• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Genderism

Status
Not open for further replies.

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,873
Location
York
Normally my wife doesn't care about this sort of thing, but she does take great pleasure in replying "doctor" whenever someone asks her "is it Miss or Mrs?"
Good for her! She's earned it and so she deserves to have it used.

The two forms I really dislike are the Yank usage of firstname + initial + surname on the electoral role and the NHS use of "John Smith to see Dr Brown, please", where the medic gets their title and the taxpayer is deprived of any title -- how the socialist NHS keeps you in your place.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

GatwickDepress

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2013
Messages
2,488
Location
Leeds
The two forms I really dislike are the Yank usage of firstname + initial + surname on the electoral role and the NHS use of "John Smith to see Dr Brown, please", where the medic gets their title and the taxpayer is deprived of any title -- how the socialist NHS keeps you in your place.
Please tell me that's tongue-in-cheek, as all three of my previous doctors' surgeries have used "Mr. John Smith to see Dr. Sue Denim" or "Mr. John Smith to see Dr. Denim". I think it's more an attempt at informality than that sort of claptrap.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,809
Location
Isle of Man
where the medic gets their title and the taxpayer is deprived of any title

I think that's because they're trying to be informal but patients have this little habit of kicking off if they don't think they're seeing the doctor.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,208
Location
St Albans
Good for her! She's earned it and so she deserves to have it used.

The two forms I really dislike are the Yank usage of firstname + initial + surname on the electoral role and the NHS use of "John Smith to see Dr Brown, please", where the medic gets their title and the taxpayer is deprived of any title -- how the socialist NHS keeps you in your place.

What has 'taxpayer' got to do with it? The patient could be without any tax obligation (schoolchild, retired disabled, retired pensioner, prisoner under police escort, non-UK citizen on holiday, etc.). Why does every gripe need to present the suffering party as a 'taxpayer'?
 

DaleCooper

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2015
Messages
3,526
Location
Mulholland Drive
What has 'taxpayer' got to do with it? The patient could be without any tax obligation (schoolchild, retired disabled, retired pensioner, prisoner under police escort, non-UK citizen on holiday, etc.). Why does every gripe need to present the suffering party as a 'taxpayer'?

Virtually everyone pays tax of some kind, I'm retired with an income below the income tax threshold but I still pay council tax, VAT, insurance tax, alcohol duty etc.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,208
Location
St Albans
Virtually everyone pays tax of some kind, I'm retired with an income below the income tax threshold but I still pay council tax, VAT, insurance tax, alcohol duty etc.

But in the context of the subject, 'taxpayer' was irrelevant as the post was about asymetrical salutations between medical practitioner and patient. On the issue of whether the patient pays tax, even VAT has no bearing on the matter except presumably, in the mind of the poster, where a patient who pays tax has some elevated rights or status.
It is also meaningless as the doctor as an employee almost without exception would pay tax whereas a proportion of the patients may not, - as I have indicated. Arguably, in such a childish argument, the doctor would inevitably trump the patient with both taxpayer and professional qualifications in this bizarre idea of social status.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,873
Location
York
Please tell me that's tongue-in-cheek, as all three of my previous doctors' surgeries have used "Mr. John Smith to see Dr. Sue Denim" or "Mr. John Smith to see Dr. Denim". I think it's more an attempt at informality than that sort of claptrap.
Only half tongue-in-cheek. You've clearly had a different experience from me with your three practices -- the last two that I've had have both done as I quoted, as have the last three hospitals I've had anything to do with. So I am citing personal experience from more than one location in more than one town.

