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Flirt Doors

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phil beard

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Excuse me if this has already been discussed. I note from artist impressions, and photos of units in service on the Continent, that each car of the new Flirt EMUs and DEMUs will only have one door. Is this correct? If so, I must ensure that I do not travel in the section next to the driver in case a fire breaks out near the door and I cannot get out.
 
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Excuse me if this has already been discussed. I note from artist impressions, and photos of units in service on the Continent, that each car of the new Flirt EMUs and DEMUs will only have one door. Is this correct? If so, I must ensure that I do not travel in the section next to the driver in case a fire breaks out near the door and I cannot get out.

You are correct. Don't worry Phil I'm sure adequate safety precautions will be taken, you need not worry yourself.
 

najaB

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If so, I must ensure that I do not travel in the section next to the driver in case a fire breaks out near the door and I cannot get out.
I believe there's a driver's door so that would double as an emergency exit.
 

phil beard

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Why has this not been done in this country before, as far as I am aware (other than trams)?
 

TheEdge

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Why has this not been done in this country before, as far as I am aware (other than trams)?

Because of archaic fire safety rules that are based on non corridor stock made of wood with gas lighting and in a time before automatic fire suppression, breakaway windows and various other flavours of fire protection.
 

BestWestern

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Because of archaic fire safety rules that are based on non corridor stock made of wood with gas lighting and in a time before automatic fire suppression, breakaway windows and various other flavours of fire protection.

You won't find many 'breakaway windows' on trains nowadays. They were all replaced with toughened glass on the basis that retention of passengers within the vehicles is a greater concern in an accident than escape. Have a look next time you're travelling and you'll notice all the hammers have gone. Automatic supression is limited to the fire bottles beneath the solebar on DMUs, saloons get manual fire extinguishers. Struggling to think of any other 'flavours' of fire protection, aside from the use of retardant materials.

I'd have thought a single door design would be a disaster for efficient loading though?
 
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Mordac

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You won't find many 'breakaway windows' on trains nowadays. They were all replaced with toughened glass on the basis that retention of passengers within the vehicles is a greater concern in an accident than escape. Have a look next time you're travelling and you'll notice all the hammers have gone. Automatic supression is limited to the fire bottles beneath the solebar on DMUs, saloons get manual fire extinguishers. Struggling to think of any other 'flavours' of fire protection, aside from the use of retardant materials.

I'd have thought a single door design would be a disaster for efficient loading though?

So would I, but the last time I raised it I was told that it worked for Eurostar, so should work for AGA. :roll:
 

317666

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Do we know the car lengths for the new GA FLIRTs? If they're shorter than average (as they often are on articulated trains) then that may mean one door per car is sufficient.
 
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They do indeed just have one door per carriage. The coaches however do seem to be shorter than most other coaches normally are. Are the AGA versions the same as the mainland Europe ones? Or will they be designed differently with different specifications?
 

D365

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So would I, but the last time I raised it I was told that it worked for Eurostar, so should work for AGA. :roll:

I thought that a cascade of Class 373s to the London-Norwich route had been ruled out :D
 

route:oxford

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Excuse me if this has already been discussed. I note from artist impressions, and photos of units in service on the Continent, that each car of the new Flirt EMUs and DEMUs will only have one door. Is this correct? If so, I must ensure that I do not travel in the section next to the driver in case a fire breaks out near the door and I cannot get out.

Don't some HST formations have a coach that has just 2 doors in normal use too?
 

Class172

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Don't some HST formations have a coach that has just 2 doors in normal use too?
I'm not familiar with the formations of HSTs but is that the TGS coach you're alluding to, which sits adjacent to one of the power cars?
 

43074

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Do we know the car lengths for the new GA FLIRTs? If they're shorter than average (as they often are on articulated trains) then that may mean one door per car is sufficient.

I don't have a source to hand but I'm pretty sure it's been said a 12-car set will be 240m, so presumably each vehicle will be roughly 20 metres long... the drawings in the current edition of Modern Railways show a pair of sliding plug doors roughly in the centre of each coach which look wide enough that they will probably be sufficient.

