GN train hits buffers at Kings Cross

[flimflam]

No malice intended on my part. I'll re-phrase .... :roll:

I sincerely hope this doesn't put the trainee off from continuing with his/her chosen career.

My concern is mainly for the DI who may have years of experience behind him and a nature for wishing to nurture his trainees rather than a confrontational attitude. He may be kicking himself today for not intervening and until we know the facts I'll not comment further on his particular predicament yesterday.

Speaking from experience I'll say this though. I'm also a DI but on the freight. I had a trainee last year who was to be honest quite shocking. Reading his CV you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd be top notch. He wasn't. I had to clump the plunger at below 9 mph approaching a signal because had I not, he would have driven straight past a red aspect. I wasn't the only DI that needed to do this with him either, but after that incident he wasn't my problem any more.

He wasn't up to the job, and yet he passed all the psychometric testing and gave a good interview. They finally managed to get rid of him because he was caught out submitting fraudulent time sheets for when he was supposed to be out route learning. Good riddance was my thoughts.

What I'm saying is that whilst we can feel sorry for the trainee, it's just the start (perhaps) of his career. His DI may well have acted a little late to prevent the incident but every DI should understand the risks. The trainee is his responsibility, if he spads or has another type of incident ultimately it's down to the DI. The DI may have been leaving an obvious error to the last minute to correct hoping the trainee was going to realise the error before it all went wrong. It's a wonder any of us volunteer for it to be honest.

 

[SPADTrap]

Let the games begin...

How fast was he going ? It also goes to show that the TPWS grids are often pointless. Just because you got under the magic 10mph doesn't mean you can't have a collision. Would ATO solve the problem ?

Is the DI responsible ? Technically they are in charge of the train and should have instructed the trainee better. Full brake applications tend to stop the unit very fast. How close should a unit get before the DI hits the plunger ?

5 people got hurt ? Seriously ? Are they planning on making a claim ? You can couple a unit with passengers on and they still don't get "injured" And this required 2 ambulances ! I certainly find them getting "hurt" rather suspicious but maybe I'm being cynical.

Full disclosure :
This isn't a rare occurrence and relatively common. Whilst I don't have specific facts I can categorically state that we have had our fair share of buffer collisions and even one train mounting the platform.

Discuss...

There isn't a plunger on a 317. Having done my training on them the only thing a minder can do is stand close to the trainee which mine did until the trainee can be afforded a little trust? IMO they(the trainee) must shoulder some responsibility, well at least that's how I felt during my training.

 

[flimflam]

There isn't a plunger on a 317. Having done my training on them the only thing a minder can do is stand close to the trainee which mine did until the trainee can be afforded a little trust? IMO they must shoulder some responsibility, well at least that's how I felt during my training.

Nice attitude. "They should shoulder some responsibility "

95% of trainees are spot on, 5% somehow get through when they shouldn't.

 

[ComUtoR]

There isn't a plunger on a 317

Neither do 319's

We have had numerous incidents with DI's and trainees. Not having a way to stop the train in an emergency is certainly exacerbated on older units.

I totally agree that it should be a shared responsibility but remember that trainees have little to no knowledge on how a unit can perform and with the sudden move to shift work it can cause fatigue and various concentration issues. DI's have a thankless task

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I knew a driver that hit the stop blocks at Penzance station well back in BR days.
As he approached the station he got the calling on signal (telling the driver there were coaches in the platform) he slowed to under 8mph, and eased off the brakes when he saw the platform was empty. Then a cleaner (they had wanted the train in the sunshine outside the station canopy!) held his hand up to stop, so reapplied the brakes - every wheel on the train stopped and skidded almost the length of the platform to the buffers, hitting them at less than 3mph.
After an enquiry, it was put down to oil on the rails etc.

 

[SPADTrap]

Nice attitude. "They should shoulder some responsibility "

95% of trainees are spot on, 5% somehow get through when they shouldn't.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, I was talking about the trainees shouldering some of the responsibility. I very much felt that by the time I was doing my hours if I messed up it was squarely my fault, minders cannot stand over you all the time.