As for the bit you highlighted, what I was referring to there was what seems to be the standard practice of Labour Party speakers of talking about "our NHS" rather than "the NHS". It always reminds me of the SED usage of "unsere DDR" that I got used to hearing in the then Deutsche Demokratische Republik some while ago (a usage which gave rise to some good popular jokes).
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
I think using the patient's first name is important. My wife had a diabetic hospital appointment 2 years ago and the doctor called in his doorway "Mrs Evans". Her test results were awful so arranged to have further tests but just as leaving he said "Mrs Christine Evans ?" No - "Anne Evans". Turned out he had got another Mrs. Evans' paper fie.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,873
Location
York
I think using the patient's first name is important. My wife had a diabetic hospital appointment 2 years ago and the doctor called in his doorway "Mrs Evans". Her test results were awful so arranged to have further tests but just as leaving he said "Mrs Christine Evans ?" No - "Anne Evans". Turned out he had got another Mrs. Evans' paper fie.
Your point is a very important one and absolutely correct -- but in this case the medic in question did your wife the courtesy of using the "Mrs" too.
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
639
The topic of gender is quite prevelant in university campuses nowadays (or at least it was in mine). I happen to fell the whole concept of gender is outdated because the stereotypical norms of male and female aren't really sufficient to describe anyone's gender.

I do however have a few problems with the whole movement on their being an infinite amount of genders. Firstly if you are saying that you don't fit a gender you are admitting and reinforcing gender stereotypes in my opinion. Secondly I believe that gender is beginning to take the form of personality. For example I act more masculine with certain people and less so with other people. This doesn't mean that I have changed gender, I just adapt my personality according to a situation as do most people.

Another problem I have is that a lot of people who consider them transgender want the pronoun of they to be used and openly get angry if somebody doesn't use it for whatever reason. Finally, this from personal experience at university and may not be the case everywhere, a lot of transgender people that I have met are very quick to judge and label people. Perhaps it's a defense mechanism but when you have transgender people calling people transphobes when they disagree with them on any topic something is not quite right.

Gender should be abolished. Simply have biological sex or chosen sex for people born with either both or zero sexual organs and then let people act as they please. Dont however try putting silly labels on gender.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,809
Location
Isle of Man
Finally, this from personal experience at university and may not be the case everywhere, a lot of transgender people that I have met are very quick to judge and label people.

Student politics generally has a lot of special snowflakes who are exceptionally quick to take offence at anything and everything, and half the time seem to be actively seeking out something to get offended by.

I think it's an age thing. I think a lot of us were painfully earnest at 18, I know I was. They'll grow up.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
Student politics generally has a lot of special snowflakes who are exceptionally quick to take offence at anything and everything, and half the time seem to be actively seeking out something to get offended by.

I think it's an age thing. I think a lot of us were painfully earnest at 18, I know I was. They'll grow up.

Very wise. And how true.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,784
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I know the thread has moved on a little, but with regard to facilities, to me it would make sense to have a room containing urinals, and a room containing cubicles, rather than just male/female toilets.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
My point was that the person in question may or may not identify as a woman, but if they declare to the staff that they do so, should they be permitted to use changing rooms designated for 'women'?

An interesting discussion.

With regard to the above, it's a valid point, despite the clear 'issue dodging' going on in response. I presume that one does not have to have their sexual organs surgically altered in order to 'identify' as a different sex. The point being made here then, really rather obviously, is that if I rock up to a pool and enter the female changing rooms, because that's where I feel comfortable, and then proceed to whip my meat and two veg out, is that alright? Who has the rights here, the person identifying as female but who is biologically a bloke, or the females expecting the female changing rooms with, well, females? That's a genuine question; what do we think? The situation is perfectly possible, if we follow the vein of total non-discrimination.

Another situation. You commence a relationship with somebody who, so far as you can tell, is of the appropriate sex. At some point later, you discover the individual is transgender. The person you have been having sexual relations with is, in fact biologically the 'wrong' sex. Is this okay? To be very blunt indeed, do you have the right to know if the person you're bonking used to be a bloke? It certainly wouldn't be to my taste. Or is it just tough luck?! Where do you draw lines as to what is acceptable, or where boundaries should lie?
 