Don't some HST formations have a coach that has just 2 doors in normal use too?

Yes, the TGS and the buffet vehicles (TRFB/TRSB), although oddly on LHCS Mark 3 stock the doors at both ends of the buffet car can be used.
 

BestWestern

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I'm not familiar with the formations of HSTs but is that the TGS coach you're alluding to, which sits adjacent to one of the power cars?

That would be the only such vehicle, with the exception of the full size buffet cars, which have no seats at the affected end. Neither is really relevant here though; the TGS can at times be slow to load or offload because of the doors, but HSTs don't make that many frequent stops. There is also a reduced saloon size in that coach due to the Guard's van and cycle area at the other end, plus there is another coach offering a second set of doors immediately alongside the TGS, and 6/7/8 other coaches to choose from.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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I believe there's a driver's door so that would double as an emergency exit.
I'm not sure that there is a external driver's door:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPj751dYeo8

Looking at that vid it looks like the vertical line by the cab might just be the end of the panel that forms the main carriage body. I'm wondering if the cab window assembly is designed to be removable/pop-out in an emergency
 

47802

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I think you can expect a drivers door on UK models.
 

D365

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Just because a train manufacturer has one specification for their european trains, doesn't mean that it's going to do exactly the same for their UK variants :roll:

Even if there aren't cab-side doors built in, there will be some kind of emergency escape.
 

BestWestern

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Just because a train manufacturer has one specification for their european trains, doesn't mean that it's going to do exactly the same for their UK variants :roll:

Even if there aren't cab-side doors built in, there will be some kind of emergency escape.

Indeed, if the only passenger door is at the trailing end of the end vehicles, there will need to be an exit at the driving end. It will be interesting to see how thia is achieved; it would make sense for this to be available as a cab access door to the Driver, but I'm not sure how Aslef would feel about an emergency escape facility letting punters straight into the cab. A Class 180 for example has an area between the saloon and the cab, and then another locked door into the cab itself. Presumabltly such an arrangement would be deemed a poor use of much prized saloon space on these units, though. It might make more sense simply to add a second door for normal use.

There were some recent Rulebook changes relaxing the regs about doors being isolated, but it was more about how egress facilities operate than removing the need for a means of escape, so I assume the requirement for the extra door will still exist.
 

jimm

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Excuse me if this has already been discussed. I note from artist impressions, and photos of units in service on the Continent, that each car of the new Flirt EMUs and DEMUs will only have one door. Is this correct? If so, I must ensure that I do not travel in the section next to the driver in case a fire breaks out near the door and I cannot get out.

Do you think someone might not have thought of the - remote - possibility of a fire and provided for emergency passenger access to the cab area in order to use the driver's doors to get out?

You know, like there is to get into the guard's/bike compartment on a TGS on an HST, or the bike storage area and cab doors in the driving coach on a Class 180, which also only has passenger doors at one end.

On the Anglia bi-mode sets the biggest fire risk will, amazingly enough, be the diesel power pack, which is in the centre of the trains.

Nor are Flirts exactly noted for going up in flames. I have found references to a minor fire in Estonia three years ago, caused by a battery fault, which was put out by firefighters, with the train surviving pretty much unscathed.

Norwegian ones have two doors per car. Pretty awful to travel on mind.

The Norwegian sets' trailer cars have two pairs of doors, the driving cars just have one pair.

I'm not sure that there is a external driver's door:

The current edition of Modern Railways has both artist's impressions of the design of the sets for East Anglia, showing driving cab doors, but also side profiles and seating plans for both the 12-car Norwich intercity sets and a four-car regional bi-mode, which also clearly show driver's cab doors on both versions of the trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed, if the only passenger door is at the trailing end of the end vehicles, there will need to be an exit at the driving end. It will be interesting to see how thia is achieved; it would make sense for this to be available as a cab access door to the Driver, but I'm not sure how Aslef would feel about an emergency escape facility letting punters straight into the cab. A Class 180 for example has an area between the saloon and the cab, and then another locked door into the cab itself. Presumabltly such an arrangement would be deemed a poor use of much prized saloon space on these units, though. It might make more sense simply to add a second door for normal use.

