German Rail in decline ?

[Mag_seven]

Just gentle reminder that discussion in this thread should be confined to the topic of German rail in decline.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as rail and the Paris Olympics then please start a new thread.

thanks

 

[duesselmartin]

To be fair, the Entenfang shuttle didn’t exactly serve much population and the Ruhrort line’s traffic will have been hit hard by changing employment patterns and the improvements to the DVG tram/ Stadtbahn network. Much of the VRR s-bahn infrastructure (stations etc) dates from the 1970s / early 80s so is getting quite long in the tooth and it’s certainly an area that suffered from the diversion of funds to Aufbau Ost.

while Wedau station was inconvient, I must disagree on the Ruhrort shuttle.
It is the only real connection towards Oberhausen if you wish to avoid the detour via Oberhausen.
What improvement to DVG services? Every second 901 tram is still cancelled. Buses run at best every 30 minutes are also unreliable. There are no duplicate routes to the railway.
The reason why the Ruhrort shuttle is suffering is its lack of reliability. Also the timetable was halfed a few years ago resulting that more than 50% of passengers wondered off.
Duisburg is an example where only those without a car uses public transport.

 

[The exile]

while Wedau station was inconvient, I must disagree on the Ruhrort shuttle.
It is the only real connection towards Oberhausen if you wish to avoid the detour via Oberhausen.
What improvement to DVG services? Every second 901 tram is still cancelled. Buses run at best every 30 minutes are also unreliable. There are no duplicate routes to the railway.
The reason why the Ruhrort shuttle is suffering is its lack of reliability. Also the timetable was halfed a few years ago resulting that more than 50% of passengers wondered off.
Duisburg is an example where only those without a car uses public transport.

Ok - my “local knowledge” is now about 25 years old (and having been Essen-based not that local!). I suppose it depends to what extent the natural traffic flow in Meiderich / Beeck is to Oberhausen rather than Duisburg. The U79/ 903 tunnel will have certainly made access to Duisburg centre quicker and easier than it once was. I certainly never remember having much company on the occasions I used Ruhrort trains - but the last time was 2008, so much may have changed.

 

[duesselmartin]

Ok - my “local knowledge” is now about 25 years old (and having been Essen-based not that local!). I suppose it depends to what extent the natural traffic flow in Meiderich / Beeck is to Oberhausen rather than Duisburg. The U79/ 903 tunnel will have certainly made access to Duisburg centre quicker and easier than it once was. I certainly never remember having much company on the occasions I used Ruhrort trains - but the last time was 2008, so much may have changed.

the tunnel certainly has been a blessing for people from Meiderich to the city centre. Ruhrort is still a good distance as the tram is not that fast (apart from reliability issues).
Oberhausen Neue Mitte has become a major magnet with the large shopping centre CentrO and the night life facilities in that area.

Personally I would like to see the Ruhrort Branch converted to a Stadtbahn to raise efficiency and frequency but I doubt that will ever happen.

 

[gazzak]

Myself and 3 friends spent 8 days in Germany for the first week of Euro 24. We had tickets to 2 matches and the rest of the time we spent travelling around Germany as tourists. We were based near Cologne and had a weeks rail pass for all German transport.
I have to say I was bitterly disappointed with the rail system. Every train was later than advertised, including every ICE service, with some cancelled. Yes we managed to get around, usually on the earlier train than we expected to get because it had also been delayed. We still had a wonderful time but I've posted a few of the transport highlights below.

The England match against Serbia in Gelsenkirchen was easy to get to as we went from the fan park on organised buses. Getting home again was appalling. Gelsenkirchen HBF is about 6km from the stadium and serviced by trams. When we arrived at the tram stop it was already 8-10 deep and every tram that came in was already packed. Eventually we ended up going in the opposite direction to squeeze onto a tram coming back again, (I can only say how bad it was, but if the temperature was higher it would have been very dangerous).
We had booked the 00:50 ICE from Gelsenkirchen to Cologne to give us nearly 2 hours to get back to the station and we weren't even close. When we arrived at the station it was carnage. Fans everywhere with no trains. Our 00:50 service was almost 2 hours behind schedule. Eventually they laid on a special train to Cologne which must have been from the 60's, such was the state of it, but a train is a train and we were happy to be out of there. We arrived back at our hotel at 4 am, others arrived back much later.

