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George Floyd Death and the Wider Consequences

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Tetchytyke

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If they have been taken off the air or streaming services due to political interventions/opinions/pressure then yes they have been banned.

"Commercial company makes commercial decision not to offer something on its commercial platform for commercial reasons" means "banned"? Really?

Little Britain is no more "banned" than Cherry Pepsi Max is because ShopRite don't stock it.

If you think Netflix have got it wrong, cancel your subscription.

FWIW I'm conflicted. Come Fly With Me in particular is really problematic with its portrayal of race, especially Blessing the coffee stall employee. But everyone gets zingers thrown at them in that show. Little Britain doesn't seem to be quite so equal opportunities with the mocking, though I do think that's mostly because Lucas and Walliams got lazy.

It was interesting to hear Leigh Francis' more recent take on Bo'Selecta.
 
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Tetchytyke

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They all would jump off a cliff like the lemmings they are. Gen Z can be the worst for this, hence my fear of having children as they absorb things like sponges therefore easier to manipulate.

All generations have the same sorts of people. You've pretty much regurgitated a Richard Littlejohn editorial here. I'd not say baby boomers are any more questioning or discerning than younger people.

If we are supposed to accept & embrace diversity, but a SJW control freak will flip out if a curious white person dabbles with a different culture, getting upset about “cultural appropriation”?

What is a SJW control freak? And why are you choosing to use such terms? You didn't invent the term, so are you being manipulated?

"Cultural appropriation" doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. It doesn't mean "trying something", it doesn't mean "touristing". It means taking another culture or tradition and repackaging it as your own and whitewashing the origins. If you want to go to Malaysia and eat Malaysian food, even in a tourist trap, fill your boots.
 

Butts

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Henry Dundas 1st Viscount Melville has stood proud in St Andrews Square in Edinburgh for nearly 200 years and is now under threat due to his connections with slavery. Indeed he is credited with delaying the abolition of slavery by some 15 years.

Some on here are going to love the fact he was a Tory and impeached in 1806 for misappropriation of public funds - swerved the charge though !!

It is a very tall and solid Statue and I think doing a "Colson" on him will be impossible.

How far back is this "moral crusade" going to go ?

Will it eventually condemn the actions of African Chiefs who sold their own people into slavery and the heavy involvement of Arabs in the trade ?
 

Ashley Hill

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It's a shame that this amount of energy isn't being used to tackle modern slavery rather than trying to change something from 200/300 years ago.
 

3141

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It's a shame that this amount of energy isn't being used to tackle modern slavery rather than trying to change something from 200/300 years ago.

Yes. A lot of the people wanting statues to be removed will be wearing clothes produced by people working long hours in poor conditions. They might focus their attention on trying to make the world a slightly better place. Campaigning to have a statue removed may make some people feel good but it's futile. As someone said earlier on this thread, do we try to erase records of everyone everywhere who did things we'd disapprove of today? Well, it's easier than trying to do something about the things actually happening today.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The US police have killed 370 white people but 393 Black and Hispanic people in 2019.

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

So people "may well be aware" of it, but they seem to be aware of something that simply isn't true on raw numbers, never mind numbers adjusted for the relative population demographics (the US police shoot 30 black people per million and 23 Hispanic people per million, but only 12 white people per million).

So given black people are nearly three times more likely to be shot dead by the police than a white person, it's surely fair to bring race into it?

Yeah, but 2019 seems to have been an anomaly. Looking at the graph, in 2017, 2018 and 2020 to date, the numbers of white people shot exceeds the numbers of black + hispanic + other. I'm ignoring 'unknown' here. Probably can't do much else without more info about why those people are 'unknown'. I also found this link which reports that between 2009 and 2012, 52% of victims were white. So, unless the 'unknowns' turn up something odd, it does seem true that US police mostly kill white people.

Now, obviously you are correct that a full picture would need to take into account demographics. Unfortunately that doesn't help so much because the full picture would also need to take into account the propensity to commit violent crime by different ethnic groups - and I'd guess that data is likely to be harder to get hold of. Even without that data, it's going to be true that, pro rata, more blacks are being killed per population than whites. There's not enough data there to show how much that is because of racism and how much it's because of things like greater gang violence and other crime in cities (where blacks are more likely to live).