Last edited:

TheNewNo2

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2015
Messages
1,008
Location
Canary Wharf
Another situation. You commence a relationship with somebody who, so far as you can tell, is of the appropriate sex. At some point later, you discover the individual is transgender. The person you have been having sexual relations with is, in fact biologically the 'wrong' sex. Is this okay? To be very blunt indeed, do you have the right to know if the person you're bonking used to be a bloke? It certainly wouldn't be to my taste. Or is it just tough luck?! Where do you draw lines as to what is acceptable, or where boundaries should lie?

You like this person physically and mentally to go into a relationship, and then you suddenly find them disgusting because of (I'll assume from your assumptions) a medical procedure they underwent? That reflects pretty poorly on you as a person.

If you like someone, it shouldn't matter what genitalia they have now, or ever had - you like that person, go with it.

One further note is that many trans people feel forced to being very upfront about this, out of fear of violence from the other party if they're not.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
You like this person physically and mentally to go into a relationship, and then you suddenly find them disgusting because of (I'll assume from your assumptions) a medical procedure they underwent? That reflects pretty poorly on you as a person.

If you like someone, it shouldn't matter what genitalia they have now, or ever had - you like that person, go with it.

One further note is that many trans people feel forced to being very upfront about this, out of fear of violence from the other party if they're not.

I would offer that many people would find that a very significant issue I'm afraid. This is the challenge in normalising things which, to many people, are far from normal. The rights of one side will always be lost somewhere in the fog.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
I would offer that many people would find that a very significant issue I'm afraid. This is the challenge in normalising things which, to many people, are far from normal. The rights of one side will always be lost somewhere in the fog.

We seemed to resolve gay marriage, in time.

I don't see the gender issue as being different, we are just going along the road - somewhat slowly, unfortunately.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
We seemed to resolve gay marriage, in time.

I don't see the gender issue as being different, we are just going along the road - somewhat slowly, unfortunately.

Gay marriage does not have the potential for the unwilling involvement of others. Those 'others' do have rights, however we may feel about that. More broadly, not everyone is convinced that a world where the very fabric of humanity, one's sex, is done away with in favour of 'anything goes' is a good way for the human race to be going. How long I wonder before the first well publicised case of somebody who decides they can no longer 'identify' as human, and demands appropriate treatment to become whatever sort of beast/being/Star Wars character they have decided they really are on the inside? Maybe that's another evolutionary step that only a bigot would suggest is a little too far, or maybe it isn't? Where do we stop, or indeed don't we?
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
Gay marriage does not have the potential for the unwilling involvement of others. Those 'others' do have rights, however we may feel about that. More broadly, not everyone is convinced that a world where the very fabric of humanity, one's sex, is done away with in favour of 'anything goes' is a good way for the human race to be going. How long I wonder before the first well publicised case of somebody who decides they can no longer 'identify' as human, and demands appropriate treatment to become whatever sort of beast/being/Star Wars character they have decided they really are on the inside? Maybe that's another evolutionary step that only a bigot would suggest is a little too far, or maybe it isn't? Where do we stop, or indeed don't we?

But someone identifying as a woman when they were born a man, or even identifying as asexual or whatever - doesn't require your involvement.

You could say that the vast majority of men identifying as male requires your involvement because that's what decides which toilet you go into - but that would be ridiculous.

There were lots of people who thought gay people being married was "not a good way for the human race to be going". Tough titty. The world didn't explode just because gay people got married, and it won't explode if we decide to have genderless toilets or to do away with Mr and Mrs (which are archaic anyway...).
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,627
In fairness, I can see why some people who don't have a problem with homosexual marriage do have a problem with transgenderism. It's a more complex issue but personally I couldn't give a rat's ass what people choose to identify as. However, I'd appreciate it if a woman I was with could declare if she was born a woman. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect this honesty from people and if someone is dumped for this reason, then we should respect their opinion.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
However, I'd appreciate it if a woman I was with could declare if she was born a woman. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect this honesty from people and if someone is dumped for this reason, then we should respect their opinion.

