GN Class 717

[Class315]

The Northern City Line is owned by NR, whom look after the infrastructure, carry out possessions through contractors. All the stations bar Essex Road and Drayton Park are operated by TFL, so in terms of evacuation staff must follow LU instructions, the platforms are of the responsibility of NR.

 

[bramling]

There is "usually" a two hour rule that allows drivers to dispatch using degraded working - after that staff are required to attend - if they cannot attend, then trains don't call. Who pays for that has NEVER been a discussion I have had, but chasing staff to site has taken up a good few hours of my past 20 years employment (no longer my concern). What the bean counters do after that is their job, it was never mine and nobody ever approached me to say I needed to change my stance. Safety was and remains the biggest concern in any equipment failure that leads to degraded working.

That arrangement sounds crazy. It’s either safe or it’s not, something doesn’t suddenly become unsafe between 119 and 120 minutes.

Evidently someone doesn’t trust someone to fix something without a draconian incentive.

 

[SPADTrap]

That arrangement sounds crazy. It’s either safe or it’s not, something doesn’t suddenly become unsafe between 119 and 120 minutes.

Evidently someone doesn’t trust someone to fix something without a draconian incentive.

Welcome to the modern cost saving railway!

 

[NickBucks]

Mail on Sunday has got hold of this today. Story ( for once) appears to reflect the posts already made about signalling sighting issues.

 

[Hadders]

The Northern City Line is Network Rail. The signalling is life expired - I think it's been mentioned on here that they daren't mve any signals or cables as there's a high risk it'll never work again.

The answer is new signalling but this won't happen just yet.

 

[petersi]

The Northern City Line is Network Rail. The signalling is life expired - I think it's been mentioned on here that they daren't mve any signals or cables as there's a high risk it'll never work again.

The answer is new signalling but this won't happen just yet.

Or likely until CP7 or CP8 (network rails planing periods we are about to enter cp6. The consultants according to this article will be appointed spring this year
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-seeks-east-coast-main-line-etcs-partner.html

Then you got to go through the GRIP project control process etc )

 

[whoosh]

There are issues with right handed signals being viewed from the cabs of 717s. There is a narrower view due to a smaller windscreen and the Driver being sat further back because of new crash standards - crumple zone.

So, stopping further back and SDO 5 for the Northern City Line (NCL) stations gets around this. HOWEVER, that creates problems of its own. Amazingly The Mail on Sunday actually contains some accuracy and also points out that passengers can't be seen to front right of the train. There's a big blind spot where anyone too close to the edge can't be seen. London Underground gets around this by placing barriers around the leading part of platforms - BUT this can't be done on the NCL until Class 313s are ALL withdrawn, as they'd use that part of the platform with their front coach and obviously don't have SDO themselves.

So, GTR have a choice:
•A person on the platform dispatching, making sure the blind spot is clear, is one option. This means using the small windows in the cab doors - not ideal.
•Another option is double-manning the train with a second driver for the NCL part of the journey.
•Or, have a Guard for the NCL.

I can't see Guards being used, so I expect one of the first two options will be implemented.

I expect option 1 is the cheapest, and option 2 will be argued by ASLEF to be better - the right hand side of the cab on 717s has a horn valve and an emergency brake plunger...



The fact is, there's been plenty of time for Network Rail to reposition the signals on the Northern City Line to the left so they can be seen by the Driver of class 717s (their narrower forward view and crumple zone hasn't been a secret, and there have been similar issues with the right hand side signal at Kings Cross platform 10 for class 387s for at least the last two years) but they haven't wanted to.

A bit like how Network Rail had about 40 years to sort out a cleaning regime of the tunnels on this line, but have at long last realised that they do in fact need considerable cleaning now, and will interupt the newly introduced weekend service from December 2019 to finally carry it out - having let it get to the stage of being a big job.

 

[transmanche]

•Or, have a Guard for the NCL.

When the GN services first went over to DOO (back in the late 1980s/early 1990s?), they retained guards for the NCL portion as that hadn't yet been cleared for DOO. Guards boarded/alighted at Finsbury Park and if no guard was available, the service was diverted to King's Cross.

