forced to buy single ticket, because ticket machine didnt print

[tyler4bcfc1]

Hi wondering if anybody can help

My sister went to trefforest on Monday from Bristol parkway, she bought a anytime return which the ticket says is valid for 5 days, when she went to parkway the ticket machine only printed 2 coupons which she thought was the outward and return tickets but it was actually the outward and receipt. so today when she came back the conductor on the connection train asked for her ticket she explained that the machine only printed the outward ticket and receipt, he looked at the receipt and said she was fine to travel and to show the receipt to the conductor on the main train and the person on the gate at parkway and she would be fine. when she got to parkway the gate person said because she didn't have a valid ticket they wouldn't let her through and she would have to buy a new ticket for £14. She tried to explain about the non printed ticket, but he got bolshie with her and took her receipt. as she couldn't get out any other way she handed him her debit card his hand held machine declined the card so she was taken down stairs by another member of staff and made to buy the ticket. she has the email conformation that she bought a return. can anything be done

 

[najaB]

...can anything be done

From a legal point of view, very little as she didn't have a valid ticket. She did have verbal permission from a member of staff, but verbal permission is as solid as the paper it's written on.

I would say that she might have some luck if she writes to the Customer Services team to say how upset she is that she was given conflicting information by different staff members.

 

[Hadders]

It was good of the conductor on the first train to show discretion but surely he should have endorsed the ticket to this effect on the back.

Surely the 'endorsements' box on the back of tickets exists for this reason.

 

[47802]

You would have thought that some discretion should have been the order of the day, very poor customer service in my view.

 

[David Goddard]

I agree that the conductor on the train should have endorsed outward ticket (lucky she kept that) and receipt.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It was good of the conductor on the first train to show discretion but surely he should have endorsed the ticket to this effect on the back.

Surely the 'endorsements' box on the back of tickets exists for this reason.

That is what it is there for, but some members of the forum will tell you no-one needs to get tickets endorsed because staff should just trust everyone because people are 'clearly honest and genuine' and 'aren't fare evaders at all'. This example illustrates what a lack of endorsement can lead to.

My advice is simple, contact the train company, if the machine was playing up it is very unlikely the traveler is the only person to have been affected by it and I would have thought there would be other people complaining about it.

 

[TheEdge]

I don't like piping up to pick holes it stories but does it not strike anyone else odd that off three tickets it was the middle one, not the first or last, which mysteriously didn't print?

 

[DelayRepay]

I don't like piping up to pick holes it stories but does it not strike anyone else odd that off three tickets it was the middle one, not the first or last, which mysteriously didn't print?

No, because this has happened to me (but I realised it was the return ticket missing and went to the ticket office for help).

I think they print from different "slots" so if there is something wrong with the machine it's possible for the middle ticket to get stuck but the first and third tickets come out ok.

 

[najaB]

I think they print from different "slots" so if there is something wrong with the machine it's possible for the middle ticket to get stuck but the first and third tickets come out ok.

It depends on the type of machine - some definitely print from one slot, others the receipt drops offset from the tickets.

 

[bb21]

Some machines print from two hoppers, so the outward and the receipt would be from one printer and the return portion the other.

This means the return portion only missing is quite possible.

 

[island]

Unfortunately as she didn't have both parts of the ticket she doesn't really have much of a leg to stand on – it was not valid for either her outbound or her return journey.

 

[Flamingo]

One for customer services to sort out.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't like piping up to pick holes it stories but does it not strike anyone else odd that off three tickets it was the middle one, not the first or last, which mysteriously didn't print?

Depends on the machine..."Slimline" Shere/Atos card only machines use one printer that takes both pre-cut "hopper" stock and "three to view" fanfold stock, alternating between the two.

If someone's put multiple stacks of the fanfold stock in and the top stack runs out, the printer will still think it's got tickets (low stock detection being done using a simple Light Dependent Resistor) but won't recognise that it's not actually printing the coupons that should be printing on the fanfold stock, so the scenario is perfectly believable.

 

[Crossover]

I don't like piping up to pick holes it stories but does it not strike anyone else odd that off three tickets it was the middle one, not the first or last, which mysteriously didn't print?

