GN Class 717

[petersi]

I assumed there would be reasons that people who knew more than me could give - driver training being the main obstacle I guess - but why is there a lack of DOO equipment on 313s? They're DOO on the NCL at the moment (without any platform staff present at Hornsey at least).

There is platform equipment. The globulin line Doo is based on in cab monitors

 

[choochoochoo]

It was bad enough when Bombardier had all the buttons fall off their trains, but I didn't the next step would be no trains at all.

That said, I've heard the 717 introduction might have been postponed by an as yet unknown period of time. Not sure the reason why (I've merely heard there's maybe still an issue at Moorgate).

Think they won't be in service next week. I think the drivers who have been trained on 717 need to go out once again with a trainer as their previous brake handling didn't involve them stopping at all stations and getting used to the very different stopping location at quite a few stations compared to the other stock.

From what I've heard, very few drivers have had this additional training.

 

[Aictos]

I assumed there would be reasons that people who knew more than me could give - driver training being the main obstacle I guess - but why is there a lack of DOO equipment on 313s? They're DOO on the NCL at the moment (without any platform staff present at Hornsey at least).

Drivers either use the platform based DOO equipment or they either look back from the cab/stand on the platform and look back....

As to DOO, the only stations with active dispatchers that I know of is Moorgate, Finsbury Park, Welwyn Garden City, Gordon Hill, Stevenage and Hertford North that serve GN Inners - The other stations just have ticket office staff or in the case of the NCL stations they have platform staff but they don't dispatch they are there for legal requirements I believe.

 

[Fred26]

Drivers either use the platform based DOO equipment or they either look back from the cab/stand on the platform and look back....

As to DOO, the only stations with active dispatchers that I know of is Moorgate, Finsbury Park, Welwyn Garden City, Gordon Hill, Stevenage and Hertford North that serve GN Inners - The other stations just have ticket office staff or in the case of the NCL stations they have platform staff but they don't dispatch they are there for legal requirements I believe.

Actually, most of GN inner stations are manned with platform staff throughout the day, at least first to last, all trained in dispatch. However, the majority of those are agency, or on 12 month contracts.

 

[jon0844]

313s and 365s still have hours of darkness dispatch at a lot of stations but generally speaking most have stopped dispatching or will next year. I think WGC and Hertford North will continue to do so for a while and there's even talk of the union wanting Finsbury Park to start dispatching all trains again, possibly because of the inability to hold trains for platform changes and other things.

But the ultimate aim must be to stop dispatching everywhere and let the driver do it with stock fitted with onboard cameras. This may well require the 365s to go eventually.

 

[Felix A]

Are the 717s still set to run next Monday?

 

[Aictos]

Actually, most of GN inner stations are manned with platform staff throughout the day, at least first to last, all trained in dispatch. However, the majority of those are agency, or on 12 month contracts.

Damn sorry I forgot about that, I thought it was only certain stations that had platform staff?

So which stations don't have platform staff then?

 

[rebmcr]

Christmas trees...?

Used for parts. Does the saying refer to the fact it just sits there looking 'pretty'?

No, because it's full of "presents" (hard-to-replace parts).

 

[Class315]

Damn sorry I forgot about that, I thought it was only certain stations that had platform staff?

So which stations don't have platform staff then?

Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill,Crews Hill, Bayford, New Southgate,Oakleigh Park, Welham Green & Brookmans Park.

Those stations either have DOO Camera monitors or a look back method can be carried out.

 

[Fred26]

Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill,Crews Hill, Bayford, New Southgate,Oakleigh Park, Welham Green & Brookmans Park.

Those stations either have DOO Camera monitors or a look back method can be carried out.

Actually, only Crews Hill, Bayford, Welham Green, and Brookmans Park. The rest are manned first to last.

 

[Class315]

Actually, only Crews Hill, Bayford, Welham Green, and Brookmans Park. The rest are manned first to last.

I was answering in regards to the query of which stations don't have platform staff, Palmers Green & Winchmore Hill have staff working on the barriers. But they're not trained in Dispatch.
New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, Welham Green & Brookmans Park all have dedicated staff that operate and run the Ticket offices up until mid-morning, I was under the impression that once the Ticket Office's close they remain unstaffed.
But things may of changed since I left platform although I never came under the GN South group, but i've only seen an agency person moving between the two platforms at New Southgate although that practise ceased a while ago.