Of course it's hard for the right-wing #alllivesmatter lot to simultaneously argue that the US police are not trigger-happy violent thugs *and* that they needlessly shoot white people too. So they don't seem to try. I don't see many #alllivesmatter fans decry police brutality in all its forms, instead choosing to focus on whether Floyd was a criminal.

From what I've seen on Twitter, quite a few of those using #alllivesmatter are decrying police brutality in all its forms. Obviously quite hard to get much of a picture beyond anecdotally looking at some tweets though - as it's probably a bit unpredictable which tweets Twitter's algorithm is going to show you.

The graph we're discussing that Tetchytyke linked to:

statistic_id585152_people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race-2017-2020.png
 
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najaB

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Will it eventually condemn the actions of African Chiefs who sold their own people into slavery and the heavy involvement of Arabs in the trade ?
That's not entirely fair on the tribal leaders since slavery as it existed in Africa at the time was much closer to what we would call indentured servitude, and was quite commonly used as a punishment. The spouses and children of an enslaved person were not, generally speaking, enslaved themselves and it was possible for an enslaved person to earn their freedom. Since very few (if any) people came back from the Americas they literally didn't know what they were sending their kinsmen to on the other side of the world.
 

Butts

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That's not entirely fair on the tribal leaders since slavery as it existed in Africa at the time was much closer to what we would call indentured servitude, and was quite commonly used as a punishment. The spouses and children of an enslaved person were not, generally speaking, enslaved themselves and it was possible for an enslaved person to earn their freedom. Since very few (if any) people came back from the Americas they literally didn't know what they were sending their kinsmen to on the other side of the world.

And Arab involvement in the slave trade ?
 

C J Snarzell

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I do think this whole fiasco is starting to get ridiculous and political correctness is going worse!!!

The BBC North West Tonight ran an article last night stating that Lancaster University was changing the name of one it's buildings because it was named after Sir William Gladstone who built some of his wealth on slave trading.

The argument from many of the anti-facist people who spoke, is that historical figures who treated black people so badly should never be glorified and honoured. There is also talk about removing statues of Winston Churchill & Robert Peel who created the British police force because of their links to facism. These people were important leaders who brought massive positive changes to the way of life in this country.

Are we seriously going to remove all our history on the basis that it potentially offends black/Asian people? Is it not just as important that we retain things like this to ensure our history is not forgetton and it proves how much life has changed for the better in the last few centuries.

I do think the tide has turned on racism in the last few decades. The likes of Tommy Robinson are merely treated as idiots by anyone with an ounce of common sense.

The problem with George Floyd's death is that many individuals in our society who are anti-establishment will use this as an excuse to go on the rampage. This is not anything to do with racism - this is just dregs of society who actively commit crime to defy the police and the court system. The riots in 2011 sparked off by Mark Duggan's death were merely thieves & looters filling their pockets and tormenting the police.

CJ
 
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deltic

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Yeah, but 2019 seems to have been an anomaly. Looking at the graph, in 2017, 2018 and 2020 to date, the numbers of white people shot exceeds the numbers of black + hispanic + other. I'm ignoring 'unknown' here. Probably can't do much else without more info about why those people are 'unknown'. I also found this link which reports that between 2009 and 2012, 52% of victims were white. So, unless the 'unknowns' turn up something odd, it does seem true that US police mostly kill white people.

Now, obviously you are correct that a full picture would need to take into account demographics. Unfortunately that doesn't help so much because the full picture would also need to take into account the propensity to commit violent crime by different ethnic groups - and I'd guess that data is likely to be harder to get hold of. Even without that data, it's going to be true that, pro rata, more blacks are being killed per population than whites. There's not enough data there to show how much that is because of racism and how much it's because of things like greater gang violence and other crime in cities (where blacks are more likely to live).



From what I've seen on Twitter, quite a few of those using #alllivesmatter are decrying police brutality in all its forms. Obviously quite hard to get much of a picture beyond anecdotally looking at some tweets though - as it's probably a bit unpredictable which tweets Twitter's algorithm is going to show you.

The graph we're discussing that Tetchytyke linked to:

View attachment 79346

It can be dangerous to take raw numbers without putting them into context as this academic article shows. Black people who were killed by police were less likely to be armed than white people and white people were more likely to be committing "suicide by cop".

Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims. Fatality rates among military veterans/active duty service members were 1.4 times greater than among their civilian counterparts. Four case subtypes were examined based on themes that emerged in incident narratives: about 22% of cases were mental health related; 18% were suspected “suicide by cop” incidents, with white victims more likely than black or Hispanic victims to die in these circumstances; 14% involved intimate partner violence; and about 6% were unintentional deaths due to LE action. Another 53% of cases were unclassified and did not fall into a coded subtype

Full paper can be found at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/
 

najaB

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Are we seriously going to remove all our history on the basis that it potentially offends black/Asian people? Is it not just as important that we retain things like this to ensure our history is not forgetton and it proves how much life has changed for the better in the last few centuries.
It's not about forgetting or erasing our history, because it is what it is and cannot be changed. But the very point that you make - that life has changed for the better - is good reason to ask ourselves if the people who past generations hailed as heroes or held up as examples of the best of us are still worthy of that honour today. If they aren't then go ahead and rename the building or move their statue.

To use one of examples that you mentioned, Winston Churchill: he was a racist, misogynist *******, but he also was a great and inspiring leader through some of this country's darkest days. So, on balance, he is worthy of a statue and being held up as a hero. Contrast that to Edward Colston: he is a man who got rich selling human beings and gave some of that money to the city he lived in. Mmm.... maybe no statue for him, the history book will be good enough.
 

WelshBluebird

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The BBC North West Tonight ran an article last night stating that Lancaster University was changing the name of one it's buildings because it was named after Sir William Gladstone who built some of his wealth on slave trading.

Surely that is the universities choice to do so?

The argument from many of the anti-facist people who spoke, is that historical figures who treated black people so badly should never be glorified and honoured. There is also talk about removing statues of Winston Churchill & Robert Peel who created the British police force because of their links to facism. These people were important leaders who brought massive positive changes to the way of life in this country.

Are we seriously going to remove all our history on the basis that it potentially offends black/Asian people? Is it not just as important that we retain things like this to ensure our history is not forgetton and it proves how much life has changed for the better in the last few centuries.

But nobody is removing history.
Statues and monuments will be put in museums. That history still exists and will be there for people to learn about and learn from.

As for street and building names - I am not convinced you need a street or building named after you for people to be able to to learn your place in history!
Such a legacy is an honour. And if we feel those people should no longer be honoured, then it is right we decide if we still want to keep that honour (be it a statue, or the naming of something) around in our society.

And if you really want to talk about history and making sure it is not forgotten, how about we actually teach people history then? That Churchill for example was a much more complex man than "we shall never surrender" - teach about the Tonypandy riots (both the fact he sent in the Army, and the fact he restrained them from the full force that some people wanted them used for) and his pretty vile views on some of the world, alongside the fact that yes, he was a great leader who helped us win the war. Teach that Colston was a slave trader who made his money from selling other human beings, from kidnap and torture, and then that he gave some of that that money back to the city of Bristol. Teach the entire history, not just the sanitised whitewashed version that too many people only see.

I do find it somewhat ironic that some people who are now complaining about "erasing history" are exactly the same people who get upset when some of our uncomfortable history is taught. I am not talking about you, but one of the local Bristol Tory councillers is a great example. Complaining about the statue being removed because of the history but yet he also complained when the council wanted to put a second plaque on the statue that specifically discussed Colston's involvement in the slave trade (the first plaque, and the only one on the statue until it was toppled made no mention of the slave trade). Apparently it was "unfair".
 
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Tetchytyke

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Even without that data, it's going to be true that, pro rata, more blacks are being killed per population than whites. There's not enough data there to show how much that is because of racism and how much it's because of things like greater gang violence and other crime in cities (where blacks are more likely to live).

Definitely. There are many factors in play and overt racism is only one of them- but it is one of them.

The police are more likely to escalate things if they feel threatened, and repeated studies have shown that many people will perceive a black person as more of a threat than a white person, everything else being equal. So if the police are already more on edge simply because the person is black, it isn't a surprise they're quicker to reach for their gun, with inevitable consequences. Some of that is simple racial bias, both conscious and unconscious, but as you say, the high crime rates in some areas will have an effect too. If you're always dealing with violent black people you end up with confirmation bias.