I trust you misread my comment, if not PM me and I'll clear up whatever misunderstanding you have. If not I fail to see how having a responsibility attitude as a trainee can be a bad thing.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think/hope he was being complimentary.

It's a positive attitude to have. Some of ours are of the mind that nothing is their fault.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think/hope he was being complimentary.

It's a positive attitude to have. Some of ours are of the mind that nothing is their fault.

I was. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I agree it is a shared responsibility and I also understand that ultimately the trainee is on the minders licence but when I was a trainee I know how I would have felt had my minder been inches from me just in case I made a mistake. My minder gave me the trust and with that I recognised the responsibility of mistakes landing with me and I accept and encourage that on the part of a trainee. After all before you know it you're out alone and then isn't the time to get used to responsibility. DOO dispatch is a great example.

You're right about DIs having a thankless task though. It is a massive risk! Thankfully mine were fantastic!

 

[the sniper]

They've asked me numerous times if I'll do Guard instructing. Just as a Guard you can make monumental mistakes from out of the blue in seconds, having witnessed/know about trainees having done this I honestly do not fancy instructing at all. You've got to be like a hawk watching the trainee and if they screw up it's on your head, I don't think I've got the nerves for that. And for the money they offer, it isn't worth the risk.

 

[A-driver]

Hmmm, lots of conclusions being jumped to. The DI is in charge of the train so the trainee is driving on the DOs licence. That's just how it is. What happened here is a very unfortunate set of circumstances which the DI could never have been expected to respond to, plunger/controls their side or not.

What I will say is that why this is obviously a potentially serious incident and why there were apparently some injuries the buffers actually just did exactly what they are designs to do and stopped the train before the line ran out. Same as a tpws activation, whilst serious, is actually just a safety system doing exactly what it was built to do. It wasn't like this was a high speed collision, the train was travelling very slowly at the time.

 

[najaB]

What I will say is that why this is obviously a potentially serious incident and why there were apparently some injuries the buffers actually just did exactly what they are designs to do and stopped the train before the line ran out.

Are they hydraulic buffers?

 

[A-driver]

Are they hydraulic buffers?

No. They are just standard buffers there for the purpose of stopping trains overrunning the line.

 

[Captain Slow]

I was. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I agree it is a shared responsibility and I also understand that ultimately the trainee is on the minders licence but when I was a trainee I know how I would have felt had my minder been inches from me just in case I made a mistake. My minder gave me the trust and with that I recognised the responsibility of mistakes landing with me and I accept and encourage that on the part of a trainee. After all before you know it you're out alone and then isn't the time to get used to responsibility. DOO dispatch is a great example.

You're right about DIs having a thankless task though. It is a massive risk! Thankfully mine were fantastic!

I felt exactly the same whilst I was training. The DI was there as a "safety net" but he still is potentially powerless to do anything e.g. in the situation above (especially on older stock) or a wrongside door release. A split second is all it takes to make a massive and potentially huge error.

As a trainee (and indeed a qualified driver) I think there's something wrong if the prospect of making a mistake doesn't scare you slightly (not saying you should be driving along sh*tting yourself, mind)-I would have been utterly devastated had any mistake I made come back on my minder. However, that's just the way it is.

I feel for the minder and the trainee in this incident-neither came to work to make a mistake that morning, let alone one like that.

 

[colchesterken]

Wonder how much it will cost to mend the bent 317 and the buffers?

 

[PermitToTravel]

When will the RAIB report on it likely be published (might be worth locking this thread until then)?

Is this serious enough for the RAIB to bother investigating? It doesn't sound like it

 

[bramling]

Is this serious enough for the RAIB to bother investigating? It doesn't sound like it

Even a low-speed collision can be quite nasty for those on board, especially as in these sorts of incidents those on the train don't have any prior indication of any impact until it happens, so no time to hold a handrail or whatever.

