Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Bastiaan]

Apart from the core section, I honestly cannot see why many people would want to travel from purley to cambridge for example.

They won't. But people from Purley will want to travel to St. Pancras and from Cambridge to London Bridge area. That's the idea behind linking different lines across the city and it's used in various urban transport networks around the world.

Wimbledon Loop - I know not popular but I did support terminating at Blackfriars if frequency was to double. And London Bridge trains too.

On the Catford Loop, if not Thameslink then some Victoria trains need to be introduced as per years of talk. Although it's the age old South London conundrum of 2tph to various termini - I'd rather consolidate and have higher frequencies.

I entirely agree. I even think the service pattern on the suburban railway lines in South London are a bit of a mess and still will be after the completion of Thameslink. The main reason for this, is that most lines connect every place with every place, and although on some combined routes the frequency is higher, most journeys can only be made twice in an hour. This combined with an old railway system at the max of its capacity, makes the service unattractive, inefficient and unreliable. I think when each line serves only one destination, but with higher frequencies like 4-8 tph, and with good (cross platform) connections at knots, the service will be much more effective. The Dutch railways have used this approach the last decade in the most populated areas and it sure helped making the service more attractive and reliable. The next decades it will be further developed under the title 'traveling without timetable' or 'every ten minutes a train'. It means every corridor will have 6 fast and 6 slow trains per hour. The drawback is that to reach a destination on an other corridor a change of trains is needed, though the waiting time is never longer than 10 minutes.

 

[telstarbox]

Even if there are no end-to-end passengers, running long through services avoids having to turn trains in the core and thus means that more trains can be run on both sides of the Thames in the peaks.

It also means more journeys between north of London and south of London can be made with a single step-free or cross-platform connection at East Croydon and other stations, rather than a potentially more disruptive Underground transfer: Norwich, Sheffield, Leicester, Milton Keynes to Brighton, Hastings, Southampton, etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apart from the core section, I honestly cannot see why many people would want to travel from purley to cambridge for example.

Not many people want to travel from Morden to High Barnet, or Epping to Ealing either.

 

[djh1986]

Does anyone know what will happen to the "FCC ONLY" tickets on the Brighton mainline? These are good value between London and Brighton and it'll be a disgrace if they're scrapped overnight when Govia take over Thameslink.

 

[physics34]

Not many people want to travel from Morden to High Barnet, or Epping to Ealing either.

yeah, suppose you're right

 

[cle]

If Victoria is a push (even though the SE station is criminally underused and deserted half the time, I understand Southern are getting P8 permanently) - now that the Wimbledon loop is saved for the time being, could some additional Bellingham/Bromley shuttles run from the Blackfriars bays?

Would at least define the Catford Loop as running to Blackfriars only, rather than the age-old split, and would definitely help demand (as all increases in London do).

 

[jopsuk]

"FCC Only" on the Brighton Mainline goes. I'm wondering what will happen to the current "Southern & AGA" tickets from Cambridge to Portsmouth (and a few other stations)? "TSGN & AGA" wouldn't work as it would allow travel on the fast KGX-CBG services which the "Southern & AGA" routing is intended to prohibit.

 

[Fincra5]

Will probably be removed as its all once company. Thats a guess though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone know what will happen to the "FCC ONLY" tickets on the Brighton mainline? These are good value between London and Brighton and it'll be a disgrace if they're scrapped overnight when Govia take over Thameslink.

They are removed as required by the franchise spec. No question, this has been known to be happening for ages.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone know what will happen to the "FCC ONLY" tickets on the Brighton mainline? These are good value between London and Brighton and it'll be a disgrace if they're scrapped overnight

They're going.

The mandarins at DafT don't like competition or good value for passengers.

 

[jon0844]

They're going.

The mandarins at DafT don't like competition or good value for passengers.

I know it's not going to be popular for me to say, and even I don't like the idea of losing cheaper tickets, but playing devil's advocate here - it does make sense to have more simple fares.

A lot of people probably fall foul of buying the wrong ticket, or even more likely, paying too much by not knowing about the cheaper tickets.