But the crime rate, and the types of crime committed in a community, is a product of socioeconomic factors too, one of which is overt and covert racism.

Unravelling it all isn't easy. I don't have answers. I just think we should call it what it is: racism. Trying to call it anything else just glosses over it and dismisses it as "one of those things".

Are we seriously going to remove all our history on the basis that it potentially offends black/Asian people? Is it not just as important that we retain things like this to ensure our history is not forgetton

Statues are there to celebrate important people in a community. That is the whole purpose of them. There is a reason why dictators put up statues of themselves when they come to power and why, when dictators are toppled, their statues are toppled too.

Their only historical merit is to show which people were considered important in years gone by. The important people were usually the rich people and, in seafaring cities, that usually means slave traders. Bear in mind Colston's statue was put up 150 years after he died by the Society of Merchant Venturers, the shady guild that controlled much of Bristol.

Statues of people like Colston or Rhodes belong in a museum, they are no longer relevant or important to the community. They are part of the city's history, yes, but so is the hangman's gallows and you don't see them left in the town centre.

Churchill is more nuanced. He wasn't a non-entity like Colston or even Cecil Rhodes. His attitude to other races was problematic, even for the time. He was a bit of a nasty piece of work. That edge made him such a great war leader- you want a nasty piece of work leading you through a war, rather than a wet blanket- but is also why he was comprehensively beaten in the general election after the war. No, I wouldn't remove his statue, because he led the country through a brutal war.

Generally, though, I see no issue with re-appraising who is important to a community and refreshing statues every now and again.

The only people in Bristol who seemed to want to keep the statue of Colston were the Society of Merchant Venturers, who seem to have an awful lot of influence in a supposedly democratic city. They even objected to a plaque explaining how many kids Colston had sold.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Surely that is the universities choice to do so?

It is indeed their choice. I do though worry that they are making their choice for reasons of wanting to appeal to the mob rather than for any well thought through reasons.

But nobody is removing history.

You're making it less accessible though. And you're to some extent destroying part of our culture: I wouldn't underestimate the extent to which things like statues that have been in place for a long time give people a sense of attachment to our shared history, and that sense of continuity and tradition that is actually pretty important to a very large number of people. By removing those statues, you're potentially destroying that and hurting a lot of people - basically in order to satisfy the demands of another group of people (and to be fair who feel hurt by having those statues there).

To my mind, a far better solution in most cases would be to make sure that the text on the plinths acknowledges both the good and the bad that people do, and perhaps in some cases to add additional statues representing those groups who have been forgotten or hurt in the past.

Statues and monuments will be put in museums. That history still exists and will be there for people to learn about and learn from.
As for street and building names - I am not convinced you need a street or building named after you for people to be able to to learn your place in history!

No, you don't need that, but by the same token, once those names are there and have been in place for decades, they have themselves become part of the history and culture of that town. Renaming them because in today's political culture we no longer like the origins of the name feels to me very akin to many authoritarian states (Petrograd - Leningrad - Petrograd kind of thing). There's also a practical problem of all the confusion with addresses and finding your way around that you cause if you rename places. I really don't think we should be going there. Again, a better solution would be to look for the names of historical figures/events from those communities that feel forgotten when naming new streets and buildings, so you have more balance - or even putting decisions about naming new streets in some areas completely in the hands of ethnic minority communities, but without changing the names of existing streets.

And if you really want to talk about history and making sure it is not forgotten, how about we actually teach people history then? That Churchill for example was a much more complex man than "we shall never surrender" - teach about the Tonypandy riots and his pretty vile views on some of the world, alongside the fact that yes, he was a great leader who helped us win the war. Teach that Colston was a slave trader who made his money from selling other human beings, from kidnap and torture, and then that he gave some of that that money back to the city of Bristol. Teach the entire history, not just the sanitised whitewashed version that too many people only see.