One free day we decided to spend the day in Siegburg which is one stop from Troisdorf. No trains showing on the station departures board. We decided to do a top gear style race, me on an electric scooter, two taking the bus and one poor soul would wait for the train.
1st Electric Scooter
2nd Bus
3rd Train

On another free day we decided to visit the Bayern Munich stadium which is great for me, 4 hours on an ICE train flying through the countryside to Munich. The train going there was late, (obviously), but coming back was the fun part.
Our 6pm departure was late but the departure boards placed it on different platforms. Everyone was confused. Eventually an ICE representitive, (they seem to have these on every platform and they are great), told us that the train on platform 7 was going to be our train, but the boards on the platform said another train. They insisted it was correct and would be changed very soon at the new departure time of 7pm.
At the new departure time everyone had worked out what was going on and as soon as it was announced there was a charge to board the train and get our reserved seats, but there were no reservations showing, so we just sat at a table in 1st class, (yes we had 1st class passes), and watched as people ran up and down the train looking for their reservations. Nobody bothered us so we stayed there all the way back to Cologne.

Overall every train where we had paid for reserved seats was very late or we took a different train. Not once did we use our reserved seats and arrive within 45 minutes of the advertised time on the correct train. I fully intended to request a refund for each journey booked but the process is so ridiculous as to not be worth the effort. If anyone knows of an online way of requesting refunds I'd be happy to hear it.

We loved Germany but the trains were bad.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Myself and 3 friends spent 8 days in Germany for the first week of Euro 24. We had tickets to 2 matches and the rest of the time we spent travelling around Germany as tourists. We were based near Cologne and had a weeks rail pass for all German transport.
I have to say I was bitterly disappointed with the rail system. Every train was later than advertised, including every ICE service, with some cancelled. Yes we managed to get around, usually on the earlier train than we expected to get because it had also been delayed. We still had a wonderful time but I've posted a few of the transport highlights below.

The England match against Serbia in Gelsenkirchen was easy to get to as we went from the fan park on organised buses. Getting home again was appalling. Gelsenkirchen HBF is about 6km from the stadium and serviced by trams. When we arrived at the tram stop it was already 8-10 deep and every tram that came in was already packed. Eventually we ended up going in the opposite direction to squeeze onto a tram coming back again, (I can only say how bad it was, but if the temperature was higher it would have been very dangerous).
We had booked the 00:50 ICE from Gelsenkirchen to Cologne to give us nearly 2 hours to get back to the station and we weren't even close. When we arrived at the station it was carnage. Fans everywhere with no trains. Our 00:50 service was almost 2 hours behind schedule. Eventually they laid on a special train to Cologne which must have been from the 60's, such was the state of it, but a train is a train and we were happy to be out of there. We arrived back at our hotel at 4 am, others arrived back much later.

One free day we decided to spend the day in Siegburg which is one stop from Troisdorf. No trains showing on the station departures board. We decided to do a top gear style race, me on an electric scooter, two taking the bus and one poor soul would wait for the train.
1st Electric Scooter
2nd Bus
3rd Train

On another free day we decided to visit the Bayern Munich stadium which is great for me, 4 hours on an ICE train flying through the countryside to Munich. The train going there was late, (obviously), but coming back was the fun part.
Our 6pm departure was late but the departure boards placed it on different platforms. Everyone was confused. Eventually an ICE representitive, (they seem to have these on every platform and they are great), told us that the train on platform 7 was going to be our train, but the boards on the platform said another train. They insisted it was correct and would be changed very soon at the new departure time of 7pm.
At the new departure time everyone had worked out what was going on and as soon as it was announced there was a charge to board the train and get our reserved seats, but there were no reservations showing, so we just sat at a table in 1st class, (yes we had 1st class passes), and watched as people ran up and down the train looking for their reservations. Nobody bothered us so we stayed there all the way back to Cologne.

