given £139.50 fare notice due to train breakdown.. Help!

[All Line Rover]

That has got to be a blatant lie as someone in his capacity will surely know that anyone with access to the staff version of live departure boards can check the delay to any train. If the train manager doesn't have a computer on board he can phone someone who does.

And of course, the First Class CSA's always have an iPhone on them!

 

[cuccir]

Out of interest the condition says:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Does this mean on a route like Preston-Scotland if you missed the TPE service because of a delayed connecting train then you could take the next train if it was Virgin or vice versa?

I think it's been established that the answer to this is 'no' if you are applying the letter of the law, but in practice that it is often 'yes', and that it would definitely be yes if it were the final services of the day.

Edit: presuming, of course, that the ticket is 'TPE only'. If it is 'TPE & connections', then you would be allowed travel (I think).
Edit Edit: see questions 22-24 here .

 

[pemma]

I think it's been established that the answer to this is 'no' if you are applying the letter of the law, but in practice that it is often 'yes', and that it would definitely be yes if it were the final services of the day.

OK. So in the instance you had an advance ticket for Manchester-Carlisle and the ticket is for the TPE Blackpool service to Preston and then a Virgin service to Carlisle. However, the Blackpool service is cancelled and the next service to Preston is a TPE Scottish service calling at Carlisle, so strictly you would have to alight that service at Preston?

 

[richardderby]

as far as im concerned, ive had enough of virgin, and if thats the best tony collins, can come up with, i am prepared to elevate this to the next level.

for legal reasons, i do not wish to go into too much detail, but im sure if one of you were marched off a train by the police and treated like criminals, for a situation beyond your control, you would feel the same.

I didnt expect any compassion from virgin trains, and therefore expected this kind of 'covering their ass' letter.

After speaking to virgin colleagues, apparently 'Ricky' the TM has a problem with working sundays (especially evenings), and perhaps we were embroiled in this for these reasons...

 

[Ferret]

So have VT TMs not got access to Genius Mobile then? I've got to say that unless I have cause to be suspicious (usually the demeanour of the passenger), I'll take their word for it that they've been delayed. If I am suspicious, it takes me 2 mins to double check on Genius Mobile, and I have caught out a few like that as well!

 

[cuccir]

OK. So in the instance you had an advance ticket for Manchester-Carlisle and the ticket is for the TPE Blackpool service to Preston and then a Virgin service to Carlisle. However, the Blackpool service is cancelled and the next service to Preston is a TPE Scottish service calling at Carlisle, so strictly you would have to alight that service at Preston?

I suspect that this would be OK to travel straight through if you had a TPE Advance, because you'd be using TPE services all the way through on your replacement journey.

Technically what wouldn't be allowed: A Manchester - Windermere advance, TPE only. Manchester-Winderemere service is cancelled. You could take a Scotland-bound TPE service to Oxenholme, and then change. But you couldn't take a Blackpool bound TPE service to Preston, then change on a Virgin service to Oxenholme.

That said, note that HairyHandedFool's quote from the Manual says that during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their control office. So in practice, you can often use other company's trains.

 

[pemma]

I suspect that this would be OK to travel straight through if you had a TPE Advance, because you'd be using TPE services all the way through on your replacement journey

That's where it might cause confusion for the average passenger. A Virgin Advance says a shortened form of "West Coast & Connections" not "Virgin Trains & Connections" so to Joe Average both trains go the same way so they both must use the West Coast route.

 

[MikeWh]

Just a quick suggestion ... would it be possible to split this thread so the associated discussions are separate to the actual issue that started the thread. It seems that this issue is far from settled and it would be helpful not to have the discussion clouded by other issues.

 

[island]

This is just UK legislation isn't it? Does that mean websites based outside the UK (does that include Ryanair?) are not affected by this, or does it affect all websites selling to UK customers?