Going back to the 717's, There is currently a failed 717 on the Up Northern City Line between Essex Road and Old Street which was declared a failure a few hours ago, the driver has gone back to Hornsey to retrieve another 717 to couple up to the failed 717 and haul it back to Hornsey as 1Z99.

EDIT: The Train has made a wrong direction move back to Drayton Park and is now proceeding as a 12 car back to Hornsey.

 

[Aictos]

Sorry guys but I class Platform staff as Dispatchers only, Revenue staff I class as Ticket Office or Gateline - maybe I ought to be more clearer when I asked?

 

[Fred26]

I was answering in regards to the query of which stations don't have platform staff, Palmers Green & Winchmore Hill have staff working on the barriers. But they're not trained in Dispatch.
New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, Welham Green & Brookmans Park all have dedicated staff that operate and run the Ticket offices up until mid-morning, I was under the impression that once the Ticket Office's close they remain unstaffed.
But things may of changed since I left platform although I never came under the GN South group, but i've only seen an agency person moving between the two platforms at New Southgate although that practise ceased a while ago.

I was talking about dispatch staff. As I said, the only stations that are inner stations without platform staff are Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Crews Hill, and Bayford. The others all do, and they're all safety critical. They're either agency or on 12 month contracts though.

 

[WeGoAgain]

I was talking about dispatch staff. As I said, the only stations that are inner stations without platform staff are Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Crews Hill, and Bayford. The others all do, and they're all safety critical. They're either agency or on 12 month contracts though.

Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Crews Hill, Cuffley, Bayford and Watton-at-Stone (on the Down), New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, Potters Bar, Brookmans Park, Welham Green do NOT have dispatch Staff.
These stations are either look back or monitor Train Driver only dispatch as "Class315" has correctly said.

 

[Fred26]

Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Crews Hill, Cuffley, Bayford and Watton-at-Stone (on the Down), New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, Potters Bar, Brookmans Park, Welham Green do NOT have dispatch Staff.
These stations are either look back or monitor Train Driver only dispatch as "Class315" has correctly said.

The two aren't incompatible. Just because trains are self dispatch, doesn't mean there aren't dispatch staff present. See: Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
I've since double checked (rosters) and though some are manned in hours of darkness for dispatch, most have dispatch staff in some form.

It's part of the franchise that all stations with 1 million or more passengers per anum have to be manned first-to-last. There wasn't anything to say it had to be platform staff, but certainly they form part of it. (I have just downloaded and read the franchise agreement.)

I may have been wrong, in as much as platform staff aren't at all stations all day, but they do exist at most stations. Again, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Crews Hill, Bayford, (and one I missed) Cuffley are the only GN inner stations without platform staff. If you're staff it's quite easy to verify.

 

[WeGoAgain]

The two aren't incompatible. Just because trains are self dispatch, doesn't mean there aren't dispatch staff present. See: Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
I've since double checked (rosters) and though some are manned in hours of darkness for dispatch, most have dispatch staff in some form.

It's part of the franchise that all stations with 1 million or more passengers per anum have to be manned first-to-last. There wasn't anything to say it had to be platform staff, but certainly they form part of it. (I have just downloaded and read the franchise agreement.)

I may have been wrong, in as much as platform staff aren't at all stations all day, but they do exist at most stations. Again, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Crews Hill, Bayford, (and one I missed) Cuffley are the only GN inner stations without platform staff. If you're staff it's quite easy to verify.

As this has arisen from "Class 403"'s post, (post number 993), it's a reasonable assumption that "active dispatchers" means staff which actually dispatch trains. The fact that 'passive' dispatch staff are on the station to possibly satisfy contractual obligations I feel is irrelevant from the viewpoint of the layperson.

 

[Class315]

The two aren't incompatible. Just because trains are self dispatch, doesn't mean there aren't dispatch staff present. See: Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
I've since double checked (rosters) and though some are manned in hours of darkness for dispatch, most have dispatch staff in some form.

It's part of the franchise that all stations with 1 million or more passengers per anum have to be manned first-to-last. There wasn't anything to say it had to be platform staff, but certainly they form part of it. (I have just downloaded and read the franchise agreement.)

I may have been wrong, in as much as platform staff aren't at all stations all day, but they do exist at most stations. Again, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Crews Hill, Bayford, (and one I missed) Cuffley are the only GN inner stations without platform staff. If you're staff it's quite easy to verify.