Providing they can ensure sufficient guards are available (or I guess sufficient spare drivers to act as guards, being that GN doesn't have guards), then it's do-able. But any disruption will see services diverted to King's Cross.

 

[Ianno87]

The fact is, there's been plenty of time for Network Rail to reposition the signals on the Northern City Line to the left so they can be seen by the Driver of class 717s (their narrower forward view and crumple zone hasn't been a secret, and there have been similar issues with the right hand side signal at Kings Cross platform 10 for class 387s for at least the last two years) but they haven't wanted to.

By "they haven't wanted to" you presumably mean "nobody has given them any money to advance already eventually planned signalling works and agreed national consensus around re-prioritisation of the national signalling renewals programme to permot this".

 

[whoosh]

They don't want to pay out for repositioning signals or adding co-acting signals for the short time they'd be needed until in-cab signalling (ETCS) is provided for the line.

Understandably.

But nothing has been provided, or thought about until now.

The new trains are sat in sidings dotted around the country, and (again understandably) no-one wants to pay out on major maintenance on the old trains when they are going to be scrapped.

- The usual forward thinking, everything's gone to plan, railway.

 

[petersi]

no-one wants to pay out on major maintenance on the old trains when they are going to be scrapped.

.

Which is plain wrong as there is no time frame for the introduction of the new trains could be June/July
It could be be next year
It could be never

So the passengers are at risk of a worse service while problems which have no time scale for solution are solved

Plus if there is a requirement for 2 drivers the thier introduction is at least 2 Years away while the nessisary drivers are trained and recruited

So time scales for solutions are (at a guess from an outsider)
1 correct signalling end of next decade
2 Train a second driver for Finsbury to Moorgate. Early next decade
3 platform Dispatch May be this year

Or option 4 close the NCL for 3 months while the new trains are introduced. trains run ro Finsbury Park an terminate and use Drayton Park as a reversing siding.

 

[Fred26]

There are issues with right handed signals being viewed from the cabs of 717s. There is a narrower view due to a smaller windscreen and the Driver being sat further back because of new crash standards - crumple zone.

So, stopping further back and SDO 5 for the Northern City Line (NCL) stations gets around this. HOWEVER, that creates problems of its own. Amazingly The Mail on Sunday actually contains some accuracy and also points out that passengers can't be seen to front right of the train. There's a big blind spot where anyone too close to the edge can't be seen. London Underground gets around this by placing barriers around the leading part of platforms - BUT this can't be done on the NCL until Class 313s are ALL withdrawn, as they'd use that part of the platform with their front coach and obviously don't have SDO themselves.

So, GTR have a choice:
•A person on the platform dispatching, making sure the blind spot is clear, is one option. This means using the small windows in the cab doors - not ideal.
•Another option is double-manning the train with a second driver for the NCL part of the journey.
•Or, have a Guard for the NCL.

I can't see Guards being used, so I expect one of the first two options will be implemented.

I expect option 1 is the cheapest, and option 2 will be argued by ASLEF to be better - the right hand side of the cab on 717s has a horn valve and an emergency brake plunger...



The fact is, there's been plenty of time for Network Rail to reposition the signals on the Northern City Line to the left so they can be seen by the Driver of class 717s (their narrower forward view and crumple zone hasn't been a secret, and there have been similar issues with the right hand side signal at Kings Cross platform 10 for class 387s for at least the last two years) but they haven't wanted to.

A bit like how Network Rail had about 40 years to sort out a cleaning regime of the tunnels on this line, but have at long last realised that they do in fact need considerable cleaning now, and will interupt the newly introduced weekend service from December 2019 to finally carry it out - having let it get to the stage of being a big job.

Very informative, thanks.

One thing though - tunnel cleaning is due to start in June, now that NWR have worked out how to do it. At least that's what the GTR brief said...

 

[OwenB]

Which is plain wrong as there is no time frame for the introduction of the new trains could be June/July
It could be be next year
It could be never

I'm surprised a lot of those 313s last week to week, let alone until June-June or longer. The one I was on this morning sounded like a tractor when idling. There really hasn't been any contingency thinking, has there?