Overall every train where we had paid for reserved seats was very late or we took a different train. Not once did we use our reserved seats and arrive within 45 minutes of the advertised time on the correct train. I fully intended to request a refund for each journey booked but the process is so ridiculous as to not be worth the effort. If anyone knows of an online way of requesting refunds I'd be happy to hear it.

We loved Germany but the trains were bad.

In fairness the 2nd game in Gels was much better. Shuttle bus straight back to Essen Hbf.

 

[rvdborgt]

We were based near Cologne and had a weeks rail pass for all German transport.

I fully intended to request a refund for each journey booked but the process is so ridiculous as to not be worth the effort. If anyone knows of an online way of requesting refunds I'd be happy to hear it.

What pass exactly did you have (one of the special Interrail passes?) and where did you buy it? That determines where and how you can get compensation.

 

[gazzak]

What pass exactly did you have (one of the special Interrail passes?) and where did you buy it? That determines where and how you can get compensation.

We each had an Interrail German Rail Pass, Flexi Pass where you can use 7 days within 1 month. 1st Class Adults. We purchased them online from https://bahn.eurail.com/en/one-country-pass/german-rail-pass
Cost was roughly £300 each.

In fairness the 2nd game in Gels was much better. Shuttle bus straight back to Essen Hbf.

That would have been perfect. Well at least they learned from our pain!

 

[rvdborgt]

We each had an Interrail German Rail Pass, Flexi Pass where you can use 7 days within 1 month. 1st Class Adults. We purchased them online from https://bahn.eurail.com/en/one-country-pass/german-rail-pass
Cost was roughly £300 each.

In that case, you can request compensation here:

Delay Compensation

If your Interrail journey was delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may be eligible for compensation. Read this policy for more information.

www.interrail.eu

They want proof of delay, but since EU legislation doesn't require that, you don't have to provide it, although it may speed up the process. If they insist, just say that EU Regulation 2021/782 doesn't require it and that they're supposed to verify the delay themselves.

 

[Bikeman78]

Dissatisfaction in Germany with DB is nothing new. The UK public is fed a constant diet of 'railways on the continent are so much better than ours' stories and much of the time it just isn't true.

I did a week long bashing trip about 15 years ago. The regional loco hauled trains were mostly okay but the two ICEs I went on were both over 30 minutes late. The Dutch railways are far better, though they do have their bad days too. I used to think the Belgian system was good but they don't seem to be at all interested in timekeeping now. That's on a system with slacker schedules and more powerful trains than 20 years ago.

 

[Re 4/4]

Germany is currently so short of diesel trains that for goods and works trains, they're using the strategic steam reserve

58 311 from a museum railway near Ulm has been rented to help out with the shortage.

 

[duesselmartin]

I did a week long bashing trip about 15 years ago. The regional loco hauled trains were mostly okay but the two ICEs I went on were both over 30 minutes late. The Dutch railways are far better, though they do have their bad days too. I used to think the Belgian system was good but they don't seem to be at all interested in timekeeping now. That's on a system with slacker schedules and more powerful trains than 20 years ago.

it seems timekeeping drops on just every European network in the last couple of years. Even SBB and ÖBB (although still good) have a drop in punctuality.

 

[bahnause]

it seems timekeeping drops on just every European network in the last couple of years. Even SBB and ÖBB (although still good) have a drop in punctuality.

Definitely not the case with SBB. Punctuality is stable:

SBB Punctuality

 

[E94]

Germany is currently so short of diesel trains that for goods and works trains, they're using the strategic steam reserve

58 311 from a museum railway near Ulm has been rented to help out with the shortage.

The most punctual part of my last trip to Germany was the stretch from Bad Doberan to Kühlungsborn, so maybe steam is the way forward!

 

[gazzak]

On the BBC home page today:

How Euro 2024 busted legend of German efficiency

As football fans poured across Germany, they discovered the trains weren’t as good as they thought.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[30907]

On the BBC home page today:

How Euro 2024 busted legend of German efficiency

As football fans poured across Germany, they discovered the trains weren’t as good as they thought.

www.bbc.co.uk

TBH it surprised me how long it lasted - in a non-railway context I was disabused of it after a couple of years' experience, and that was 25 years ago (in both ex-DDR and ex-BRD).

