• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Grimsby train worker sacked, TPE South staff plan strike.

Status
Not open for further replies.

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
However, this process needs to be treated as a learning and education exercise, not a disciplinary process, unless it turns up gross negligence on the part of the employee.

I think TPE have used the Gross Misconduct chestnut no less than forty times in five years, from everything ranging from Driver Spads (how is that intentional?) to booking office accounting incidents. Running joke that almost anything there carriesm the gross misconduct charge at present... Andy Warnock Smith, RMTs senior full time rep mentioned not so long ago virtually every case he sees at TPE carries at least one Gross Misconduct charge.

Either there's an exceptionally 'naughty' bunch of staff, or the people running the investigations are away with the fairies. :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,535
Location
Birmingham
There is nothing wrong with doing an after-incident review to see if any improvement can be made regarding the handling of incidents, and in a cool detached manner seeing if the split-second decision can be improved. This information should then be given to staff to help them in dealing with a similar situation.

However, this process needs to be treated as a learning and education exercise, not a disciplinary process, unless it turns up gross negligence on the part of the employee. Even if a failure to follow policy, the reasons why must be given proper weight.
Exactly. When a split second decision has a potentially safer outcome than what the 'rulebook' says, then it's disgusting to punish the employee for using their common sense and 'breaking' the rules. It sounds like TPE see following the rules hard and fast, no exceptions, as more important than preventing someone dying/being dismembered. From what I've read so far (but there may well be more to it) TPE management's attitude is vile.

Surely a review of the 'rules' is more appropriate, rather than disciplinary action? The conductor may well have more years in the job than the person sacking him, yet they know best? I really don't think a sacking was a fair response to a non-incident.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Surely a review of the 'rules' is more appropriate, rather than disciplinary action?

The railway rule book is, for a good reason, watertight and inflexible, simply to protect everyone working under them.The main issue with companies like TPE is the plethora of 'Other, Company-Specific Rules' they invent which they consider more important that the railway rules. As many traincrew feel, much of these additional 'company' rules are pointless.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Someone's pointed out to me that most RMT members voted against a strike but most voted for action short of a strike. The action short of a strike includes a ban on volunteering to work Sundays while the RMT are saying there will be strikes on Sundays.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,773
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Exactly. When a split second decision has a potentially safer outcome than what the 'rulebook' says, then it's disgusting to punish the employee for using their common sense and 'breaking' the rules. It sounds like TPE see following the rules hard and fast, no exceptions, as more important than preventing someone dying/being dismembered. From what I've read so far (but there may well be more to it) TPE management's attitude is vile.

Surely a review of the 'rules' is more appropriate, rather than disciplinary action? The conductor may well have more years in the job than the person sacking him, yet they know best? I really don't think a sacking was a fair response to a non-incident.

It's a difficult balance to get right, because following the Rule Book is one of the most important things expected of railway staff. When asked by staff "should I do X?", the standard response should always be "Do what the Rule Book says, consider everything from the point of view you might need to justify your action in a court of law and how to ensure your back is covered". The Rule Book is there for a reason, and the saying "every rule is written in blood" is very true.

However, speaking from experience, when dealing with an issue involving train staff, I will always listen to what the member of staff says, and consider their actions in the context of the heat of the moment. I certainly wouldn't automatically seek to discipline someone just because they haven't followed the letter of the Rule Book. It doesn't help that some railway rules can be quite vague - the current London Underground Rule Book contains 'grey areas' where it doesn't totally clarify in precise detail what you can and can't do. I've heard it said that this is partly deliberate in order to give some flexibility in deciding how to manage an incident. I often find myself looking back to older publications when a member of staff asks "what should I do in X situation?", simply because they tend to give much more detailed information, whilst it's not ideal quoting superseded documentation, I don't regard it as acceptable to quote my own opinion without having at least something in print to back it up.

I think a lot of the time problems develop when there are managers who don't have trains experience. This doesn't mean they have to have been drivers for XX years, but in my view appreciation and knowledge of railway procedures, and some experience of what it's like on the front of a train, is essential for dealing with trains incidents. I know one particular manager who can quote the Rule Book inside out, but if anyone asks her "why" a particular rule exists, she has no idea.

In my view, taking things down the disciplinary route unnecessarilydoesn't help anyone. It means the employee concerned is off the trains for weeks. Drivers are paid to drive trains, not to sit at home or in the messroom stood down. You also have to release union reps and staff to do the hearing, which is again a waste of resources. There are situations where it's appropriate or unavoidable, for example if there is evidence the employee has deliberately violated procedures, or if their actions were reckless or endangered safety. However I always take the view it should be the last resort, when you've considered or tried all other options.
 
