GN Class 717

marko2

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28 May 2016
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50
I've used the sockets on a 717.

I sometimes wonder what the earth pin is connected to.
The rails, i'd imagine - which will the ground potential for any other exposed metal part of the train. Naturally, this may be some way off actual ground potential measured somewhere else - for instance, a grounding spike near the tracks - but it does't matter as a passenger is never going to experience this.
 
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RailUK Forums

D1012

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8 Jul 2019
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Whether operated by Eastern Region, NSE, WAGN, FCC or GTR, over the years this service has had periods of extreme unreliability. I really don't think that simply changing the operator would make any difference whatsoever.
I've commuted under all those operators on this line and agree that they have all had periods of unreliability. Seems particularly bad over the last three years however. To get back on topic, the 717's are a worthy successor to the 313's with a pleasant environment.
 

tofl

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23 Nov 2018
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Whether operated by Eastern Region, NSE, WAGN, FCC or GTR, over the years this service has had periods of extreme unreliability. I really don't think that simply changing the operator would make any difference whatsoever.
Well looking at Journey Check for Greater Anglia, it shows just three cancellations for the same period. Let's assume that the two companies operate a roughly equivalent number of services, how would one account for this significant difference. Assuming that the Great Northern cancellations are mainly due to shortage of train crew, how do Greater Anglia manage to avoid suffering from the same malaise? Surely it's connected at least to some extent to how the TOC manages their workforce, sets resource levels etc. Or did GTR inherit a group of drivers with contracts that allowed them to have much more choice over when and how much to work, compared to Greater Anglia? One imagines that no-one from senior management of any TOC reads, or at any rate posts on, this forum. Shame as it would be interesting to hear their (honest) side of the story. They may be incompetent but I am sure running a TOC is harder than it might first appear.
 

Mcq

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24 May 2019
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90
It's Friday afternoon, it's half term - let's cancel a few trains - shortage of crew.
What's the expression about how to run a railway - rhetorical.
 

Mcq

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24 May 2019
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Today HN - 2? break down and cancel journeys both ways.
Most other industries would be issuing P45s at this point!
The complacency/monopoly argument arises again.
A more detailed failure description might help?
 

hwl

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Surely the personal safety angle is negative - the lack of easy sight lines makes it more unsafe?
But very positive on crash safety.
Most things are ultimately a compromise. Increased difficulty of grab from behind is a personal safety improvement.

Good lighting and virtually total CCTV coverage are good for personal safety though many people don't perceive the benefits.
 

387star

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16 Nov 2009
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Just travelled on one

Moorgate looks smart with the new tiles hopefully the other ncl stations follow

Regarding 717s they seem fine and power points and wifi are grear

Heard a passenger talking about them and when asked she said they have toilets. Either confusing with thameslink or assuming that they'd have toilets. Can see not having toilets might be a big negative for some .

Legroom and seat hardness a problem but at least the journeys on these trains are very short

Track felt a bit rough out of Drayton park.
 

tofl

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23 Nov 2018
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Winter timetable news: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
"The entire Great Northern Metro timetable will be optimised for the performance of the new train fleet in May 2020."
And here: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/northern-city-line
"From Sunday 15 December 2019 until late May 2020, work to improve the reliability of the railway between Finsbury Park and Moorgate will be taking place weeknights and on weekend.
We have already transformed the line with the introduction of the new Class 717 trains, and now Network Rail will be carrying out intensive maintenance and cleaning of the tunnels; as well as preparatory work ahead of installing a new signalling system which will allow us to run more trains in the future."
 

Failed Unit

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It will be good for those stations to return to the same frequency as they had pre May 2018. I wonder if the May 2020 timetable will be the consultation timetable or of all WGC services will stop at all stations north of Ally Pally again? We shall see.

Maybe for another thread - but anything stopping the morning / evening WGC - Kings Cross terminators running to Sevenoaks?

Going south the paths match, but northbound they don’t so looks like a timetable recast will be needed rather than just ATO, although maybe not my much.

Example.
Sevenoaks Service arrives 1659
Départ Blackfriars. 1700 (with 1702 up its rear)
Arrive Finsbury Park 1715
Départ Finsbury Park 1716

so I suspect it is tweaking and ATO needed rather than heavy recasting.
 
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tofl

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23 Nov 2018
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I asked a GTR person with whom I was corresponding what the plans were for delivering the full consultation timetable and she said it was still the intention and they are working on it but don't want to say a date until they know they can deliver it, not wanting to repeat the previous fiasco.
 

jon0844

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Yep. Back to pre May 2018 frequencies. Progress hey?
I don't know if they'd risk changing the service timings too much yet. While the 717s are bedding in nicely now, and running way ahead of the 313 timings, there's probably a lot to gain from having that padding to aid recovery.

If they try faster turnarounds or all station working too soon it could well end in tears.
 

Failed Unit

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I don't know if they'd risk changing the service timings too much yet. While the 717s are bedding in nicely now, and running way ahead of the 313 timings, there's probably a lot to gain from having that padding to aid recovery.