 

[43096]

TBH it surprised me how long it lasted - in a non-railway context I was disabused of it after a couple of years' experience, and that was 25 years ago (in both ex-DDR and ex-BRD).

But on the flip side when they’re good, they’re very good. I had the pleasure of one of the new ICE 3neo sets last week. They are superb trains: comfortable, superb ride and the Bordrestaurant was excellent. And yes it was on time. Frankly they show up our IETs for what they are: third rate dross. The bar has been set for the HS2 stock: anything less than ICE 3neo standard and they are a failure. I’m not holding my breath.

 

[Horizon22]

TBH it surprised me how long it lasted - in a non-railway context I was disabused of it after a couple of years' experience, and that was 25 years ago (in both ex-DDR and ex-BRD).

It's classic British exceptionalism though - "our trains are terrible, its so much better in Europe" - despite many of those people never having taken a train in Europe! Now they've actually experienced in some people even stated ours are "much better" (!)

Certainly in the last 5 years (at least) DB has really struggled as we here know, but many casual people do not.

 

[duesselmartin]

actual I here the same in the Netherlands, Denmark, even Austria. Everyone seems to be convinced their own network is the worst. Until they come to Germany.

 

[AdamWW]

But on the flip side when they’re good, they’re very good. I had the pleasure of one of the new ICE 3neo sets last week. They are superb trains: comfortable, superb ride and the Bordrestaurant was excellent. And yes it was on time.

Do the windows generally line up with the seats?

(Not unusual if they don't, of course, but I personally wouldn't consider a train to have a superb design if it lacks that).

 

[rvdborgt]

Do the windows generally line up with the seats?

Not necessarily. In the seat selector there are now warnings for seats with a limited view ("French window").

 

[johncrossley]

Not necessarily. In the seat selector there are now warnings for seats with a limited view ("French window").

Do they align with the windows in 1st class?

 

[DanielB]

Not everywhere, I've seen those warnings for misaligned seats also in 1st class.

 

[rvdborgt]

Not everywhere, I've seen those warnings for misaligned seats also in 1st class.

I can confirm. Just go to bahn.de and try the seat selector for Brussels/Amsterdam-Cologne and you'll see some warnings.

 

[duesselmartin]

at least some progress. If they cheapen the misaligned seats one could almost be happy.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do they align with the windows in 1st class?

No. As indiscriminate as 2nd Class.

 

[RailWonderer]

Sort of related.

Thousands of Germans surrender driving licence for free public transport

The 2023 incentive, aimed at senior citizens, is part of country’s efforts to reduce its reliance on automobiles

www.telegraph.co.uk

Germans are handing over their driving licences in exchange for free public transport.
Around a thousand people in North Rhine-Westphalia, a populous western German state, have relinquished their driving licences as part of a scheme designed to reduce the car-loving country’s reliance on automobiles.
Aimed primarily at senior citizens, the incentive enables people to surrender their driving licences for a year’s free public transport, known as the “Deutschlandticket.”
The ticket, which normally costs €49 (£41) a month, allows holders to travel on all local transport across Germany, including regional trains.
In Leverkusen, near Cologne, nearly 600 people over the age of 75 have opted into the scheme so far, saving them just under £500 on public transport for the year. The benefits of the scheme vary from state to state.
Leverkusen pioneered the initiative in 2023, with other Rhineland areas such as Dortmund, Kleve, and the former capital Bonn following suit this year.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that. Germany is the country which torpedoed EU attempts to introduce a union-wide requirement for drivers over 70 to have their vision and hearing checked(which most EU countries already do). So I guess this could be seen as a kind of alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

As a non car driver I'd be fairly annoyed if the motorists suddenly got a years free rail and I didn't.

 

[MarcVD]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that. Germany is the country which torpedoed EU attempts to introduce a union-wide requirement for drivers over 70 to have their vision and hearing checked(which most EU countries already do). So I guess this could be seen as a kind of alternative.

Belgium voted against this proposal too. The Belgian position is that senior people are the segment of motorists that cause the lowest amount of accidents already and it is therefore absolutely unnecessary to impose any additional burden on them. A position that I agree with wholeheartedly.