I almost had it happen at Dewsbury the other day - some of the TVM's there use dual printers (maybe all of them do, actually)

What had happened was one of the tickets had jammed vertically down the side of the collection tray (goodness only knows how) and took some getting out. It wasn't immediately obvious that was where it was initially, either

Same station I have had a ticket non print before too, after the ticket office was shut. It was a ToD job and I spoke with customer services about it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the machine..."Slimline" Shere/Atos card only machines use one printer that takes both pre-cut "hopper" stock and "three to view" fanfold stock, alternating between the two.

If someone's put multiple stacks of the fanfold stock in and the top stack runs out, the printer will still think it's got tickets (low stock detection being done using a simple Light Dependent Resistor) but won't recognise that it's not actually printing the coupons that should be printing on the fanfold stock, so the scenario is perfectly believable.

What an utterly appalling piece of design. Not fit for purpose.

Given the problems that occur for passengers when a print has failed, there really should be some kind of check that a ticket was fed through the printer head for each coupon before marking it as issued.

Neil

 

[andyb2706]

Good customer service would have been the best way here, okay she may not have had the valid ticket but if she had her outward ticket still....which would have the word "outward" printed on it which would have told me there should be a return ticket too with "return" printed on it and a copy of her e-mail confirmation and an explanation of what is believed to have happened, and before anyone with a sceptical mind say "who carries an e-mail confirmation with them" well I do!! A sense of common sense like the conductor on the train showed would have helped and would have been good PR for the company instead of some jobsworth.

It seems that a lot of these RPI's just see it black and white or is it a lack of training from their management that they can not discern from the person who is being truthful and the one who is trying to defraud the railway.

Also this is another (not isolated by the sound of it)incident of unreliability of TVM's that the TOC's are trying to push instead of booking offices. Give me a person to talk to any time over a machine that just spurts out (or doesn't as in this case) tickets at you and then not always the cheapest one that is available.

As you can see I have a certain dislike to TVM's. Am I old fashioned?

 

[najaB]

Given the problems that occur for passengers when a print has failed, there really should be some kind of check that a ticket was fed through the printer head for each coupon before marking it as issued.

The problem is that most of the time the ticket has actually printed, it's just failed to drop into the collection hopper. So unless you figure out a way to count the number of tickets that have dropped there's no easy way to detect this fault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good customer service would have been the best way here, okay she may not have had the valid ticket but if she had her outward ticket still....which would have the word "outward" printed on it which would have told me there should be a return ticket too with "return" printed on it and a copy of her e-mail confirmation...

Agreed, but equally it could be that she gave her return portion to a mate who didn't have a ticket. The gateline staff member did show discretion because the OP's sister was guilty of a byelaw 18.2 offence and could have been reported for prosecution.

That said, I believe that a well-crafted letter to Customer Services may see the additional ticket refunded, probably as RTVs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that most of the time the ticket has actually printed, it's just failed to drop into the collection hopper. So unless you figure out a way to count the number of tickets that have dropped there's no easy way to detect this fault.

Fair point, I was responding specifically to the point about the design of the "paper out" sensor which seems inadequate.

If a lot of tickets get stuck (which it seems they do) it seems the mechanism/chute need a redesign.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

You could have the cover on a ticket machine tray being locked until all tickets are printed. And machines could have simple sensors to ensure they'd all printed. If one of the two printers fails, it can't be hard to reprint on the other or request the passenger seeks assistance. At this point, the TVM goes out of service which has the added benefit of meaning that because the partial delivery can't be collected, it's okay to reprint on another machine or ticket window.

It might not be possible now, but it could be.

 

[najaB]

If a lot of tickets get stuck (which it seems they do) it seems the mechanism/chute need a redesign.

I don't think it's a high percentage given the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of tickets that are printed every day. But I agree that a better design would be a good idea as long as it's not particularly expensive to implement.

One thing that I would point out is that most of the machines I've seen say "Printing coupon X of Y..." as they print so if the passenger is paying attention they should know that they are short of coupons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's a high percentage given the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of tickets that are printed every day. But I agree that a better design would be a good idea as long as it's not particularly expensive to implement.

