Fuel for thought.

[theageofthetra]

Could any drivers of diesel loco's/DMU's old and new answer a query on fuel management?

Does most modern traction have some kind of fuel computer such as even the cheapest road vehicles do to advise of miles to go until near empty? If not and with older designs how could a driver know roughly how many miles were left? To give an example- a freight loco is filled up and presumably someone in Control knows how many miles it will do over the diagramme it has. Now lets say there is disruption and instead of a clear path it is now stuck behind a stopping pax train for hours. Surely continually restarting a very heavy freight must use a lot more fuel than if it was coasting along on greens. How does a driver manage/monitor this or is there so much spare tank overcapacity it is never an issue. Over to you.

 

[HSTEd]

On traditional locomotives the driver has no way of telling how much fuel remains short of trying to use a dipstick from the filler cap. As I understand it.

There was a 67 that ran dry outside Marylebone once because someone had forgotten to fill it and hadn't told the driver.

 

[Llanigraham]

There have been a few 66's that ran out fuel on the Marches line!

 

[GB]

Happens more regularly than one may think.

 

[ainsworth74]

Happens more regularly than one may think.

So, er, maybe some should fit a fuel gauge that the driver can see to help keep it from happening? Just a thought...

 

[GB]

So, er, maybe some should fit a fuel gauge that the driver can see to help keep it from happening? Just a thought...

Its not really anything to do with the fuel gauges. The fuel is checked upon loco/train prep and if on the low side gets reported to control...in fact it gets reported to control whatever the reading but if low you make sure they are aware. They will then make a determination whether theres enough fuel for the journey. Sometimes they get it right, other times they don't.

 

[PHILIPE]

In the case of units, especially, (not 442s of course !!!) Gemini (this was the system in use when I was working) would contain the details of mileages worked and when fuelling took place. This would then play an important part as to what job it was allocated to by the Controller to avoid it running out.

 

[Hairy Bear]

So, er, maybe some should fit a fuel gauge that the driver can see to help keep it from happening? Just a thought...

Good idea...then we can stop at the first garage we see and top up. Not forgetting those important nectar points.Now wheres me card !!!!!!!!!.

 

[Minilad]

On a Voyager we get a tank less than half full alert on TMS. But it's largely useless as it's not like we can pull in at the next Shell garage and say "fill er up"

 

[LateThanNever]

Its not really anything to do with the fuel gauges. The fuel is checked upon loco/train prep and if on the low side gets reported to control...in fact it gets reported to control whatever the reading but if low you make sure they are aware. They will then make a determination whether theres enough fuel for the journey. Sometimes they get it right, other times they don't.

So Control don't know how to fill up a fuel tank?
Control ought to be shot....

 

[MotCO]

If a train runs out of diesel, does the engine need to be bled like a car running out of diesel?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/June07/ZQ1Z2798brv.jpg

In that picture there's a dial on one of the boxes on the underframe, is that a fuel gauge or something completely different?

 

[GB]

So Control don't know how to fill up a fuel tank?
Control ought to be shot....

To be honest, no, they probably don't know how to fill up a fuel tank as most of them are not and never have been ops. But thats not really the point.

Control will make their decision based on whatever facts they have at the time. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Even if a train needs fuel its not a simple as popping down to the nearest fuel point. For a start that fuel point maybe miles away, it might not be available, the extra charges have to be taken into account, paths have to be found and you have to have a driver that signs the fuel point.

 

[whoosh]

On a Voyager we get a tank less than half full alert on TMS. But it's largely useless as it's not like we can pull in at the next Shell garage and say "fill er up"

Meridians have an 'anomaly' warning on the Train Management System (TMS) when the fuel level goes below 25% as well as one for 50%. It's not unusual to have to ignore such warnings, as using more than 75% of the fuel tanks in a day, or a day and a half is routine. 25% is enough to from Derby to St Pancras and back easily, so the 'warning' is pointless.

I have been told that years ago, a Midland Mainline HST was diagramed for the rear power car providing Electrical Train Supply (ETS) to the train (so therefore using more fuel than the leading power car) to run out of fuel on the approach to Leeds (before going to Neville Hill Depot) but I think it was only on a Sunday. Can't have been much fuel left in the front power car. That's cutting it a bit fine if you ask me!