Agreed. I think if you're going to have sex with someone you ought to know some basic facts.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,627
Agreed. I think if you're going to have sex with someone you ought to know some basic facts.

Very much so. I don't mean to sound offensive and discrimination against the people in question is wrong, but it is not wrong to feel uncomfortable if you have been with someone, only to find out they had undergone a sex change op. Of course some people would be ok with this but others would not, honesty is needed and I don't think it's unfair to expect transgender to be honest about their past.
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
How long I wonder before the first well publicised case of somebody who decides they can no longer 'identify' as human, and demands appropriate treatment to become whatever sort of beast/being/Star Wars character they have decided they really are on the inside?

Do you really think someone identifying as the gender that feels natural to them is comparable to someone having delusions of being a fictional character?

That is an absurd false parallel.
 

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,575
Location
Stirlingshire
My word this is a thread full of "first world angst"

I wonder how the third world views this dilemma (imagined or actual) :idea:
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,627
From the BBC...

_90862656_f83e102e-fd6d-41d9-a3b3-4f2247677dfe.jpg


The murder of Hande Kader, a transgender woman, has caused an outcry in Turkey's biggest city Istanbul. Turkey remains conservative on LGBTI (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex) issues, but on Sunday activists will stage a rare protest in Istanbul, writes Rengin Arslan of BBC Turkish.

"Hande was one of the nicest people in the world. She was very calm normally but also hyperactive. She always went to the LGBTI marches. She pursued a cause that she felt right until the end."
Davut Dengiler describes his 23-year-old flatmate, Hande Kader, whose body was found in a forest in Istanbul last week.
Ms Kader, a sex worker, was last seen entering a client's car one night. Mr Dengiler had hoped she was still alive but he found her body in Istanbul's morgue for unidentified persons.
"I was about to leave the morgue. I felt a sense of lightness for not having found her there. At the last minute, a doctor there said, 'There's also a burned body - look at that as well.' I did. I told them identifying features. They then looked at the computer, at the report. The doctor put his hand on my back and gave his condolences. I lost myself," he said.
He explained Ms Kader's reaction to the deaths of other trans people: "She would go crazy when trans individuals were killed. She'd be so sad... She had been stabbed and beaten before. This didn't happen only to Hande. It happens to all of them."

LGBTI activists protest against violence towards trans people, but the rest of Turkish society rarely reacts.
Under the state of emergency, declared after the failed coup attempt of 15 July, restrictions on demonstrations are in place.
But for the first time, famous figures in Turkey have joined the calls to raise awareness of Ms Kader's murder and to take part in a demonstration scheduled for Sunday evening in Istanbul.


Hande Kader, 23, who went missing last week, had been detained at least once.
According to data from the rights group Transgender Europe, Turkey has the highest number of trans murders in Europe.
But "there is no safe country for trans people" as the group's 2016 report observes.
Ms Kader tried to call attention to trans murders in Turkey and the lack of justice. She was usually in the front at demonstrations.
Riot police use rubber pellets to disperse LGBT rights activists as they try to gather for a pride parade banned by Istanbul authorities 26/06/2016.Image


But it is perhaps the images of Hande Kader that have been shared innumerable times on social media that best explain the trans woman who is still waiting to be buried due to the processes of identification, post mortem, and DNA testing.
In 2015, police had banned the annual LGBTI Pride march in Taksim Square in Istanbul. They tried to disperse the crowds, using water cannon, rubber bullets and pepper spray. But Ms Kader stood stubbornly against the police.
She reproached journalists: "You take pictures but you do not publish them. No-one is hearing our voices."
Hande Kader's voice was silenced finally by murder, in a way no one would want to imagine: she was burned.
She earned a living through sex work, always putting her safety at risk. Like other trans individuals forced into prostitution, she worked on the street.
She sought a way out but could not find it.
"She did not like this work," her close friend Funda said, adding, "but who would like it, anyway?"
Violent ends
The trans individuals I spoke to nearly all have stories about how they "escaped death."