 

[717001]

Very informative, thanks.

One thing though - tunnel cleaning is due to start in June, now that NWR have worked out how to do it. At least that's what the GTR brief said...

Can't find a GTR brief on this, do you have a link please?

 

[Class315]

Which is plain wrong as there is no time frame for the introduction of the new trains could be June/July
It could be be next year
It could be never

So the passengers are at risk of a worse service while problems which have no time scale for solution are solved

Plus if there is a requirement for 2 drivers the thier introduction is at least 2 Years away while the nessisary drivers are trained and recruited

So time scales for solutions are (at a guess from an outsider)
1 correct signalling end of next decade
2 Train a second driver for Finsbury to Moorgate. Early next decade
3 platform Dispatch May be this year

Or option 4 close the NCL for 3 months while the new trains are introduced. trains run ro Finsbury Park an terminate and use Drayton Park as a reversing siding.

GTR put out a vacancy for additional station staff for the NCL earlier this year if i recall correctly, the unions had not agreed in unison a safe method of dispatch.

As for option 4, if they closed the NCL for that period of time they could carry out the full tunnel cleaning programme I'm sure it requires 33 days if i recall reading that notice properly.

I do have my skepticisms about the barriers but that's only because i've not seen any visual plans, will they infringe on emergency evacuation routes?!

Years of neglect and under-investment is showing immensely with the recent performance and reliability of the NCL, However the fires at Moorgate have since ceased since NWR have replaced the train stop equipment on platform 9 and have added more bins on the platform which reduce the rubbish build up.

Can't find a GTR brief on this, do you have a link please?

A letter was drawn up by the area manager, who provided an update on NCL issues the only issue not mentioned was 717's.

 

[BowesRanger]

There was at least one cancellation this morning due to a failed 313. The omens are starting to looks bleak without a solution to the NCL issues soon

 

[choochoochoo]

There was at least one cancellation this morning due to a failed 313. The omens are starting to looks bleak without a solution to the NCL issues soon

So many are running slowly too as they have motors isolated. If not cancelled they'll be delayed.

 

[whoosh]

Very informative, thanks.

One thing though - tunnel cleaning is due to start in June, now that NWR have worked out how to do it. At least that's what the GTR brief said...

I think there are various stages to this project - like I said, it's got the stage of being a big deal.
I think there is some work starting in June, but I understand the line will be closed late evenings and weekends again from December for other parts of the project.

I do have my skepticisms about the barriers but that's only because i've not seen any visual plans, will they infringe on emergency evacuation routes?!

I believe it would be a barrier between the platform and the track, on righthandside platforms, at the leading end of the platform. Most tube platforms have one.
It would stop someone falling onto the track, or being too close to the edge of the platform in the driver's (large!) blind spot when the train is positioned set back from the tunnel mouth (to view the righthandside signal).
When in-cab signalling is fitted, the trains can stop at the ends of the platform and the barriers can be removed.

Another way to get around this problem may be to fit an additional camera facing the opposite way, at the other end of the driving vehicles. This could eliminate the blind spot. I believe London Overground class 710s will be fitted with these:

(Note: Class 717s and 700s have the cameras facing backwards on the right hand side, and forwards on the left - which is the other way round to Bombardier trains such as in these diagrams - so for a 717 imagine the blue angles of view being reversed, and the green blind spot being on the front right hand side not the left).

 

[Fred26]

I'm surprised a lot of those 313s last week to week, let alone until June-June or longer. The one I was on this morning sounded like a tractor when idling. There really hasn't been any contingency thinking, has there?

There's a lot like that, but it's nothing new. For several years now they've made that racket.

There was at least one cancellation this morning due to a failed 313. The omens are starting to looks bleak without a solution to the NCL issues soon

Just the one cancellation, I believe. Train broke down at Drayton Park. It's happening quite a bit there lately.

Apparently GTR are once again looking to repair/maintain 313s. I've heard they are ordering parts.