I don't want to veer this further of topic, but I still don't consider Revenue to be classed as Dispatch staff, when I worked at a GN station up until Spring this year, I retained my safety critical card and was frequently assessed to retain my dispatch competency. All Revenue staff don't possess a Safety critical card. Upon reflection, I was sent from my old station when an agency member of staff mistakenly switched the lights off at Palmers Green with the main light panel within the closed Ticket Office, the station was closed that evening until I could gain access to the TO. Thus Palmers Green & Winchmore Hill are staffed from first to last but with Station Hosts and RPI's with no platform staff at the aforementioned, or else at the latter a dispatcher could be utilised to dispatch at Winchmore Hill on the down road instead of the driver using the look back method and having to wait for the crowds to disperse before safely departing.

FTR, I'm a GN member of staff too, so feel free to personally message me if you require verification.

The failed unit was still coupled up within Hornsey today, The unit was carrying out the first Fire Evacuation Procedure (FEP) on a 717 when it failed overnight.

 

[jon0844]

It was being filmed wasn't it?

 

[Fred26]

As this has arisen from "Class 403"'s post, (post number 993), it's a reasonable assumption that "active dispatchers" means staff which actually dispatch trains. The fact that 'passive' dispatch staff are on the station to possibly satisfy contractual obligations I feel is irrelevant from the viewpoint of the layperson.

That's a daft way of looking at it. Dispatchers are dispatchers regardless of whether they dispatch anything. They're trained and assessed, and kept safety critical in case they are needed.

I don't want to veer this further of topic, but I still don't consider Revenue to be classed as Dispatch staff, when I worked at a GN station up until Spring this year, I retained my safety critical card and was frequently assessed to retain my dispatch competency. All Revenue staff don't possess a Safety critical card. Upon reflection, I was sent from my old station when an agency member of staff mistakenly switched the lights off at Palmers Green with the main light panel within the closed Ticket Office, the station was closed that evening until I could gain access to the TO. Thus Palmers Green & Winchmore Hill are staffed from first to last but with Station Hosts and RPI's with no platform staff at the aforementioned, or else at the latter a dispatcher could be utilised to dispatch at Winchmore Hill on the down road instead of the driver using the look back method and having to wait for the crowds to disperse before safely departing.

FTR, I'm a GN member of staff too, so feel free to personally message me if you require verification.

The failed unit was still coupled up within Hornsey today, The unit was carrying out the first Fire Evacuation Procedure (FEP) on a 717 when it failed overnight.

Revenue staff are not dispatchers. I haven't said they are.

 

[tofl]

For what it's worth as a user of stations that are somewhat deserted outside peak hours I find the presence of any kind of station staff most welcome. The ones at Hornsey seem pretty decent on the whole. I feel sorry for whoever does weekends at Drayton Park!

Going back to an earlier point on exit and entry from 313s causing delays, I totally agree and very much hope the 717s will help that. However I also feel us passengers could help ourselves by treating the 30 seconds of your life getting on and off the train each morning and evening as something of a military operation and moving smartly down into empty space rather than shuffling reluctantly to somewhere you can bury your head in your mobile phone. Yes, we'd all like to be next to the doors so we can get off quickly but we're all adults and know that you can't always get what you want.

Anyone know why two freight/maintenance trains have started running towards KX through FP at about 8.55/9am every weekday morning? I'm sure they serve a purpose but seems an odd time to be running them when there's so much pressure on platforms and lines at FP and we're all hovering by the stairs on platforms 1/2 waiting to see if the 8.52 to Farringdon is going to be changed to leave from platform 4.

 

[choochoochoo]

Interesting there were a few 3-car 313 services this morning.

Think that's how they're going to make the extra services scheduled in the new timetable next week whilst the 717 remains stabled for a bit longer ?

 

[jon0844]

Interesting there were a few 3-car 313 services this morning.

Think that's how they're going to make the extra services scheduled in the new timetable next week whilst the 717 remains stabled for a bit longer ?

Maybe, although they managed to have mostly 6 car when they were running the 4tph service (it's not much different to the peak service). I think it's more likely down to faults, with many motors having issues. I've also seen more door stickers (locked out) so perhaps they're all going to have repairs.

I was also told the leasing fee until March has tripled, so the 717s need to come ASAP.

 

[notverydeep]

Anyone know why two freight/maintenance trains have started running towards KX through FP at about 8.55/9am every weekday morning? I'm sure they serve a purpose but seems an odd time to be running them when there's so much pressure on platforms and lines at FP and we're all hovering by the stairs on platforms 1/2 waiting to see if the 8.52 to Farringdon is going to be changed to leave from platform 4.

