewhere, which probably means us passengers.

(* - I presume that it's okay for the Telegraph to leak details and for Roger Ford to leak details and for other forums to leak details, but when the Guardian do it it's a bad thing, right? )

 

[Greenback]

Since these are supposed to be sealed bids (so there's no need for any lobbying/ advertising/ political sweetners), how on earth can it cost so many millions just to submit a bid?

Is anyone looking into the crazy costs of these? The money to fund them has to come from somewhere, which probably means us passengers.

This is just another example, as if one was needed, of the ridiculous waste of money that this model of privatisation has brought.

But never mind, we can just instruct McNulty to recommend making staff redundant to cut costs.

(* - I presume that it's okay for the Telegraph to leak details and for Roger Ford to leak details and for other forums to leak details, but when the Guardian do it it's a bad thing, right? )

Quite!

 

[Ferret]

Wrong tbtc! The Torygraph are no better.

And yes, that's some serious money. I think a lot of it is spent on Consultants, offering their opinion on this that and the other, and what they think should go into a bid. These people often have no practical experience of the industry, and their opinions are sometimes of questionable value. And - like football agents - they take money out of the industry which can't be replaced. And of course, as you say - it's the passengers who pay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is just another example, as if one was needed, of the ridiculous waste of money that this model of privatisation has brought.

But never mind, we can just instruct McNulty to recommend making staff redundant to cut costs.

Odd how McNumpty never highlighted all the money wasted on unnecessary consultant reports? Now, why is that?

 

[rail-britain]

I thought it was Virgin 100% without the 49% owned by Stagecoach

See post #664
Details also available on the Virgin Rail Group and Stagecoach Group websites
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since these are supposed to be sealed bids (so there's no need for any lobbying/ advertising/ political sweetners), how on earth can it cost so many millions just to submit a bid?

There are various level of set costs to be covered
It could be argued some are duplicated and be taken into account
The bidder has to cover all the incurred costs of the bid process, this includes the amount of time DfT reviewing the documents, follow-up documents, contracts, and so on
These costs are outlined in advance to each bidder

 

[jimm]

Wrong tbtc! The Torygraph are no better.

Er, no, just like the Guardian, the FT and others who have covered this story, they are doing their job, which, among other things, is to find out information that isn't in the public domain, in order to get people's attention so they buy the papers and/or get hits on their websites to help generate income.

Just like a certain Sir richard Branson, they are in the business of making money and this is the way they do it.

And the world of politics and government leaks this kind of information like a sieve (eg HLOS), or haven't you noticed? It may not be nice for the staff working for West Coast to find out the way they did but they aren't the first people to be put in this position and they won't be the last - and there would have been changes affecting staff whoever gets the franchise.

 

[Wath Yard]

Never mind, we can just instruct McNulty to recommend making staff redundant to cut costs.

Really?

So he didn't recommend longer franchises (which is being implemented), devolution of decisions (which is being implemented), closer relationships between TOCs and NR (which is being implemented) to name just a few.

Just a 304 page report stating staff should lose their jobs?

 

[Ferret]

Really?

So he didn't recommend longer franchises (which is being implemented), devolution of decisions (which is being implemented), closer relationships between TOCs and NR (which is being implemented) to name just a few.

Just a 304 page report stating staff should lose their jobs?

Hmmmm, that's a fair comment. BUT, did we really need to pay him a massive amount of money to state the obvious? Let's be honest - that is what those points you've listed are, and people who work in the industry have been saying similar regarding franchise lengths and NR's role/relationship with TOCs for years.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Really?

So he didn't recommend longer franchises (which is being implemented), devolution of decisions (which is being implemented), closer relationships between TOCs and NR (which is being implemented) to name just a few.

Just a 304 page report stating staff should lose their jobs?

All good ideas, especially the longer franchises, which of course will only work if the companies are still around to see them out in full, it would seem or at least its been suggested in this case that this will require huge fare increases from 2020. Was this part of the report?

 

[Wath Yard]

We haven't seen the detail regarding the alleged 2020 fare increases. My suspicion is it relates to pricing passengers off overcrowded trains and would therefore happen anyway if the predicted passenger growth occurs. There will still be regulated fares on the WCML and the increases in these will still be set by the Government. There have been large increases in unregulated fares on the WCML in the last 15 years so it would be naive to expect them to not increase in the future whoever operates it.

 

[Ferret]

Why is nobody in the corridors of power realising that you can't just keep on increasing fares ad nauseum?!

 

[tbtc]

There have been large increases in unregulated fares on the WCML in the last 15 years

Hence my amazement that the pro-Virgin camp are saying that First would have to put up fares to meet their premiums (as if Virgin would never dream of any such increases)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is nobody in the corridors of power realising that you can't just keep on increasing fares ad nauseum?!

Despite the big rises in fares under Virgin, the standard class carriages still seem pretty busy (in the way that the petrol price keeps going up and up yet the roads are still full).

Inelastic demand.

 

[The Ham]

So he didn't recommend longer franchises (which is being implemented), devolution of decisions (which is being implemented), closer relationships between TOCs and NR (which is being implemented) to name just a few.?

I'm not sure that longer franchises will save the government much money, as currently Virgin are paying a lot less than the new franchisee wil be paying.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I think connex, they did a really good job with south central and south eastern.