There were some recent Rulebook changes relaxing the regs about doors being isolated, but it was more about how egress facilities operate than removing the need for a means of escape, so I assume the requirement for the extra door will still exist.

The plans in Modern Railways show approximately a full window-length of bodyshell between the passenger area and the cab doors, presumably for equipment/crumple zone space (rather like Siemens Desiro UK designs), so I don't think the issue of prized saloon space arises here. It looks as though the cab can't have a separate internal door though, as the driver looks to be sat between the cab doors.

Whatever the case, I'm sure someone will have worked it out, got the safety people to sign off on the design and have suitable cab door locking/security arrangements worked out.

Drivers might also like to have a way out of the cab into the body of the train if a collision is unavoidable.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Have a look next time you're travelling and you'll notice all the hammers have gone.
Still a few hundred of them running up and down the ECML every day in the MkIV coaches.

Don't some HST formations have a coach that has just 2 doors in normal use too?
Yes, its coach 'B' on the east coast sets, where the doors at one end are dedicated to the guards office and bulky luggage & bicycle compartment.
 

jimm

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Yes, its coach 'B' on the east coast sets, where the doors at one end are dedicated to the guards office and bulky luggage & bicycle compartment.

i thought Virgin East Coast letters the TGS in its HSTs as A/B, where A refers to just the bike compartment, and B is the passenger area of the coach.
 

edwin_m

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Still a few hundred of them running up and down the ECML every day in the MkIV coaches.

Previously toughened glass was standard in windows, and this could be broken with a hammer. Some trains still have this and some (such as 185s) have "emergency windows" which are more easily breakable than the others.

The latest standard is to have laminated glass on all windows, which can't easily be broken with a hammer. As suggested above it is considered better for safety overall to have the strongest possible windows to prevent people being thrown out of an overturned train. The emergency services have confirmed that they have suitable equipment to enter a train without having to rely on non-laminated emergency windows, and if an accident occurs it's actually very rare for evacuation to be time-critical and usually safer to stay on the train until assistance arrives. Removing all those hammers is probably a safety benefit too.

The States goes the other way, with many windows having removeable rubber seals which then allow the glass to fall out. These have been responsible for fatalities in accidents by failing to contain people within the train.
 

47802

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Given there is no heavy rail train that has been recently built without cab doors even trains with end doors have separate cab doors now eg Class 444. Class 175, and given comments from another thread about drivers being able to open the door to get out without being obstructed by passengers, and passengers who might fall out, I would say the chances of the flirt units being built without a cab door in this country is about nil regardless of the fire regs.
 

jimm

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Given there is no heavy rail train that has been recently built without cab doors even trains with end doors have separate cab doors now eg Class 444. Class 175, and given comments from another thread about drivers being able to open the door to get out without being obstructed by passengers, and passengers who might fall out, I would say the chances of the flirt units being built without a cab door in this country is about nil regardless of the fire regs.

I've already pointed out that the side profiles published in Modern Railways clearly show cab doors on the Flirts for Greater Anglia.
 

Haydn1971

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There seems to be a lot of wind about this - the designs shown in Modern Railways show a set of table seats and three drop down seats - I'd estimate that it's a maximum of four metres between the front passenger bulkhead and the front doors. Fires are rare on trains, modern materials have reduced combustibility, even with a catalyst like for example a petrol bomb, moving four metres isn't a great distance, plus there is a staff door in the front bulkhead that could be used as an escape route (subject to breakable locks).

In terms of capacity, a typical end door regional unit like a 156/158, has two doors close together in adjoining units, so on a three car unit, there are four positions for doors - single at each end, then a pair of closely associated at the articulation between carriages - the FLIRT moves the end doors away from the ends then spaces the intermediate doors inbetween, plus provides a doorway that appears to be 1.5x wider than a typical single door on a 156/158 unit. The huge benefit to my mind is the low floor arrangement that will aid access by wheelchair users, buggies and people loading heavy bags or cycles - it appears at face value, a step change in a positive direction, but time will tell on how these units perform, I suspect they will be liked on the regional routes, with near level access, big windows, better toilets and lots of tables.


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