 

[petersi]

I gues that means the 717 project is now on idefinate hold with a few services to keep traction knowledge for drivers

again it shows just how bad the rail industry is at communicating with passengers. This web page on thier site still says spring when in fact they have no idea.
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/a...your-railway/new-trains-for-moorgate-services
A bit of expiation that modern safe train design has made it difficult to safely work with the 1900’s stations in the tunnels would help. Some people are more upderstanding when they understand the reason for the delay in introduction.

 

[choochoochoo]

There's a lot like that, but it's nothing new. For several years now they've made that racket.



Just the one cancellation, I believe. Train broke down at Drayton Park. It's happening quite a bit there lately.

Apparently GTR are once again looking to repair/maintain 313s. I've heard they are ordering parts.

hear the rumour about spare too.

does this mean we might get 313s that can actually reach 75mph again ?

 

[jon0844]

hear the rumour about spare too.

does this mean we might get 313s that can actually reach 75mph again ?

They'll be reaching 75 for sure.

Years.

 

[choochoochoo]

They'll be reaching 75 for sure.

Years.

It would probably take a 313 75 years to get to 75mph these days

 

[deltic08]

Very informative, thanks.

One thing though - tunnel cleaning is due to start in June, now that NWR have worked out how to do it. At least that's what the GTR brief said...

A bit off topic but why do tunnels need cleaning. Is it some kind of chemical reaction with the lining?

Edit. Silly me, just dawned on me that we are talking about Moorgate tunnel cleaning. I was thrown by one poster saying tunnels would made me think of the roof soot in tunnels out of KX not a single tunnel with litter and dust..

 

[BowesRanger]

So worst case scenario... They put the whole thing on hold, and soldier on with the 313s. Does that mean we're realistically waiting a couple of years until ETCS before tge 717s run in full passenger service?

Who carries that can for that level for fck up?

 

[petersi]

Does that mean we're realistically waiting a couple of years until ETCS before tge 717s run in full passenger service?

Who carries that can for that level for fck up?

ETCS is more than couple of years away. If you look at one of my earlier posts your see network rail have not appointed their partner yet.

plus it probably can not happen until the Kings Cross Remodel is complete. Agin deferred from first half 2020 with no date for the major works to start (they are doing prep work now)

 

[OwenB]

Who carries that can for that level for fck up?

Grayling could probably add it to his incredibly long list, even if it's not his fault.

 

[choochoochoo]

Please can someone explain the blindspot issue highlighted in the Daily Mail's lovely illustration.

Why do you need to worry about last minute runners? As long as you can see the doors are closed and nothing is trapped, what difference does seeing those running for the train make ? On some DOO monitored stations even now you can't see the runners as the stairs are at the back of the platform.

 

[Taunton]

Having looked at the newspaper link about this, you know it's a cock-up straight away when the journalist has been told "Safety is our top priority".

 

[bramling]

Please can someone explain the blindspot issue highlighted in the Daily Mail's lovely illustration.

Why do you need to worry about last minute runners? As long as you can see the doors are closed and nothing is trapped, what difference does seeing those running for the train make ? On some DOO monitored stations even now you can't see the runners as the stairs are at the back of the platform.

In all fairness it probably doesn’t matter that much in the grand scheme of things, naturally the main issue is the door dispatch process - which is of course covered by the body side cameras.

However I can see a difficulty that the setup will be *introducing* a risk which wasn’t there before, namely the possibility of people being present at the front of the train and then doing something unusual because of the train unexpectedly stopping short, which didn’t previously happen (can’t remember if 3-car 313s have their own stopping position?). The problem with introducing a new risk is that someone has to put their signature on a piece of paper to say that mitigations have been considered and implemented. That signature could come back to bite very hard should an incident happen down the line.

Unfortunately passengers do strange things, and the railway has to be seen to mitigate as far as possible, no matter how overkill it may seem.

Of course, the proper resolution is resited signals or co-acting signals. But firstly this presumably wasn’t envisaged so can’t be done at the drop of a hat (design, planning, installation, commissioning, testing, sign-off), and secondly will cost £lots of k. Add to the difficulty / cost if the design requires more extensive changes to meet standards, for example altering track circuits.