As we now know, the competition isn't so much on ticketing but on companies competing to win a franchise. And this new franchise appears to be much more like a concession/management contract than something where Govia will be encouraged to invest its own money on future improvements. The company will simply do what it's told to do in a very detailed specification.

Or at least that's my take on it - as I am not entirely sure how it's all set up.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know it's not going to be popular for me to say, and even I don't like the idea of losing cheaper tickets, but playing devil's advocate here - it does make sense to have more simple fares.

It's funny how "simpler" always means "more expensive" and "with more onerous restrictions".

Perhaps I'll be wrong and they'll match the new fares at the lowest price point of the current fares, or even at the median point. I bet they won't, though. All fares will be ramped up to the most expensive one available now.

 

[matchmaker]

The branding would seem to be simply "Thameslink" if the image on the DfT announcement is to be believed, and mainly in white.

FirstGroup's first loss of a franchise since Great Eastern in 2004.

And now the Caledonian Sleeper...

 

[jon0844]

It's funny how "simpler" always means "more expensive" and "with more onerous restrictions".

Perhaps I'll be wrong and they'll match the new fares at the lowest price point of the current fares, or even at the median point. I bet they won't, though. All fares will be ramped up to the most expensive one available now.

I fear that will be the case. It would be nice to see the Government actually make it somewhere in between, or even based on the cheapest fare, if it wants to be seen to be helping the passengers - but that's not going to happen, is it?!

What I assume can now happen is that tickets can be clearly marked that they're not valid on Gatwick Express, which means it will be able to properly charge more money than the farcical situation we have now.

 

[Dave1987]

It's funny how "simpler" always means "more expensive" and "with more onerous restrictions".

Perhaps I'll be wrong and they'll match the new fares at the lowest price point of the current fares, or even at the median point. I bet they won't, though. All fares will be ramped up to the most expensive one available now.

Funny how a lot of the restrictions in this country harp back to the BR era! It's one of the reasons ticket "splitting" is much cheaper because the stupid old BR ticket areas are still in effect.

 

[sarahj]

Not sure how more restrictions come into it. If you buy a FCC only ticket and travel on a Southern train your happy conductor will sell you a brand new ticket.
No more FCC only tickets, your conductor will say welcome aboard (possibly). And if there are still TL tickets out there and your on the 'wrong' train your happyish conductor will sell you an excess*, or might just go, cheers' and move on.


* yes, I know its a brand and not a sep company, and dispite all the chat on here about southern only tickets and gatex trying, to inform some others about the band/company issue is like banging your head on a brick wall :roll:

Other 'brands' I've used out there:
Welcome aboard this 'hove shuttle'
Welcome aboard this 'Brighton Express'

 

[RichardN]

I can't see this one lasting long after the merger...

http://www.brfares.com/#!faredetail?orig=HRH&dest=HEN&ldn=1&tkt=SDR

 

[mister-sparky]

If Victoria is a push (even though the SE station is criminally underused and deserted half the time, I understand Southern are getting P8 permanently) - now that the Wimbledon loop is saved for the time being, could some additional Bellingham/Bromley shuttles run from the Blackfriars bays?

But isn't the reason for this the lack of track capacity into Victoria? Due to the main via Herne Hill, and the Catford Loop being only 2 tracks each?

 

[Deepgreen]

Deep in the press release is the promise to introduce "timetables designed to improve punctuality". I may be an old cynic but this says to me - increased journey times/timetable slacks to increase chances of on-time arrival at termini. My Southern trains from Redhill NEVER arrive at London Bridge on time (no exaggeration, in two years' travelling on this route now, the 0830 and 0840 departures from Redhill have literally never arrived at London Bridge on time!).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not sure how more restrictions come into it. If you buy a FCC only ticket and travel on a Southern train your happy conductor will sell you a brand new ticket.

There will be fewer restrictions in this case, because there will only be the highest fare left. But in other cases of "simplification" the restrictions have worsened, especially around peak/off-peak and when the various TOC-specific "bargain" fares became the "advance" ticket type.

It'll be interesting how they deal with Gatwick Express, as it still isn't a separate company under the new franchise.

