Great Northern Class 700 diagrams?

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by JonathanPrince, 11 Oct 2017.

  1. JonathanPrince

    JonathanPrince Member

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    Hello,

    I've just seen a class 700 on a King's Cross to Cambridge service today - shame I wasn't on it...

    Just wondering if there are any diagrams around yet if I wanted to catch one. I've yet to go on one so far, having missed one by a couple of seconds at Luton! I know they're coming in properly next year for the Thameslink services (RIP 365s :( ).

    Thanks!

    P.S. a picture in case proof's needed... (Only just caught it as it went past) IMG_20171011_121403443.jpg
     
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  3. A0wen

    A0wen Established Member

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    Try Luton again - there seems to be no shortage of them there.... ;)
     
  4. Class 466

    Class 466 Member

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    There are no 700s in services on the GN yet - this was just a test run.
     
  5. JonathanPrince

    JonathanPrince Member

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    Oh ok cool! I was quite lucky then! Not complaining of course - we're luckier here than some with 6 (nearly 7) classes around.

    I'm planning a trip on the Thameslink ones in London soon anyway.
     
  6. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    You probably won’t be saying that once you’ve been on one. The longer they stay away from the GN the better, in my opinion.
     
  7. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I wouldn’t say that. They will be very welcome at the weekend as they can’t be sent out as 4 cars. Hopefully when they appear we will at least be able to get on the train. Not something that you can be certain of on a 4 coach 387.
     
  8. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    What do you mean by rip 365s? At least 19 units will be remaining.
     
  9. JonathanPrince

    JonathanPrince Member

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    Yes - but I would guess mostly on the Peterborough line as that's where they've been migrating to at the moment
     
  10. adamedwards

    adamedwards Member

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    Would I be right to assume completion of the platform works at Foxton an Shepreth will lead to an 8 car railway using 365s cascaded out by 700s until enough 700s are in service to take over?
     
  11. wipers

    wipers Member

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    Agreed. What's interesting tho' is that the SWR Class 707's feel completely different internally to me - I think the drab Thameslink interiors have a lot to answer for personally. They already look dated and dull and the full fleet isn't even in service yet.
     
  12. class387

    class387 Established Member

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    Anyway, regardless of whether the 700s are better than the 365s (they aren't), does anyone have an update on when they enter service on the GN? November is fast approaching.
     
  13. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    November was the last we heard. On the London - Peterborough fast services. So if i see one at KX will let you know.
     
  14. Dunnyrail

    Dunnyrail Member

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    Last night I was travelling to Cambridge and whilst talking to a very nice family who's young son was Train Mad was advised that she had been told by the Guard(?) that there would be 2 700's working from Peterborough next week. Perhaps worth keeping an eye out for. My search yesterday for any Diagram information came up zilch with only this thread, builder and TOC waffle. So serious lack of positive gen at the moment.
    JonD
     
  15. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    It was reported here before that there could be some services in the first week of November, so hopefully it is true.

    Not that I expect everyone is getting excited and despite being TL branded, it's clearly going to be a GN service so I assume first class will be in operation at both ends?

    (this may upset even more people who at least make for the rear of TL 700 services!)
     
  16. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    From what I have seen from various informed sources, the initial deployments will replace 12 car 365 workings on the London - Peterborough route (fast)
    When you consider the 12 car fast workings are.
    1707 Kings Cross - Peterborough
    1737 Kings Cross - Peterborough
    1807 Kings Cross - Peterborough

    Not sure if 1837 Kings Cross - Peterborough is 8 or 12 car.

    I could of course be making 2+2 = 5 but that is where I expect to see them first. If I see one in the flesh on any of these services I will let the forum know.

    I agree with Jon - will be amazed if they will declasify one end when on great northern - a 12 car 365 was 72 first class seats (if I have calculated it correctly) so more than the FLU will offer.
     
  17. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    If the units are being introduced on Peterborough workings only then where the units come into Kings Cross from is a consideration when looking at which services will get 700s first - therefore a working which comes off Hornsey is more likely to get a 700 rather than one which currently comes from Ely or joins up at Kings Cross - the latter needs a timetable rewrite.

    So, looking solely at RTT, it looks like the 1737 is a good bet since stock comes empty from Hornsey depot rather than the 1807 which comes from a join of Peterborough and Ely arrivals.

    Also, of course, platforms 9 to 11 can't take a 12-car 700.

    All of this should narrow down the likely services which can go 700 in the short term.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2017
  18. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    1707 KX-Peterborough is 2x365, but 1737 is 3x365.

    1807 KX-Peterborough is 3x365, but in the current timetable the units for this service join at King's Cross, so that rules that service out without some kind of timetable alteration.

    Without having any official documentation immediately to hand, my money would be on 1737 KX-Peterborough, plus one of the XX12/XX42 Peterborough services. This makes at least two diagrams which come in from Hornsey and don't do anything else.

    There are some similar morning peak workings as well.

    Aside from that, the current timetable has plenty of 8-car 365 diagrams which work as a pair all day, which could feasibly have the undesiro conversion.

    EDIT: Having a look at the diagrams, the 1742 KX-Peterborough and 1812 KX-Peterborough work, they come off Hornsey and go on to stable at Peterborough, for which there are balancing workings in the morning which come off Peterborough and stable at Hornsey after the morning peak. The 1737 KX-Peterborough currently comes back to Hornsey afterwards, whilst what would be the morning balancing working involves a diagram which later divides. So to put undesiros on the 1737 KX-Peterborough would require adjustments to the timetable - which is of course quite possible. Reduction in seating availability on any of these services won't be popular by any means, but that's a different issue.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2017
  19. Bishopstone

    Bishopstone Established Member

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    I think they'll declassify first class in the rear coach, to set-up a consistent policy ready for the day the 700s are introduced to TL services on GN metals.