Last edited:

Crossforth

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Lancashire
Just as a point of curiosity, how many of you have read through the timeline of how the event unfolded and the actions undertaken by all parties as it happened on CCTV?
 
Last edited:

martynbristow

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
426
Location
Birkenhead
Just as a point of curiosity, how many of you have read through the timeline of how the event unfolded and the actions undertaken by all parties as it happened on CCTV?

I've read all reports posted to this thread. If there is more information in the public domain then please share.
My views are based upon balanced evaluation of what was reported.
 

hounddog

Member
Joined
4 Mar 2014
Messages
276
I really don't think a sacking was a fair response to a non-incident.

Just because no-one gets hurt it doesn't mean a course of action isn't dangerous. Any action (and I'm talking generally, not specifically to this case) has to be judged on the possible outcomes and their likelihood, not just the actual outcome. You wouldn't say a drunk driver should only be punished if he injures someone.
 

Crossforth

Established Member
Joined
20 Aug 2009
Messages
1,337
Location
Lancashire
I've read all reports posted to this thread. If there is more information in the public domain then please share.
My views are based upon balanced evaluation of what was reported.

I'm not criticising, I'm merely asking. The stuff I've read is apparently internal only so I can't publicise it.
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
Bingo! :lol:



Don't look at me about what is published, I just read the stuff, I'm not a delivery boy.


Sorry, That's the answer I was trying to hint at, the original post was a bit cryptic so I wondered!

After all, it's not unheard of for "enthusiasts" to get control logs etc
 

ungreat

Member
Joined
11 Nov 2006
Messages
965
Bingo! :lol:

Don't look at me about what is published, I just read the stuff, I'm not a delivery boy.
Internal stuff shouldnt be commented on in here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think TPE have used the Gross Misconduct chestnut no less than forty times in five years, from everything ranging from Driver Spads (how is that intentional?) to booking office accounting incidents. Running joke that almost anything there carriesm the gross misconduct charge at present... Andy Warnock Smith, RMTs senior full time rep mentioned not so long ago virtually every case he sees at TPE carries at least one Gross Misconduct charge.

Either there's an exceptionally 'naughty' bunch of staff, or the people running the investigations are away with the fairies. :)

Probably the latter
 

swj99

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
766
Had the emergency brakes been applied and the idiot lost his life because he lost his grip and fell onto the track awkwardly, could it be deemed negligent on the part of the guard because he could have reasonably foreseen that following this protocol blindly could have resulted in harm in the particular set of circumstances, thereby being prosecuted by the CPS?
That's what I was thinking when I read it. Hopefully the worker will have taken legal advice about this aspect for the tribunal case against TPE.

Are all youths now to be called 'vulnerable members of the public' ?

Considering what he did, I'd say 'yob' was more appropriate.
I'd have thought fcukwit was a better word, but only for the ones who try to get killed by trains.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,072
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
That's what I was thinking when I read it. Hopefully the worker will have taken legal advice about this aspect for the tribunal case against TPE.

Thinking back to the time of death of the drunken mid-teen girl in the incident on the railway platform at Liverpool that has been cited previously on this thread, would that railway worker in Liverpool have taken and received legal advice on the same matter to with you make reference above and how would then his legal team sought to present this to the court at that time?
 

DownSouth

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
Thinking back to the time of death of the drunken mid-teen girl in the incident on the railway platform at Liverpool that has been cited previously on this thread, would that railway worker in Liverpool have taken and received legal advice on the same matter to with you make reference above and how would then his legal team sought to present this to the court at that time?
It probably would have been irrelevant, as the Liverpool one hinged upon the guard's incorrect decision to start the train.

This one is all about stopping (or not stopping) the train rather than starting it, and additionally the method of 'defending' it (term used loosely) would be rather different as it is a dispute over termination of employment instead of a criminal prosecution.
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
It probably would have been irrelevant, as the Liverpool one hinged upon the guard's incorrect decision to start the train.

This one is all about stopping (or not stopping) the train rather than starting it, and additionally the method of 'defending' it (term used loosely) would be rather different as it is a dispute over termination of employment instead of a criminal prosecution.

I would say that BOTH are about following the correct procedure as laid down by both rule book and company policy.
 

martynbristow

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
426
Location
Birkenhead
It probably would have been irrelevant, as the Liverpool one hinged upon the guard's incorrect decision to start the train.