I agree, we need to look at what history is being taught to ensure it is balanced. There is obviously a practical problem that there is so much history that it's impossible to teach more than a tiny fraction of it in schools - or even on specialised University courses. Pointing out Churchill's views alongside the history of the 2nd World War (And WWII surely is significant enough that it has to be on almost any British History syllabus) seems a good balance. I wouldn't have thought that Edward Colston's contribution to history was significant enough to even be mentioned at all in a typical syllabus (unless it's specifically, locally, in Bristol). There is though some irony that, even as you call for teaching the entire history, in that same paragraph you're arguably presenting a pretty one-sided view: If you are going to teach Colston at all, then yes, teach about the bad things - the slavery - but also teach about the historical context in which death was completely commonplace to everyone, and most people at the time wouldn't have seen much wrong with slavery - otherwise you're giving a distorted impression by teaching people to measure someone from what would have been a totally different culture by today's standards.
 
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Tetchytyke

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To my mind, a far better solution in most cases would be to make sure that the text on the plinths acknowledges both the good and the bad that people do, and perhaps in some cases to add additional statues representing tho

Perhaps, although the people of Bristol have been trying for 20 years to get the Colston statue changed. The Society of Merchant Venturers always objected- successfully, too. They even prevented a plaque going up saying how many people Colston shipped into slavery.

It's precious wonder people got fed up of playing nicely when their democratic voice was continually overruled by a shady guild of rich businessmen.

There's also a practical aspect. These statues have prime location, so any new statues will inevitably be in a less ideal spot. I'm not sure having a slave trade front and centre and a black campaigner tucked down a side street is such a good look.

most people at the time wouldn't have seen much wrong with slavery

I'm not sure that was true, even in the 1780s. There was already a strong anti-slavery argument in the non-conformist religious movements, and William Wilberforce was well into his stride by the end of the 1780s.

Also remember that the statue was put up by the Society of Merchant Venturers in 1890, not 1790.

Renaming them because in today's political culture we no longer like the origins of the name

Renaming streets to account for modern sensibilities is not a new thing. (Warning: Wikipedia link to some fruity language)
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Perhaps, although the people of Bristol have been trying for 20 years to get the Colston statue changed. The Society of Merchant Venturers always objected- successfully, too. They even prevented a plaque going up saying how many people Colston shipped into slavery.

Some people in Bristol have been trying. Last time I checked Wikipedia was reporting that a poll a couple of years ago showed that a narrow majority wanted the statue to stay. (Possibly opinion has changed now).

I have to admit I don't understand why the Merchant Venturers would object to getting the plaque changed. I can well understand people wanting the statue to stay up for historical/cultural reasons, but making the plaque more balanced seems an obvious thing to do . And maybe if the Merchant Venturers hadn't objected to that, the statue would still be there?


There's also a practical aspect. These statues have prime location, so any new statues will inevitably be in a less ideal spot. I'm not sure having a slave trade front and centre and a black campaigner tucked down a side street is such a good look.

I'm sure that's not hard to solve in most places. Two statues next to each other. Move the existing statue to make way for an additional one. Put the new statue in a prime location in a new park or somewhere that doesn't currently have a statue. And s on.

I'm not sure that was true, even in the 1780s. There was already a strong anti-slavery argument in the non-conformist religious movements, and William Wilberforce was well into his stride by the end of the 1780s.

Indeed it was not true in the 1780s. However, Colston didn't live in the 1780s. 1680s would be more accurate - he was born in 1636 - a few years before the English Civil War.
 

WelshBluebird

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It is indeed their choice. I do though worry that they are making their choice for reasons of wanting to appeal to the mob rather than for any well thought through reasons.

It is a university building name.
To be blunt - what the building is called pretty much doesn't matter in the wider historical context unless it is a historic building that has long had that name.

I can't actually find a news article about Lancaster uni, but it looks like Liverpool uni is renaming a student halls block. Not really a historic building there!

You're making it less accessible though.

I mean, the Colston statue is going to be put in a museum that is free to visit and is about a 5 minute walk from where the statue stood.
It will be put in context of the wider history of who he was and why he was important - both good and bad.
The same museum has also said it will put on display some of the signs and banners that were left by the plinth after the statue was removed.
The whole episode has started discussions that didn't happen before. It has educated people who hadn't even heard of him, even some people in Bristol who before would have just walked passed the statue not paying attention because they didn't know who he was.

To me at least, that makes a much bigger statement in terms of history and education and accessibility to the wider context of that history than a statue sitting in the city centre than many people didn't pay much attention to that didn't even mention most of the history of the man on the plaque next to it.