Homosexuality is not illegal in Turkey but analysts say homophobia remains widespread.
Kemal Ordek is one of them. Ordek, who uses the gender-neutral pronouns "they/their", says they were "lucky" to survive an attack at home.
"There are very few trans individuals who die of natural causes - nearly none," Ordek says.
"When you are pushed to sex work, it's not possible for people to reach old age. They are killed. I don't know how I survived. That's the sad part."
Ordek, a sociology graduate, earns a living mainly through sex work and is also the president of Red Umbrella, an association that defends the rights of trans sex workers.
"We are viewed not as people who can integrate into society but as the dirt of society. What grabs our attention most when we are walking on the street are the looks that see us as sexual objects," Ordek says.
'Turning point?'
"When I first became an activist, I would not be able to sleep thinking about the kind of news I'd get in the middle of the night," Ordek says.
"Even now, my phone is at the highest ringtone when I sleep at night. I wait for news: someone will be stabbed, someone beaten and I'll get called and I'll have to go there immediately. This is a never-ending mourning and state of trauma."
The identity reassignment process for trans individuals in Turkey is long and painful. Many don't dare to start on it. Because of this, trans women can't change the [gendered] colour of their IDs and can't work in brothels where they might have more security.
Sinem Hun, a lawyer who works closely on trans identity reassignment cases, says the state "wants to see" that both trans men and trans women have undergone surgery to their genitalia to establish that the gender reassignment process has taken place physically.
At the same time, she says, sterilisation is mandatory.
"There are trans individuals who cannot change their identity for five or six years," says Ms Hun. Very few doctors are qualified to carry out these operations, a difficult and expensive process in Turkey.
Transgender surgery and sterilisation in Europe
Required for gender reassignment in 24 countries, including Turkey, Russia, France, and Switzerland
Not required in 15 countries, including the UK, Sweden, Italy and Spain
Gender reassignment surgery not considered legal in Hungary, Cyprus, Moldova and Albania
Hungary and Albania do not recognise transgender in law
Source: Transgender Europe's Trans Rights Europe Index
The struggle to stay alive in Turkey where trans individuals are pushed to the margins or cities, as well as the struggle to prove their existence, comes to life in a sentence that is repeated, emphasised, written at every demonstration: "Don't be silent, shout, trans exist."
For trans individuals, the struggles for social acceptance and to stay alive are one. Legal processes and democratic wins may determine when they will be equal citizens in Turkey and other countries, but trans, LGBTI individuals and their allies hope that Hande Kader will be a turning point in the response to trans murders.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you really think someone identifying as the gender that feels natural to them is comparable to someone having delusions of being a fictional character?

That is an absurd false parallel.

It's an ovverreaction, pure hyperbole.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
My word this is a thread full of "first world angst"

I wonder how the third world views this dilemma (imagined or actual) :idea:

Who cares what they think? They're still killing gays in much of the developing world.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
23,872
Location
LBK
They don't have to have the same 'thinking' as first world countries.

I never said they did. A lot of them still kill LGBT people, either through the judicial system or by lynching.
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,627
They don't have to have the same 'thinking' as first world countries.

I think that was the point. We are positively tolerant in the West. Just another reason why I don't really like religion: an outdated, intolerant throwback to a less civilized era, and yet so many people still take it seriously.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
Agreed. I think if you're going to have sex with someone you ought to know some basic facts.

You agree, then, to the very same point I made immediately above. By 'involvement of others' I was talking about intimate relationships, not using the bog.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you really think someone identifying as the gender that feels natural to them is comparable to someone having delusions of being a fictional character?

That is an absurd false parallel.

There are some very unique people out there!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top