Sarcasm?

 

[krisk]

What happens when all the people that want or need to travel are doing so and the numbers even out or even dip slightly

Cheap advance fares are a novelty and using them to have days out means people can afford to do so but eventually aren't people just gonna say well we did a day out to London and did that trip to Edinburgh, do we really want to go again just cos the train fares are cheap?

I used to do it with cheap airfares but I've seen a lot of places as a result but now I fly less often.

Food for thought for First surely?

 

[WatcherZero]

According to the Telegraph* article:



...that's a lot of tickets from London to Manchester! Or salaries for catering staff...

Since these are supposed to be sealed bids (so there's no need for any lobbying/ advertising/ political sweetners), how on earth can it cost so many millions just to submit a bid?

Is anyone looking into the crazy costs of these? The money to fund them has to come from somewhere, which probably means us passengers.

(* - I presume that it's okay for the Telegraph to leak details and for Roger Ford to leak details and for other forums to leak details, but when the Guardian do it it's a bad thing, right? )

Bidding for a franchise costs around £10-20m, thats actually barely changed since the start of franchising.

It costs that much as you have a constant staff of around 50, peaking at around 150-200 accountants, engineers, planners and managers each on 50-100k working for around 16 months with most activity in a 3-4 month period. Few qualified experts and short timescale of the work means huge consultancy fees, experienced bid team heads can earn around a million pounds alone.

 

[Ferret]

WatcherZero, that sounds like nice work if you can get it.........

 

[Pumbaa]

Just to dispel a previous posters assertion of my preferences for the WC - I have never been a silver and red pompom waving Branson worshipper, and as far as I'm concerned they're all as bad as each other. Whoever gets it (but we all know its First) was going to have severely change the game plan. It's pointless denying it otherwise.

Despite the speculation that VRG are gearing up for a Judicial Review of the process, I doubt they will. All that will emerge is that the bid process will re-run, First will rebid and probably win again. VRG p*ss everyone else off and subsequently have their bids rejected on technicalities etc. I fully expect VRG to hand a poisoned chalice over, as they did with XC and launch a media salvo about what a massive mistake awarding the franchise to First is.

I personally think the branding of 'Horizon' carries weight. First will have recognised, and rightly so, that a small but significant number of people choose to travel by Virgin because they can associate with the brand. Virgin were successful in that quarter because they were 'different' to Joe Bloggs, and appeared innovative, stylish and 'edgy' for business. Stepping into a Pendolino vestibule is rather futuristic themed for a reason! Regardless of how much you despise VRG, you have to give credit where credit is due - with the Virgin brand they have created a desirable image for rail travel to Joe Bloggs and people travel because of it.

And I think thats what First want to emulate with the Horizon brand - it will do pretty much the same thing - or at least they hope.

Finally with regards to Roger Ford, rather than idolising him, I respect him. A railway engineer turned journalist, he knows where to ask probing and uncomfortable questions. Credit to him - he's rarely wrong and is asked for advice by TOCs and railway consultancies alike. He's even been invited to Marsham Towers a few times! Hitachi don't like him - perhaps because he's scornful of their reliability with the 395s despite being used so un-intensively and with Hitachi super-duper-hyped technology, and because of his issue with bi-mode IEP in particular. But when wrong, he gladly engages with readers and fellow railwaymen alike.

Put short - he's respected because he's usually bang on the money and does a decent job of holding those who matter to account.

In this instance, his info for WC is from Tony Miles rather than first hand from DfT, who is another first class railway journalist.

 

[hughesfowler]

A quick fare thought. At the moment yp railcards etc can travel at peak times on a saver ticket. Does anyone think that will carry on with first group if they win the franchise.

Personnaly I do not see it as to me it was a way for, especially yps, to be sold the Virgin brand ?

 

[krisk]

07:00 on Tuesday

Would like to see what both have to offer. If the Pendo was innovative in 2002 well what happens in 2012? What is it that will keep people coming back and attracting new business in the future.

I know what result I want and I hope that to be the case but I balance optimism with realism in so far as there is no way of determining the outcome.

One question i'd like to know is why leak details of what is supposed to be in Firsts bid bt not leak anything what is in Virgins? Is there a campaign to discredit first by making them look like the bad guys? Seems rather odd.

As for me, business as usual tomorrow morning. The train will still run, people will still be on it, they will need feeding and I keep going until I get told otherwise.

I try and suggest to people to dispel what you might read until you get any concrete facts about this but it is hard when there is story after story fuelling what may or may not happen.

I will be there tomorrow, there on Tuesday and there on Wednesday too and hopefully still there after December.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A quick fare thought. At the moment yp railcards etc can travel at peak times on a saver ticket. Does anyone think that will carry on with first group if they win the franchise.

Personnaly I do not see it as to me it was a way for, especially yps, to be sold the Virgin brand ?

I've heard rumours this may change but not seen anything anywhere to say this is a definite.

I'd be surprised if it stayed personally.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When is the announcement? I thought it was early Monday 13th but everyone now seems to be quoting 0700 on Tuesday 14th...

 

[All Line Rover]

A quick fare thought. At the moment yp railcards etc can travel at peak times on a saver ticket. Does anyone think that will carry on with first group if they win the franchise.

In a word, no. You'd have to be very naive to think otherwise.