They say it affects anyone selling to UK customers, although quite how the OFT (or whoever's going to enforce it) will exercise jurisdiction over an Irish company I'm not sure.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

We were advised the train manager would be unable to check delays on connecting services operated by companies other than virgin

This is a load of rubbish. Anybody can phone up and check from their control about whether any train was running on time etc.

and it is standard procedure to make the customer pay again, unless they have had the ticket endorsed by virgin staff, berfore boarding the connecting train.

Whilst it is always very helpful if station or other on train staff endorse tickets, and I endeavour to do this as much as possible if I am working a delayed train and I have people with connections, it is certainly not compulsory.

So have VT TMs not got access to Genius Mobile then? I've got to say that unless I have cause to be suspicious (usually the demeanour of the passenger), I'll take their word for it that they've been delayed. If I am suspicious, it takes me 2 mins to double check on Genius Mobile, and I have caught out a few like that as well!

Not everyone has access to such a facility. At my TOC we do not have smartphones, but the worlds oldest, cheapest Nokias. They did do a trial with smartphones and such software, but decided it was too expensive and wouldn't spend the money. Now, I have access to LDBs on my personal mobile so I can - and often do - check the progress of trains. Sometimes passengers are genuine, sometimes they are telling porkies and they have just missed the original train or not allowed themselves enough connection time. Whilst this does take time - and depends on where I am on the route as many areas have poor phone signal - it is not impossible, and in the case of somebody who may have to be charged a not inconsiderable sum of money, can save a lot of hassle later for all concerned.

 

[radamfi]

I can understand a guard on a local train not having the time or equipment to check for delays but we are talking about the UK's premier domestic train service, where there is over an hour between stops!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I can understand a guard on a local train not having the time or equipment to check for delays but we are talking about the UK's premier domestic train service, where there is over an hour between stops!

There is generally no need to check on local trains anyway as they are normally unreserved connecting services where it doesn't really matter what you catch. And I don't work on local trains!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That's where it might cause confusion for the average passenger. A Virgin Advance says a shortened form of "West Coast & Connections" not "Virgin Trains & Connections" so to Joe Average both trains go the same way so they both must use the West Coast route.

Advance fares set by Virgin are always routed 'VWC & Connections' or 'VWC only', VWC being short for 'Virgin West Coast'.

Virgin Trains were the first to shift to TOC labelled routeing for their "Virgin Value" range of tickets, at first using 'Virgin Trains Only' and later adding 'Virgin Trains & Connections', those later split into 'VXC Only', 'VXC & Connections', VWC Only' and 'VWC & Connections', with some journeys having all four!.

'VXC Only' and 'VXC and Connections' lost the 'V' when Arriva took charge of Cross Country.

 

[WestCoast]

It's news to me about this offending "policy". :-? Seems very, very strange.

I've boarded a different service at Preston twice on "VWC & Connections" advances, when the connecting train has been late, and the train manager was absolutely fine about it. They can ring control can't they?

 

[junglejames]

Outrageous! I take issue with that, as it suggests you have done wrong but are being let off!

Good.

That's appauling. I suggest writing to them again (I am happy to proof read if you like) and say that you may be taking the matter up with your MP and Passenger Focus if a satisfactory response is not issued.

Virgin are normally better than this.

Im with Yorkie on this. The good will gesture comment got my nose up quite a bit, and it wasnt even me he wrote to!
Time for a harsh, but civil letter back to him.

 

[Statto]

as far as im concerned, ive had enough of virgin, and if thats the best tony collins, can come up with, i am prepared to elevate this to the next level.

for legal reasons, i do not wish to go into too much detail, but im sure if one of you were marched off a train by the police and treated like criminals, for a situation beyond your control, you would feel the same.

I didnt expect any compassion from virgin trains, and therefore expected this kind of 'covering their ass' letter.

After speaking to virgin colleagues, apparently 'Ricky' the TM has a problem with working sundays (especially evenings), and perhaps we were embroiled in this for these reasons...