And you're to some extent destroying part of our culture: I wouldn't underestimate the extent to which things like statues that have been in place for a long time give people a sense of attachment to our shared history, and that sense of continuity and tradition that is actually pretty important to a very large number of people. By removing those statues, you're potentially destroying that and hurting a lot of people - basically in order to satisfy the demands of another group of people (and to be fair who feel hurt by having those statues there).

Which is why the conversation has to be on a case by case basis.
I am not advocating for the mass removal of problematic statues.
In the Bristol case - it very much was not in place for a long time really, an did not give anybody a "sense of attachment to our shared history" etc etc.

To my mind, a far better solution in most cases would be to make sure that the text on the plinths acknowledges both the good and the bad that people do, and perhaps in some cases to add additional statues representing those groups who have been forgotten or hurt in the past.

Which is great when that happens. The sad reality is that has not happened, and in the Colston case specifically, was resisted for many years by those with vested interests and some of those who now claim to be worried about erasing history.

No, you don't need that, but by the same token, once those names are there and have been in place for decades, they have themselves become part of the history and culture of that town. Renaming them because in today's political culture we no longer like the origins of the name feels to me very akin to many authoritarian states (Petrograd - Leningrad - Petrograd kind of thing). There's also a practical problem of all the confusion with addresses and finding your way around that you cause if you rename places. I really don't think we should be going there. Again, a better solution would be to look for the names of historical figures/events from those communities that feel forgotten when naming new streets and buildings, so you have more balance - or even putting decisions about naming new streets in some areas completely in the hands of ethnic minority communities, but without changing the names of existing streets.

In general, I agree, although places and streets etc have been renamed loads throughout history. But again it is a difficult and uncomfortable conversation. One that many people wanted to be swept under the carpet and not had. Certainly I don't think we should rename every street that could potentially be offensive. But take Colston Road in Bristol - it is in an area that is predominately BAME in terms of population and in the last few days residents of the street have started a discussion of having suggestions for other potential names for the street. Should we tell them they can't do that?

I agree, we need to look at what history is being taught to ensure it is balanced. There is obviously a practical problem that there is so much history that it's impossible to teach more than a tiny fraction of it in schools - or even on specialised University courses. Pointing out Churchill's views alongside the history of the 2nd World War (And WWII surely is significant enough that it has to be on almost any British History syllabus) seems a good balance. I wouldn't have thought that Edward Colston's contribution to history was significant enough to even be mentioned at all in a typical syllabus (unless it's specifically, locally, in Bristol). There is though some irony that, even as you call for teaching the entire history, in that same paragraph you're arguably presenting a pretty one-sided view: If you are going to teach Colston at all, then yes, teach about the bad things - the slavery - but also teach about the historical context in which death was completely commonplace to everyone, and most people at the time wouldn't have seen much wrong with slavery - otherwise you're giving a distorted impression by teaching people to measure someone from what would have been a totally different culture by today's standards.

I was just trying to present an alternative view to what is usually taught. I wasn't saying just teach what I was mentioning.
We do need a much wider teaching of our own history, I think we really need to be prepared to have uncomfortable discussions about our history, which for a long time we haven't been prepared to do so. And I'm not just talking about slavery or things related to racism either. How about the history of workers rights (we did the "industrial revolution" quite a few times from what I remember, but not really mentioning the various changes in workers rights and how they were brought about during that time), the right to vote (we briefly covered the suffragettes when I was in school, but not the wider history of democracy and voting) etc? Of course there is the practical problem as you have said, but at least from what I remember from school, we covered the same topics several times throughout the years - surely there is room for some change there?

Some people in Bristol have been trying. Last time I checked Wikipedia was reporting that a poll a couple of years ago showed that a narrow majority wanted the statue to stay. (Possibly opinion has changed now).

It was a vote run by a local newspaper that didn't get much attention at the time. Hardly representative.

I have to admit I don't understand why the Merchant Venturers would object to getting the plaque changed. I can well understand people wanting the statue to stay up for historical/cultural reasons, but making the plaque more balanced seems an obvious thing to do . And maybe if the Merchant Venturers hadn't objected to that, the statue would still be there?