    Also, 'You can use the rear first class section!' is a handy social media response to those expressing disappointment at the lack of tables/sockets/legroom in Standard, as we saw with the TL introduction, and I think they'll want to hold that card to play as necessary.
     
  20. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I don’t as that would be a massive reduction in 1st class seats compared to the 365s. Remember the 365s actually have decent first class, so downgraded accommodation and less of it, is a sure way to upset your premium customers.

    I can see them running the service back to Hornsey in the beginning if I recall the 387s cycled around Hornsey in the beginning and didn’t spend the night away.

    Seems like hand around kings Cross between 1700 and 1800 you are likely to find it.
     
  21. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    The premium customers have already been upset several times over with the 387s. First of all with the seating being no improvement at all over standard and with the area being a gangway for people walking through the train, then with the lottery of which end of the train it will be and the initial signage issues which meant all and sundry were using it.

    The handing and signage issues have been resolved after several months, but the other issues persist.

    There are way more first-class passengers on the Cambridge route than Peterborough. I'd say many or most first users on the Peterborough route tend to be either railway staff with or without various forms of pass or standard users chancing it - especially off-peak.

    Combining all these variables, I can't see declassifying one end being too much of an issue. It would more or less *have* to happen on services where RLUs replace 2x365 (remember many such services which were once 2x317/321). The difficulty with GN is it would be preferable to declassify the country end on all services, rather than the rear, but this starts to introduce complication. What's the betting Govia go and do something daft, like declassifying the *London* end on everything, matching the 387s? ;)
     
  22. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Maybe they'll move first class to the middle of the train or something!
     
  23. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Looking at things logically, from a GN point of view I think they could get away with abolishing first altogether on everything except fast or semi-fast Cambridge / Ely / Kings Lynn services.

    I can't see first going altogether from the undesiros though, as I think it would be politically unacceptable on certain routes south of the river.

    Of course, forgive the cynicism, but if the class 700 design was *so* heavily influenced by the need to minimise dwell times in the core, first would go too. Those pesky tables and dividing doors must cause so much trouble, especially as a number of core platforms have entrances and exits at the ends. But needs must, if only for certain people who wax lyrical about the class 700 design, yet make a bee-line for the declassified section when they use one themselves, presumably so they can enjoy the more comfortable seats and presence of tables!
     
  24. Triumph

    Triumph Member

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    The 12 car off 1P05 0656 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P68 1812 KGX-PBO &
    The 12 car off 1P49 0733 PBO-KGX is booked to work 1P66 1742 KGX-PBO
    when the diagrams were rehashed in May this was done for a reason.
    There is also another 12 car off 1P07 which does 1P94 and returns to Hornsey, however that only needs a small alteration to balance the stock and you have 3 ready made diagrams for 700/1's!
     
  25. philjo

    philjo Established Member

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    The 17:07 from Kings Cross is booked to leave from platform 8 though it seems to change regularly - I think it went from a different platform nearly every day last week!
    It certainly went from 9 one day and I have seen it a few times leave from 11 recently (I was getting the 17:23 Royston service on those days).
     
  26. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    A couple of months ago someone posted that the first trains to be 700s would be the 0656 from Peterborough and the 1742 from Kings Cross.

    The introduction of 700s on the GN is not going to be popular. The only positive I can see is the end of 4-car workings off-peak but this could've been achieved with trains with a better interior design.
     
  27. sefton

    sefton Member

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    If the intention is to change the 6.56 from a 365 to a 700 then GN's customers in St Neots are not going to be happy.

    It is just about possible to get a seat on that train now, but with 51 fewer seats there will be a lot of people standing for the 40 minute journey.
     
  28. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    51 people unhappy I guess. ;)

    Given the problems this morning on Thameslink, with delayed services and a deluge of people coming over by bus from Hatfield, that extra standing room makes all the difference.

    I think that while you'll get some upset about not getting seats, the next time there's any disruption and an earlier train is cancelled, people will be happier knowing they can likely get on a busy train than a crush loaded one.
     
  29. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    It’s okay for people from somewhere like Hatfield where it’s just a 20-minute hop to Finsbury Park. People living further out don’t appreciate having to stand for potentially an hour, more if there’s a delay.

    GN users for further out generally aren’t used to standing for long periods, unless one is desperate to be in the front carriage for a quick getaway at King’s Cross.
     
  30. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I appreciate that, but if there's any increase in service frequency then hopefully there will be seats for those 51 people on other services (or the same, as other people use other trains). Once the new 2018 timetable is set, I guess we'll know the overall numbers.

    If there are more seats per hour, nobody is really losing out. I am not referring to losing out as in the quality of the seats, ambience etc.
     
  31. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    There’ll be more seats per hour at Off peak times but I think there will be fewer in the peaks.

    I don’t think any more trains will be running in the peaks (as the line is at capacity). I did an analysis of the proposed timetable compared to the current timetable from stevenage and the overall number of trains was in the peaks was identical to now. I don’t think there’s anything in the high peak running as 4-car so the only possible increase in in seats during the peaks can come from a 12-car service replacing an 8 but how many of these will there actually be given that the majority of the 700s are 8-car?

    But then you have to factor in the reduction in seats where an 8-car 700 replaces an 8-car 365, and a 12-car 700 replaces a 12-car 365.
     

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