One is a Rail Head Treatment Train (RHTT) that deals with poor adhesion / leaves on the line, formed of Class 66 + two container flats with blue tanks + Class 66. These are often running up and down all day. Here is this part of the diagram on Real Time Trains: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H41456/2018/12/06/advanced. This goes down to the Canonbury Curve, where it has 9 minutes to reverse. I presume it will stop running in the next few weeks as the leaf fall season finishes. Because of this train, signalers often switch the 08:49 Moorgate to platform 2, which in turn leads them to divert the 08:52 Brighton to platform 4 and often delays all manner of other services...

The other is a GBRF Freight from Doncaster to Tonbridge with the headcode 6O75. Whenever I have seen this, the consist is formed of Class 66 + black painted open spoil / aggregate wagons (what would be termed 'gondola cars' in the US): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45798/2018/12/05/advanced. This heads for the North London Line at Belle Isle (between Copenhagen Tunnel and Gasworks Tunnel), just before the point where the Thameslink services diverge for St. Pancras. This doesn't seem to run every day.

 

[332 > 444]

One is a Rail Head Treatment Train (RHTT) that deals with poor adhesion / leaves on the line, formed of Class 66 + two container flats with blue tanks + Class 66. These are often running up and down all day. Here is this part of the diagram on Real Time Trains: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H41456/2018/12/06/advanced. This goes down to the Canonbury Curve, where it has 9 minutes to reverse. I presume it will stop running in the next few weeks as the leaf fall season finishes. Because of this train, signalers often switch the 08:49 Moorgate to platform 2, which in turn leads them to divert the 08:52 Brighton to platform 4 and often delays all manner of other services...

The other is a GBRF Freight from Doncaster to Tonbridge with the headcode 6O75. Whenever I have seen this, the consist is formed of Class 66 + black painted open spoil / aggregate wagons (what would be termed 'gondola cars' in the US): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45798/2018/12/05/advanced. This heads for the North London Line at Belle Isle (between Copenhagen Tunnel and Gasworks Tunnel), just before the point where the Thameslink services diverge for St. Pancras. This doesn't seem to run every day.

Which happened to me today, as I was changing ends at Langley turnback it passed until I was routed on the up Hertford ahead of him and stayed that way until it used the up slow 2 line to get ahead and then into Canonbury. Sometimes it gets turned around in the Up reverse sidings at Harringay also which was usually the norm as it again was heading to Canonbury tunnel when I was supposed to go ECS via that way (result!)

 

[Kite159]

Maybe, although they managed to have mostly 6 car when they were running the 4tph service (it's not much different to the peak service). I think it's more likely down to faults, with many motors having issues. I've also seen more door stickers (locked out) so perhaps they're all going to have repairs.

I was also told the leasing fee until March has tripled, so the 717s need to come ASAP.

The rolling stock owners getting one last pay day before the stock is sent to various scrapyards?

 

[Bikeman78]

Interesting there were a few 3-car 313 services this morning.

Think that's how they're going to make the extra services scheduled in the new timetable next week whilst the 717 remains stabled for a bit longer ?

There are 20 pairs and one single set. That was the case in May with the full four train per hour off peak service. If there are short forms then they must have broken units. It won't help having 313047 out of action which means 43 units to cover 41 diagrams.

 

[Bikeman78]

Maybe, although they managed to have mostly 6 car when they were running the 4tph service (it's not much different to the peak service). I think it's more likely down to faults, with many motors having issues. I've also seen more door stickers (locked out) so perhaps they're all going to have repairs.

I was also told the leasing fee until March has tripled, so the 717s need to come ASAP.

What does that mean? If the TOC has an existing agreement, can they put the price up during the term of the lease? Or are they all on short term leases now because the 717s have arrived later than planned?

 

[Team Defect]

Not sure if anyone has already posted, but we have been informed that the 717s are now not due to start entering service until after Christmas.

The train that failed on the up NCL the other night suffered a failure of the main Ethernet train back bone (main data comes line). This system should switch over to the redundant system automatically in the even of a fault. It failed to do so!! Siemens are currently investigating the cause. This train had to be pulled out of the NCL by another 717. This issue is not the reason that the 717s are delayed until after Christmas. I believe this is due to driver issues, not sure what exactly.

 

[Team Defect]

That's data comms line. Stupid auto spell correction.

 

[jon0844]

What does that mean? If the TOC has an existing agreement, can they put the price up during the term of the lease? Or are they all on short term leases now because the 717s have arrived later than planned?

They are now on, or imminently on, a short term lease.

A further rumour is that some of these trains aren't going to be scrapped either!