It wasn't just the Merchant Venturers. A local Tory Councillor also was upset and said that having a plaque with that wording was somehow unfair. He is also the same idiot who adopted a golliwog as his mascot and said he would boycott Colston hall (a music venue) if it changed it name. So I suspect he is just a plain racist tbh.
As for would it still be there? I think you need a time machine or some alternative reality to find out. But certainly the inaction partly caused by the Merchant Venturers and the Tory counciller (amongst others, it isn't just their fault!) played a part in people targeting the statue.
 
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Tetchytyke

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And maybe if the Merchant Venturers hadn't objected to that, the statue would still be there?

It's obviously impossible to know, but I think I'd agree that a compromise five years ago would have taken the heat out of the situation. Without the anger, it's less likely that it'd have been tipped into the Avon. I see a similar situation happening with statutes of Cecil Rhodes, tbh.

As for takings things on a case-by-case basis, I agreed with Netflix having issues with Little Britain and especially Come Fly With Me. But now they've also taken The League of Gentlemen off because of Papa Lazarou, which seems a bit of an overreaction and also seems to miss the whole point of the character.

 

najaB

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To my mind, a far better solution in most cases would be to make sure that the text on the plinths acknowledges both the good and the bad that people do, and perhaps in some cases to add additional statues representing those groups who have been forgotten or hurt in the past.
Personally, I would have a rule that says all statues should be voted on every 50 years or so to see if the majority of people still want them to be there or not.
 

Butts

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Personally, I would have a rule that says all statues should be voted on every 50 years or so to see if the majority of people still want them to be there or not.

Don't fancy your chances with the turnout being in double figures for that one.
 

najaB

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Don't fancy your chances with the turnout being in double figures for that one.
That's fine then, statues come down automatically after 50 years. Seems fair enough if people can't be bothered enough about them to vote to keep them.
 

High Dyke

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And Arab involvement in the slave trade ?
It wasn't something I was really aware of. However, that also brings it back to a comment earlier regarding history education in schools. Perhaps the educational bodies need to assess what is and isn't being taught these days. Just out of interest I googled the subject matter and found this article.
The Arab slave trade is a fact of history, and anti-black racism in the region is something that must be addressed.
Now I don't pretend to understand the politics of all of this. The fact remains a young man tragically lost his life. That is unacceptable! Those protesting have a point about the cultural injustices meted out over time by (for want of a better phrase) 'colonial powers', or heavy handed police tactics.

Someone else questioned how far back do we go to seemingly make amends for the injustices of the past. Are we in danger of giving the impression of pandering to appease the few, but failing to address the genuine concerns of many?

It was somewhat ironic the other day. I was discussing the subject with a work colleague, he is of Polish ancestry. He expressed some strong views about black people - opinions I disagree with. Yet, a few months ago, he was quick to defend immigrants from eastern Europe when he was discussing, with a different work colleague - who has strong 'nationalist' views - about people from those countries. Whilst the two conversations were, in some respects different, they also had some corresponding context in the subject matter.
 

Bantamzen

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It's obviously impossible to know, but I think I'd agree that a compromise five years ago would have taken the heat out of the situation. Without the anger, it's less likely that it'd have been tipped into the Avon. I see a similar situation happening with statutes of Cecil Rhodes, tbh.

As for takings things on a case-by-case basis, I agreed with Netflix having issues with Little Britain and especially Come Fly With Me. But now they've also taken The League of Gentlemen off because of Papa Lazarou, which seems a bit of an overreaction and also seems to miss the whole point of the character.


What really irks me about the removal of shows like Come Fly With Me is that there has been no mention of other characters such as Omar Baba, the Middle Eastern owner, or Taaj the Indian / Pakistani worker. So its a real exercise in virtue signalling.

Incidentally, most of my Asian friends and co-workers loved Taaj's character, and would often lampoon him because he sounded like he was straight off the streets of Bradford. And before anyone gets upset, I grew up on the multi-cultural streets of Bradford, and loved it too!
 

Tetchytyke

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What really irks me about the removal of shows like Come Fly With Me is that there has been no mention of other characters such as Omar Baba, the Middle Eastern owner, or Taaj the Indian / Pakistani worker. So its a real exercise in virtue signalling.

That's not quite true, plenty have complained about Taaj too, although Taaj's character was generally shown more positively. But Blessing was the most problematic- there was absolutely no need for that character to be black, and by making her black they played on plenty of racist tropes.

Omar Baba was based very closely on Stelios?
 
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