 

[Lockwood]

Its not really anything to do with the fuel gauges. The fuel is checked upon loco/train prep and if on the low side gets reported to control...in fact it gets reported to control whatever the reading but if low you make sure they are aware. They will then make a determination whether theres enough fuel for the journey. Sometimes they get it right, other times they don't.

If a train does run out of fuel, does the driver of the train get invited to have a Please Explain meeting?

 

[RPM]

If a train does run out of fuel, does the driver of the train get invited to have a Please Explain meeting?

Only if they did the train prep I would imagine. All preps are done by fitters on my TOC so the driver has no responsibility whatsoever for a lack of fuel.

 

[theageofthetra]

This certainly is an eye opener!

 

[6Gman]

Only if they did the train prep I would imagine. All preps are done by fitters on my TOC so the driver has no responsibility whatsoever for a lack of fuel.

In my day (pre mid 90s) fuel really wasn't a concern of the driver. Fuel range was calculated in relation to the diagram and control responded to any disruption.

 

[cjmillsnun]

HSTs have fuel gauges. They aren't in the cab though.

 

[pdeaves]

Vague memory: Wasn't there a 31 that ran out of fuel once (maybe 10-15 years ago, maybe more), where the driver or someone tramped across fields to get some diesel from a farmer?

Someone please tell me that really happened!

 

[BestWestern]

Vague memory: Wasn't there a 31 that ran out of fuel once (maybe 10-15 years ago, maybe more), where the driver or someone tramped across fields to get some diesel from a farmer?

Someone please tell me that really happened!

A pair of 31s ran out, allegedly, on the Wessex Trains top-and-tailed Brighton service many years ago. As for fuel from a farmer, unless he had a large diameter hose pipe laid across the field I very much doubt it - a jerry can or two is not going to help...!!

 

[Peter Sarf]

There was one somewhere in Anglia iirc - might have cluttered up the Felixtowe branch. The farmer came across fields to the line with a tractor towing a large tank (little tanker). That led me to wonder, if the Farmer uses red diesel, does that mean the railways use red diesel as well or was some extra tax due direct to the government ?.

I tried to google for it "train fuel farmer" but found this and could not resist sharing it !. Talk about how close farmed food is to diesel trains !.

 

[whoosh]

Yes, trains use red diesel.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Class 68s have a fuel guage on the Drivers Display Unit in the cabs.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why isn't a fuel gauge included in every cab of every diesel loco and DMU?

 

[D365]

Why isn't a fuel gauge included in every cab of every diesel loco and DMU?

Because, as has just been explained, the driver can't do much with the information?! Other than informing control if the reading is a bit on the low side...

 

[rick pike]

Vague memory: Wasn't there a 31 that ran out of fuel once (maybe 10-15 years ago, maybe more), where the driver or someone tramped across fields to get some diesel from a farmer?

Someone please tell me that really happened!

I carnt remember the exact details (I'll have to take a look at the six bells website) but that definitely happened to a Fragonset class 33 that was on a railtour to the Lincoln Christmas market.

 

[DarloRich]

Why isn't a fuel gauge included in every cab of every diesel loco and DMU?

although the information is of interest what practical action can a driver take to rectify a low fuel situation once he has left the depot?

Hello Control - this is driver of 1S45 calling. I have run out of fuel. But don't worry I can see a Tesco and have a 5p of per litre voucher..........

 

[BestWestern]

Yes, trains use red diesel.

Is it as pure as straightforward red diesel? A fueller mentioned not long ago that the stuff pumped into HSTs is more akin to marine fuel; i.e it arrives like lumpy treacle and has to be filtered before it can be put into a train...

 

[sprinterguy]

Because, as has just been explained, the driver can't do much with the information?! Other than informing control if the reading is a bit on the low side...

It may however allow a more proactive response between the driver and control in arranging to have the train looped out of the way, held or terminated at a suitable station, assistance provided or the train swapped out of service for depot attention if at a suitable location, rather than the train sitting down on the mainline without warning potentially miles from anywhere.

It would also allow for a prior indication to the driver before leaving the depot if the train has not been fuelled but this has not been communicated to control, quite possibly avoiding such a sorry scenario altogether: Control can only be effective as the information that they receive.