This one is all about stopping (or not stopping) the train rather than starting it, and additionally the method of 'defending' it (term used loosely) would be rather different as it is a dispute over termination of employment instead of a criminal prosecution.

I would differ on this. A train must be started to be stopped. At James St he made a clear acknowledgment of the risk. In this incident the risk is inferred because he aborted his first attempt to dispatch. By not checking the lad was clear it could be argued he knew he was there.
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,498
By not checking the lad was clear it could be argued he knew he was there.

He was clear of the train when the Guard gave the ready to start.

The whole problem for the Guard is that he then did check again whether the lad was clear and then knew he wasn't. As he self reported the incident he presumably didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If he hadn't looked out the window (which is outside of what the rule book requires) or self reported, there'd have been no problem for anyone... TPE wouldn't have been able to stick anything on him either.
 

swj99

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2011
Messages
766
Thinking back to the time of death of the drunken mid-teen girl in the incident on the railway platform at Liverpool that has been cited previously on this thread, would that railway worker in Liverpool have taken and received legal advice on the same matter to with you make reference above and how would then his legal team sought to present this to the court at that time?

No idea. The two cases are very different, in that the person in your example died, whereas the one in the more recent case failed to die. Whether or not this was a good thing is of course a matter of opinion.
 

martynbristow

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
426
Location
Birkenhead
He was clear of the train when the Guard gave the ready to start.

The whole problem for the Guard is that he then did check again whether the lad was clear and then knew he wasn't. As he self reported the incident he presumably didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If he hadn't looked out the window (which is outside of what the rule book requires) or self reported, there'd have been no problem for anyone... TPE wouldn't have been able to stick anything on him either.

But this is where the uncertainty comes in, what is the safe dispatch criteria. Unless he could have proved he knew the kid posed no danger than it could still be argued there was a risk. The police should have been called and it just waited. Unfortunately you would get delays but no risk.
The fact he self reported it and did stop it should count for something and be encouraged.

Anyway he went outside the rule book, isn't that how it got sent down at James St, because he looked when he didn't have too. If something happened I don't know how sympathetic a jury would be.
 

wensley

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2008
Messages
2,045
Location
On a train...somewhere!
He was clear of the train when the Guard gave the ready to start.

The whole problem for the Guard is that he then did check again whether the lad was clear and then knew he wasn't. As he self reported the incident he presumably didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If he hadn't looked out the window (which is outside of what the rule book requires) or self reported, there'd have been no problem for anyone... TPE wouldn't have been able to stick anything on him either.

Rule Book - TW1 - Section 18 said:
The people responsible: driver, guard
When starting away, if it is safe and possible to do so, you must
look out to make sure everything is in order.

Not sure if that would stand up, also depends on the TOCs local instructions for dispatch. I can follow the logic of the Guard's actions, but I still don't agree with the strike - given the focus on PTI after James Street incidents like this are a real worry and I would be certain that the internal investigation was thorough in finding out the full circumstances.
 

Flamingo

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2010
Messages
6,806
But this is where the uncertainty comes in, what is the safe dispatch criteria. Unless he could have proved he knew the kid posed no danger than it could still be argued there was a risk. The police should have been called and it just waited. Unfortunately you would get delays but no risk.
The fact he self reported it and did stop it should count for something and be encouraged.

Anyway he went outside the rule book, isn't that how it got sent down at James St, because he looked when he didn't have too. If something happened I don't know how sympathetic a jury would be.

That's the point of doing it "to the book", it passes the responsibility on to whoever wrote the book. It might not be the best or most sensible way of doing it, but it's not the Guards fault when it does go wrong. Once one deviates in any way, it becomes personal responsibility.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,927
Location
Isle of Man
Anyway he went outside the rule book, isn't that how it got sent down at James St, because he looked when he didn't have too. If something happened I don't know how sympathetic a jury would be.

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Thinking back to the time of death of the drunken mid-teen girl in the incident on the railway platform at Liverpool that has been cited previously on this thread, would that railway worker in Liverpool have taken and received legal advice on the same matter to with you make reference above and how would then his legal team sought to present this to the court at that time?

McGee was convicted because the victim was actually leaning against the train before and during the despatch process. He initially tried to claim that she had moved away then rushed back and, when CCTV showed that to be untrue, tried to claim that he reasonably thought she was moving. He also tried to blame the victim for what happened because she was drunk.