I've been on a train (in depot) which was "rough shunted" into another train at well under 10 mph, still enough for people to fall over, as well as for things like lighting diffusers and advertising poster cards to become dislodged.

So whilst a minor incident in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't be surprised to see the RAIB investigate.

 

[ian959]

Is this serious enough for the RAIB to bother investigating? It doesn't sound like it

Since there are resulting injuries I would think that the RAIB are compelled to investigate?

 

[bluenoxid]

It's not the seriousness that is the only criteria for an RAIB investigation.

 

[455driver]

Since there are resulting injuries I would think that the RAIB are compelled to investigate?

RAIB might phone up to see if it has been established what went wrong and if everything is known then there is no point the RAIB investigating.

 

[A-driver]

RAIB were involved as far as they interviewed the trainee and DI. Don't know if they will want to take it further.

 

[Scott M]

How can a train actually hit buffers? Surely you'd be going at such a slow speed you'd have ample time to apply the break, so why would you happily allow a train to run into them?

I'm not a driver yet I would back myself to stop a train before the buffers lol.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How can a train actually hit buffers? Surely you'd be going at such a slow speed you'd have ample time to apply the break, so why would you happily allow a train to run into them?

I'm not a driver yet I would back myself to stop a train before the buffers lol.

Grease on the rails would be one obvious thing that would defeat even the most experienced driver.

 

[455driver]

How can a train actually hit buffers? Surely you'd be going at such a slow speed you'd have ample time to apply the break, so why would you happily allow a train to run into them?

I'm not a driver yet I would back myself to stop a train before the buffers lol.

Once you start driving (so you will know what you are talking about ) you will appreciate the delay between putting the brake (note the spelling) handle in and the brakes actually starting to bite, it can be up to 3 or 4 seconds, if the train then starts sliding or you need to put more brake in you will have used up half your available stopping distance and be in a spot of bother.

It aint a computer game where everything works instantly!

Oh I like your assumption that the trainee didn't put the brake in, <deleted>

 

[Retorus]

Once you start driving (so you will know what you are talking about ) you will appreciate the delay between putting the brake (note the spelling) handle in and the brakes actually starting to bite, it can be up to 3 or 4 seconds, if the train then starts sliding or you need to put more brake in you will have used up half your available stopping distance and be in a spot of bother.

It aint a computer game where everything works instantly!

Oh I like your assumption that the trainee didn't put the brake in, <deleted> !

Could have explained it without the unnecessary hostility.

 

[DaleCooper]

Could have explained it without the unnecessary hostility.

I know nothing about driving a train but I can understand and sympathise with 455driver's reaction.

 

[MCR247]

Could have explained it without the unnecessary hostility.

I think in this case it is fair enough

 

[Crossover]

I know nothing about driving a train but I can understand and sympathise with 455driver's reaction.

I think in this case it is fair enough

I'd agree with that, too

 

[Peter Mugridge]

*also backs up 455 driver*

 

[High Dyke]

Let the games begin...

How fast was he going ? It also goes to show that the TPWS grids are often pointless. Just because you got under the magic 10mph doesn't mean you can't have a collision. Would ATO solve the problem ?...

5.1 mph, OTMR download.

 

[A-driver]

It wasn't a case of the trainee not aiming to put the brake in or not seeing the stops etc, as far as the trainee AND DI were concerned the train approached the stops at a very sensible speed and at a reasonable distance the trainee did go to apply the brake.

As I say, it was a very unfortunate set of circumstances and I can't see how much will come out of this. It's not the kind of thing they can change rules or practices over, sometimes things just happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How can a train actually hit buffers? Surely you'd be going at such a slow speed you'd have ample time to apply the break, so why would you happily allow a train to run into them?

I'm not a driver yet I would back myself to stop a train before the buffers lol.

Clearly your knowledge on anything train driving related is so limited that it's not really worth you taking the time to post such speculative posts.

Your are millions of miles off of what actually happened here and even further off how an incident like this could occur or in fact how any driver related incident occurs.