 

[Bald Rick]

Deep in the press release is the promise to introduce "timetables designed to improve punctuality". I may be an old cynic but this says to me - increased journey times/timetable slacks to increase chances of on-time arrival at termini. My Southern trains from Redhill NEVER arrive at London Bridge on time (no exaggeration, in two years' travelling on this route now, the 0830 and 0840 departures from Redhill have literally never arrived at London Bridge on time!).

Or as in this case, generally shorter journey times - at least on the main lines, but a better spread of services so they don't interfere with each other so much. Also longer turnarounds at the London termini so a late inbound has more chance of being outbound on time.

One presumes you weren't on the 0830 last Wednesday then?

 

[Deerfold]

Deep in the press release is the promise to introduce "timetables designed to improve punctuality". I may be an old cynic but this says to me - increased journey times/timetable slacks to increase chances of on-time arrival at termini. My Southern trains from Redhill NEVER arrive at London Bridge on time (no exaggeration, in two years' travelling on this route now, the 0830 and 0840 departures from Redhill have literally never arrived at London Bridge on time!).

I have to say this seems to be the one circumstance where it makes sense to increase the time in timetables - where trains blatently cant keep to the current one. Similarly I'd rather the EC arrival at Kings X at 0859 in the morning was timed a little later as it very rarely makes it (on a Monday at least) - so it'd be better that people could plan for it being a few minutes later.

 

[cle]

But isn't the reason for this the lack of track capacity into Victoria? Due to the main via Herne Hill, and the Catford Loop being only 2 tracks each?

I don't think so on the Southeastern side. Certainly not in terms of platforms!

There are three tracks (third being the bi-di used by the Dartford) and also Stewart's Lane and the Atlantic lines as options. The Catford Loop itself is very underused, especially off peak.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The Catford Loop itself is very underused, especially off peak.

It's appears underused as there are pathways for freight trains, just in case they do run or traffic picks up.

 

[Minstral25]

Deep in the press release is the promise to introduce "timetables designed to improve punctuality". I may be an old cynic but this says to me - increased journey times/timetable slacks to increase chances of on-time arrival at termini. My Southern trains from Redhill NEVER arrive at London Bridge on time (no exaggeration, in two years' travelling on this route now, the 0830 and 0840 departures from Redhill have literally never arrived at London Bridge on time!).

Agree completely, my usual the 7:04 Redhill to Victoria has been on-time at Clapham or Victoria depending where I get off just three times this year so far. I catch it at least 4 times a week.

I think that is a general problem for most trains to and from Redhill in he peaks though as I hear similar problems on other Peak Services.

 

[infobleep]

The 17.27 to Ore is often 3-5 minutes late. Recently the punctuality of the Littlehampton morning service to Victoria [arrives Clapham Junction at 8.17/18] has improved so may be with the new franchise and timetables, things will improve further. Saying that I thought the Littlehampton service was on time today but we've just left East Croydon 2 minutes late, so what do I know. Just the way it goes.

Let's not forget someone gets fined for those 2 minutes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[talldave]

Will the "Not Underground" versions of FCC only tickets survive?? For example, the £10.50 Off-Peak Return Gatwick-City Thameslink.

They are a cheap way of using Southern services to London Bridge !

 

[Vicpaul]

The diagrams are incredibly tight. As travellers and staff alike will know we run many different formation sizes and this ain't accounted for in diagramming or so I'm led to believe.

 

[A-driver]

The diagrams are incredibly tight. As travellers and staff alike will know we run many different formation sizes and this ain't accounted for in diagramming or so I'm led to believe.

The diagrams involved in thameslink will all be completely re-written with little resemblance to current work. Some depots will loose work or rather gain other routes. I doubt your depot will pick up 700 or TL work but may gain other roads as other depots may loose non TL work.

Not sure u follow your point re formations-it's part if the job. Not ideal but the way it is.

 

[Fincra5]

The diagrams are incredibly tight. As travellers and staff alike will know we run many different formation sizes and this ain't accounted for in diagramming or so I'm led to believe.

Well for example they time from Littlehampton to Angmering as a 4 car 377. Of course if you have a 12 you will loose time due to the speeds over Arundel Junction etc.