I'd send a strongly worded letter back reminding him of the NRCoC that states that the you're entitled to use AP tickets on the next available train to compleat your journey, if you're are delayed on a connecting service, meaning they've missed there booked service.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'd send a strongly worded letter back reminding him of the NRCoC that states that the you're entitled to use AP tickets on the next available train to compleat your journey, if you're are delayed on a connecting service, meaning they've missed there booked service.


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

It's not the NRCoC, it's the Advance terms and conditions. If you're gonna write a strongly worded letter, it's best to get the facts right

 

[Statto]

It's not the NRCoC, it's the Advance terms and conditions. If you're gonna write a strongly worded letter, it's best to get the facts right

i'd still write a strongly worded letter reminding him of the AP T&C.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

 

[richardderby]

just wanted to say thank you for the help i recieved on the forum, as mentioned, the UPFN were cancelled by Virgin as a 'gesture of goodwill', which we are not happy about, as we get the impression virgin thinks it is doing something extraordinary in doing so. The staff on the delayed TPE train did not advise having the ticket endorsed, and neither do the advance ticket conditions. as for being unable to check 'real time information of a connecting service', if thats true, in this era of technology, it certainly needs addressing! next stop, passenger focus, Virgin have had thier chance for redress, and someone needs to put a stop to this 'railway' robbery, it is no better than organised theft! :roll:
Will let you all know the final outcome in due course.....

 

[voyagerdude220]

I used to be a big fan of VT, but have got fed up of little petty things which VT have been up to over the last year or so (im mostly referring to staff attitude). I had a very rude, aggressive 'Team Leader' at Glc demanding me to buy a new ticket one Sunday recently, when i missed my connecting 221 to Carlisle (for the Northern Dalesrail service) as a result of over running engineering work. I refused, and after finding my TM a short time later, got permission to return via the WCML.

 

[yorkie]

I had a very rude, aggressive 'Team Leader' at Glc demanding me to buy a new ticket one Sunday recently, when i missed my connecting 221 to Carlisle (for the Northern Dalesrail service) as a result of over running engineering work. I refused, and after finding my TM a short time later, got permission to return via the WCML.

This sort of post is best posted on a new thread, but I would refuse to hand over any money under such circumstances and if they insist on issuing a new ticket, then they will have to issue an Unpaid Fare Notice, which we will be happy to assist you in appealing. I would be confident of the request for payment being dropped.

 

[323235]

Whoever is on there facebook page isn't much better, they were telling someone on an Advance from the opposite side of London who was being delayed on I think it was a Southern service (they gave plenty of details at the time which I read carefully) and was likely to not get across London on the tube in time for the VT service they were booked on that they would need to buy a brand new ticket. In the end the person just made it if I recall correctly by the skin of their teeth.

I challenged what they were saying.

 

[Greenback]

I challenged what they were saying.

What happened?

 

[WestCoast]

Whoever is on there facebook page isn't much better, they were telling someone on an Advance from the opposite side of London who was being delayed on I think it was a Southern service (they gave plenty of details at the time which I read carefully) and was likely to not get across London on the tube in time for the VT service they were booked on that they would need to buy a brand new ticket. In the end the person just made it if I recall correctly by the skin of their teeth.

I challenged what they were saying.

I remember that, we were discussing a thread about companies use of social networking sites and I mentioned it.

They do seem to answer most queries suitably, but this one they got very wrong!

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Oh dear oh dear. The "gesture of goodwill" line is what you need to go and hang them with. I was absolutely all for "the guy cocked up and needs retraining" concept until you get the letter stating that Virgin Trains are acting in breech of the NCoC.

Where I think a rather basic problem lies is that the ticketing system is overly complex and badly regulated. The train companies cannot make it up as they go along to extort as much money as they can from passengers following the rules they allegedly abide by. Either Virgin do not understand the ticketing rules or they are choosing to disobey them for commercial gain.