I'd expect it not to be, it would just be a case of redesigning the chute such that there is nothing on which tickets could get stuck. As these machines cost many thousands of pounds I can't see a suitable piece of plastic being too expensive. Then again you never know, this is the railway.

If not, the railway needs a better procedure for handling the issues, e.g. accepting a certain level of fraud risk by believing passengers who say the issue failed. Which might prove to motivate them to fix the issue

One thing that I would point out is that most of the machines I've seen say "Printing coupon X of Y..." as they print so if the passenger is paying attention they should know that they are short of coupons.

Possibly - however given how bewildering these machines are to people who are new to them it is not in my view reasonable to expect them to keep track.

A workaround option could be to put a screen up at the end of the print which said "The machine should have printed 3 coupons. Please retrieve them all and check you have them before leaving the machine. If not please report to a member of staff (or use the help point) immediately so the issue can be resolved".

Noting that in my view "purchase an Anytime Single and obtain a refund" is NOT an acceptable workaround.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

The machines with a long tray (as they also dispense change) seems like a poor design, with tickets falling down in different positions and being pushed back when you go to collect. Perhaps the tray for change should be separate, and tickets (no matter how many printers there are) fall down into a single chute so you can't miss any.

I'm actually sure there are loads of different ways to design a machine to be more efficient. But, given we can't even get decent software (which is considerably easier to change) then I doubt anyone will be rushing to re-design the hardware.

A lot of the profit for these manufacturers will come from NOT making radical changes, at least from the outside, and concentrating on things like improved security on the inside - and from what I've heard from staff, security isn't great and the alarms often fail or malfunction.

 

[Fare-Cop]

As these machines cost many thousands of pounds I can't see a suitable piece of plastic being too expensive. Then again you never know, this is the railway..

Neil

Forgetting of course that these machines are not built by 'the railway', but are built by so-called world leaders in the field, working to a design brief that requires efficient delivery for the user.

 

[bb21]

Forgetting of course that these machines are not built by 'the railway', but are built by so-called world leaders in the field, working to a design brief that requires efficient delivery for the user.

... and any redesign, however minor, will likely incur massive fees, knowing how "naughty" certain industries are.

 

[jon0844]

It's too late for any existing machine, but should be considered for future orders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's too late for any existing machine, but should be considered for future orders.

Indeed, though I think for existing machines a modification should be looked at, even if it is only a software modification of leaving the number of coupons printed on screen until someone presses OK so it's easier to check, together with explicit and clear instructions of what to do (and that it must be done there and then) if it didn't work.

Neil

 

[talldave]

The only explicit instruction is to make it clear to the customer that they're mostly likely screwed. If it's an unmanned station - there's nobody to help; if you were collecting TOD tickets, the booking will be registered as closed and even if there is a ticket office, there's nothing they can do about re-printing, but they may know how to open the machine to recover jammed tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only explicit instruction is to make it clear to the customer that they're mostly likely screwed. If it's an unmanned station - there's nobody to help; if you were collecting TOD tickets, the booking will be registered as closed and even if there is a ticket office, there's nothing they can do about re-printing, but they may know how to open the machine to recover jammed tickets.

Even a certain blue and yellow airline would not take pride in delivering that level of appalling service.

Neil

 

[scott118]

What an utterly appalling piece of design. Not fit for purpose.
Neil

welcome to the railway - if it's not the wrong kind of 'waxing' on the blank tickets, it's the poorly designed equipment. How frustrating must it be for the commission based conductors, when their equipment doesn't last half a shift or indeed their machine constantly non issues? Will the TOC do anything? I doubt it as it, the TOC, can only gain from these issues, regardless of whether it's employee or the customer who is penalised..

 

[BestWestern]

There is a clear need for TVMs to print anything other than travel tickets on a separate 'till roll', as indeed a ticket office or on board ticket machine would do (in the case of Avantix kit, using the accompanying chip & pin machine). Passengers presenting card receipts and collection receipts instead of their tickets, because they grab the first two bits of orange paper they see, is a common problem. It is also needlessly costly to print things onto ticket stock, or so the companies like to say (Guards are often asked not to throw away half used ticket stacks or to print card slips on them, because of the cost).