The CCTV showed that the girl hadn't moved- she was leaning against the train sorting out the strap on her stiletto shoe- and that McGee should have seen her, even if he didn't.

Without seeing the CCTV we genuinely can't judge if this case is different or not. If it is exactly as the RMT report it then sacking him is harsh, but there is probably more to it than what the RMT say there is.

I guess Flamingo is probably right- if there's someone acting like a moron on the platform you leave the train stationary until they move or the BTP move them for you.
 
Last edited:

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,773
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
McGee was convicted because the victim was actually leaning against the train before and during the despatch process. He initially tried to claim that she had moved away then rushed back and, when CCTV showed that to be untrue, tried to claim that he reasonably thought she was moving. He also tried to blame the victim for what happened because she was drunk.

The CCTV showed that the girl hadn't moved- she was leaning against the train sorting out the strap on her stiletto shoe- and that McGee should have seen her, even if he didn't.

Without seeing the CCTV we genuinely can't judge if this case is different or not. If it is exactly as the RMT report it then sacking him is harsh, but there is probably more to it than what the RMT say there is.

I guess Flamingo is probably right- if there's someone acting like a moron on the platform you leave the train stationary until they move or the BTP move them for you.

The trouble is that if you don't move the train every time someone is doing something stupid, you will be sitting around an awful lot.

As a guard or DOO driver, you are always having to make decisions about whether or not it is safe to start your train. If in doubt, you err on the side of caution and don't move your train, and hopefully the situation will resolve itself before too long. You also have the risk that if you go and confront the person then you could find yourself assaulted (this has happened).

Having followed the James Street case, I'd say the issue was more that the guard was not in any doubt, based on his experience, his split-second judgement was that it *was* safe to move the train. From my own experience it is very common to get drunks and others touching the side of the train - perhaps waving to people inside, perhaps just being stupid, or perhaps trying to press the door button in the hope you'll re-open, or because they think that it they do it they'll be able to get on the train. Normally they move away as soon as they think the train is about to move, especially if a warning is shouted. I'm certain the James Street guard would have experienced this many times before, without incident, only this time things turned out different.
 

martynbristow

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
426
Location
Birkenhead
The trouble is that if you don't move the train every time someone is doing something stupid, you will be sitting around an awful lot.

As a guard or DOO driver, you are always having to make decisions about whether or not it is safe to start your train. If in doubt, you err on the side of caution and don't move your train, and hopefully the situation will resolve itself before too long. You also have the risk that if you go and confront the person then you could find yourself assaulted (this has happened).

Having followed the James Street case, I'd say the issue was more that the guard was not in any doubt, based on his experience, his split-second judgement was that it *was* safe to move the train. From my own experience it is very common to get drunks and others touching the side of the train - perhaps waving to people inside, perhaps just being stupid, or perhaps trying to press the door button in the hope you'll re-open, or because they think that it they do it they'll be able to get on the train. Normally they move away as soon as they think the train is about to move, especially if a warning is shouted. I'm certain the James Street guard would have experienced this many times before, without incident, only this time things turned out different.
Well I think the phrase used is IT rolls down hill!
always dump it on someone else. I guess in his mind he was worried about delays, booking off and that its just a regular occurrence, which it IS.
I personally feel management should share the blame, and again here, for lack of oversight, but unless you've written in a complaint there nothing to prove. Its done to wear the responsibility ultimately falls
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
14,927
Location
Isle of Man
The trouble is that if you don't move the train every time someone is doing something stupid, you will be sitting around an awful lot.

Maybe that's what it takes sometimes. I've seen the late-night vomit comets out of Euston lose 35 minutes between Euston and Hemel before now, purely because of the number of drunks messing about on the platform. I'd rather the guard wait until they've gone than see him lose his job, or worse.

I think McGee was rightly convicted of manslaughter. I think he assumed she would move. I get why he made that assumption, but when you assume something like that and you get it wrong the consequences are terrible.

As for this case, I suspect TPE have decided to make an example of a guard because the RAIB recently pulled their pants down after the incident at Newcastle where a passenger was trapped in the doors and pulled along the platform. RAIB were scathing about TPE's processes and procedures, as well as the 185 doors being of a poor design. TPE are, I'm sure, looking for someone to hang out to dry so they can show to RAIB they're taking it seriously.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
4,307
Whilst it's quite right for unions to represent their members, why do rail unions seem to default to threats of action as a response to issues such as these? If they consider that a particular dismissal was unfair, that 's what employment tribunals are there for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top