Either way it is wholly unacceptable for the Chief Exec to be happy sending out that as a reply. Once again we have someone who has more than a passing interest in the railways coming a cropper of its set up to screw you ticketing rules. If this was a member of the public you can guess how disposed they would be to using the railways again in the future.

Last time I was offered a refund as a "gesture of goodwill" is was from a certain Spanish bank whose apocalyptic merger of various bankrupt high street names had led them to arse up swathes of direct debits. The gesture of goodwill in this case was to refund fines applied due to their mismanagement of my transactions sending me overdrawn. Once they had properly apologised and suitably compensated me for the slur I closed my various accounts with them and now entertain myself joining in with the throngs of other ex-customers slagging them off on various consumer advice web forums, encouraging the poor souls still in their clutches to leave at once. That would be my reaction to Virgin Trains in this situation......

 

[WestCoast]

Last time I was offered a refund as a "gesture of goodwill" is was from a certain Spanish bank whose apocalyptic merger of various bankrupt high street names had led them to arse up swathes of direct debits. The gesture of goodwill in this case was to refund fines applied due to their mismanagement of my transactions sending me overdrawn. Once they had properly apologised and suitably compensated me for the slur I closed my various accounts with them and now entertain myself joining in with the throngs of other ex-customers slagging them off on various consumer advice web forums, encouraging the poor souls still in their clutches to leave at once. That would be my reaction to Virgin Trains in this situation......

Ugh, I got £10 compensation once as a gesture of goodwill from that bank over something they'd cocked-up over about 6 months...

Actually, Virgin customer service has always been perfectly fine in the past for me and the vast majority of the guards I have encountered have been pleasant, knowledgeable and helpful. They've never duped me before, always responded to queries satisfactorily and I did travel with them (albeit on a short journey) every weekend for three years.

Something lately may have happened, but this seems extremely unusual for the company to be so blasé about the NRCoC (especially the CEO!), when they seem to have been fine with them in all the past years...

Bizarre.

 

[scotsman]

Send a letter to Richard Branson too! The actions of the TM and the CEO do not exactly live up to the ethos of the Virgin Group he wants. I read his autobiography and I get the impression that he wants Virgin to (make money, lots of it) improve the lives of people and to do so in an informal manner. Having Police meat pax whose only crime was to be on a late train hardly meets his expectations...

 

[185]

Don't bother with Virgin or Passenger Focus.

Virgin don't care, we already know that,
Passenger Focus are now no more than an overfunded lazy quango.

Best solution is to take them to court. If not possible to prosecute on sale of good over breaching their own published fare restrictions, then you can certainly look at a claim for stress and intimidation. Beats a poxy £50 Rail Travel Voucher and a pretyped load of drivel from Virmin.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Even though it's not part of the rules anyway, there are many situations where getting a ticket endorsed before travel would not be possible. There are times when you miss connections narrowly and perhaps don't even realise the train is late until you get off and realise your connection has left. On a busy train the guard might not be able to get around in time to sort out connections for everyone, especially if the delay occurs or gets worse near where you connect (especially with a busy station a train running slightly late is prone to being held outside waiting for a platform as it's booked one is now occupied). You could get it done at the station but that assumes the station is staffed and that there are staff available to do it in a reasonable time without missing even more trains (would platform staff do it or would you have to que at the ticket office?). Virgin even goes as far as to say it needs to be Virgin staff, so what happens if you connect at a station they don't manage? I don't think there are that many stations VT call at these days they don't manage or provide staff on but there must be some.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't think there are that many stations VT call at these days they don't manage or provide staff on but there must be some.

There is, which is why the supposed "requirement" is stupid.

I am almost sure they don't have any of their own staff at Wilmslow, which is managed by Northern or Sandwell & Dudley, which is managed by London Midland.

I don't think they have any of their own staff at stations along the North Wales Coast either, where the stations are staffed by Arriva Trains Wales.

Not sure about Milton Keynes Central or Watford Junction.