If they try faster turnarounds or all station working too soon it could well end in tears.
I agree. Would rather see the better performance increase turn-arounds at the country end. Maybe remove the shunt at WGC. Not sure if they will be able to keep the stopper out the way of the Cambridge service however.
 

jon0844

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I agree. Would rather see the better performance increase turn-arounds at the country end. Maybe remove the shunt at WGC. Not sure if they will be able to keep the stopper out the way of the Cambridge service however.
They have to shunt or there's nowhere for the Cambridge train to go.

I suppose if you were very brave you could bring the train at what appears to be xx37 and xx07 in, and run it back out at around xx14 or xx44 to Moorgate instead of to platform 1 to go at xx09 and xx39 respectively. Then soon after comes in the train to form the xx28 and xx58.

You get a more even service and all trains from platform 3 or 4, but have also removed your safety margin.

I think the next big step is 4tph on weekends, or Saturday at least. Make the service a turn up and go offering, with less inconvenience if a train is cancelled.
 

Failed Unit

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They have to shunt or there's nowhere for the Cambridge train to go.

I suppose if you were very brave you could bring the train at what appears to be xx37 and xx07 in, and run it back out at around xx14 or xx44 to Moorgate instead of to platform 1 to go at xx09 and xx39 respectively. Then soon after comes in the train to form the xx28 and xx58.

You get a more even service and all trains from platform 3 or 4, but have also removed your safety margin.

I think the next big step is 4tph on weekends, or Saturday at least. Make the service a turn up and go offering, with less inconvenience if a train is cancelled.
Maybe just me but I would shunt the x44 arrival into platform 1. (Currently leaving at x02). Along with its half hourly counterpart. Would put all kings cross trains on the same island. You do see people hanging around the bridge in delays.

see your point about the buffer.

not sure with the 717s capabilities if they could all stop at Welham Green and Brookmans Park off peak. We shall see I guess. They are close off peak they just need another minute out of the x08 and x38 to stay out the way of the following semi-fast. That looks very possible travelling on them, but the plan is form them not to stop south of Ally Pally anyway.

I doesn’t really make much difference but a true 15 minute interval does look possible. Although it is ally pally to Moorgate that may make it an impossible timetable.
 

choochoochoo

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Think ATO down moorgate might be a while off, even if they get new signalling in. The 717 cab is not set up for ATO like the 700, so trains will have to go be retrofitted. There is no ATO Start / ATO Stop buttons. Perhaps a slight oversight ? (Or maybe they knew it wasn't ever going to be ATO ;) )
 

717001

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4 Aug 2018
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Think ATO down moorgate might be a while off, even if they get new signalling in. The 717 cab is not set up for ATO like the 700, so trains will have to go be retrofitted. There is no ATO Start / ATO Stop buttons. Perhaps a slight oversight ? (Or maybe they knew it wasn't ever going to be ATO ;) )
Not sure of the technicalities but
Network Rail will be carrying out intensive maintenance and cleaning of the tunnels; as well as preparatory work ahead of installing a new signalling system which will allow us to run more trains in the future.
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/northern-city-line
 

choochoochoo

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Curious to know how in-cab signalling only will increase frequency though. Unless they're making more signalling sections in the tunnels. There is a big section between essex road and old street, but the rest of the NCL is pretty tight sections anyway. Also that opens up the nightmare of how to transition/parallel run the old system with the new one.

I'd have thought the improvement comes from ATO running trains closer together than possible with humans.
 

Bald Rick

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Curious to know how in-cab signalling only will increase frequency though. Unless they're making more signalling sections in the tunnels. There is a big section between essex road and old street, but the rest of the NCL is pretty tight sections anyway. Also that opens up the nightmare of how to transition/parallel run the old system with the new one.

I'd have thought the improvement comes from ATO running trains closer together than possible with humans.
You get some with shorter blocks, and some more with ATO. The former runs trains closer together, the latter allows more aggressive (and consistent) braking for stations and speed restrictions; the latter is a particular issue at Moorgate.

IIRC the NCL had 18tph in the peak when the 313s first arrived in the late 70s.
 

choochoochoo

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You get some with shorter blocks, and some more with ATO. The former runs trains closer together, the latter allows more aggressive (and consistent) braking for stations and speed restrictions; the latter is a particular issue at Moorgate.

IIRC the NCL had 18tph in the peak when the 313s first arrived in the late 70s.
If they make shorter blocks then they will not be able to parallel run etcs and conventional system (with longer blocks) at the same time. If it's a case of blanket switchover from one system to the other, I can see 'shortage of train crew' rearing its ugly head again as they'll never have trained all the drivers in time for the switchover.

I don't think there is a 717 simulator so can't even use that to do the training.
 

TRAX

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Curious to know how in-cab signalling only will increase frequency though. Unless they're making more signalling sections in the tunnels. There is a big section between essex road and old street, but the rest of the NCL is pretty tight sections anyway. Also that opens up the nightmare of how to transition/parallel run the old system with the new one.

I'd have thought the improvement comes from ATO running trains closer together than possible with humans.
It’s not cab signalling which enhances frequency, it’s CBTC. And cab signalling comes with that.
 

Bald Rick

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If they make shorter blocks then they will not be able to parallel run etcs and conventional system (with longer blocks) at the same time.
Yes you can. That is precisely how Thameslink ETCS / ATO works. There’s nearly twice as many blocks with ETCS in the core than with conventional signals, and both can (and do) operate at the same time on the same line with consecutive trains.
 

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