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Group Bourdon Tool
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Downloading the GBT months in advance of applying is cheating as far as I am concerned and I feel the whole recruitment process is a farce. There are many applicants now passing the tests and interviews should not be passing. 10 years ago before the test material was widely available 1 in 10 passed the tests now it is as high as 4 - 5 out of 10. Many new trainee drivers are not able to pass the training, many new trainee drivers are not able to pass the final assessments in the time given with their DI and need more hours. This never used to happen so therefore there are many passing who shouldn't be.
As for the practice material given, do they send you the CBI questions? Do they send you material out months in advance? Do they send you details on how to pass the other tests? No! The industry now is just starting to realise what is happening, SPAD's have changed now where there are more percentage of SPAD's and other operational incidents by drivers with less that 3 years experience, most is down to the farcical recruitment process, sorry if you disagree but this is fact!
I totally agree. I passed the assessment 6 years ago at the second attempt out of date now 
For the failed 1st attempt a year earlier, I got a book on these puzzle-type tests and there was a cable/dial one similar but different to the one I ended up[ failing. I failed because of that book, I'm sure of it.
Now I think if this printed off practice one on this thread is different it could either help or screw people up. But, TDK, we live in a world where you can google interview questions and answers (i.e. Q: Where do you see yourself in 5 years? A: Continuing to improve my skills for the benefit of my employer and the customer.lol)
Unfortunately if one doesn't join the cheaters, they'll get the jobs.
For the failed 1st attempt a year earlier, I got a book on these puzzle-type tests and there was a cable/dial one similar but different to the one I ended up[ failing. I failed because of that book, I'm sure of it.Now I think if this printed off practice one on this thread is different it could either help or screw people up. But, TDK, we live in a world where you can google interview questions and answers (i.e. Q: Where do you see yourself in 5 years? A: Continuing to improve my skills for the benefit of my employer and the customer.lol)
Unfortunately if one doesn't join the cheaters, they'll get the jobs.
I totally agree. I passed the assessment 6 years ago at the second attempt out of date now
Now I think if this printed off practice one on this thread is different it could either help or screw people up. But, TDK, we live in a world where you can google interview questions and answers (i.e. Q: Where do you see yourself in 5 years? A: Continuing to improve my skills for the benefit of my employer and the customer.lol)
Unfortunately if one doesn't join the cheaters, they'll get the jobs.
I agree Spider8 but it doesn't detract from the fact that there are many capable candidates not making the grade with a pass when they should due to the fact there are lesser ideal candidates "cheating" and sealing the jobs. I know the questions, practice material etc. is widely available. Now, if there were lets say "A" levels and the answers to many of the questions were available online would this be permitted?
I feel it is now time for the Railway Industry woke up to the fact by permitting candidates to be able to "cheat" is breaching the safety of the public enabling potential trainee drivers who are not equipped with the relevant natural competence through the recruitment process. How this is policed is another question but I really do feel for the candidates who are fully capable of passing tests with their natural ability being thrown in to a bottomless talent pool because others who have "cheated" got better marks in the testing process.
Many or most will disagree with me as you are avidly practicing the tests, asking for the best interview answers on this forum and also extremely desperate for the job as a train driver and will do anything to get the role, including paying for books, paying companies who "say" they can get you through etc. etc.
I am sorry but personally speaking, and I do have experience in recruiting train drivers and interviewing potential candidates but the whole recruitment process for trainee train driver jobs is a complete farce and bordering dangerous!
Ok having answers to the questions can make someone have the answers but surely someone doing the interview can catch people out if they are lying. I have already passed a CBI for a Shunters job I applied for 2 years ago so I can guess how it's going to go. Does not mean I am going to say the right words for the drivers job. I really am hoping the answers I give will be good enough to get me through. I speak to a driver who used to be a instructor, he thinks I will make a good driver. If only he was doing the interviews. I have heard of 5 people so far not getting the job I have applied for while I'm still awaiting to hear when my interview is.
The interviews are by far the most difficult part of the assessment process to pass. A good interviewer will see through candidates that are not competent enough for the job, an interviewer has a rake of training even on interview techniques and reading body language. This is a new thing as the interview, especially the managers interview used be the easy part but now you have many people passing the tests who shouldn't be there are more candidates to interview and this is the reason why it is a difficult part to pass.
There is no actual pass mark, they ask you for accuracy and consistency, the answers to you other questions are on this thread.
At the end of the day, if the tests are publicly available, people will use them to practice in order to get a job. Personally, I see it as no different to schools which teach students to "pass the exam" by walking through the question types and the typical marking schemes. Very few students would go into the exam without having revised, on the flip side, could it be said that those who haven't revised lack motivation?
I think it would clearly be cheating if a candidate was to access the exact test which was used on the day and identified targets to mark in advance.
The TOCs could put more into ensuring that the practice materials don't go public, NATS and Eurocontrol (air traffic control) put candidates through a test known as FEAST, I believe the practice materials for this are much more limited in scope. I do wonder that if the double failure restriction was removed and the six months between tests was extended to say, 2 years, people wouldn't practice quite so much. The double failure restriction is certainly the bit that makes me the most anxious.
Many of the competencies required will be developed over time, if someone has a preferential career they will try and develop their skills set to match that career. For example, many wannabe airline pilots join the local gliding club in their teens and of course wannabe classical musicians might pick a rarer instrument to increase their odds of getting into a professional orchestra. Of course these will likely improve ability in the process, whilst natural ability will have an effect I don't think it is absolute.
There will never be a perfect test, the aptitude tests can only give a reasonably accurate guide as to whom is ideal for the job. I was reading an article in an aviation magazine where someone got into the Australian air force as a pilot back in the 1950's through a family friend effectively skipping the aptitude tests. He had a very successful career and once fairly senior he tried one of the aptitude tests and failed miserably. Of course science has moved on from the '50's but the principle remains the same.
I think it would clearly be cheating if a candidate was to access the exact test which was used on the day and identified targets to mark in advance.
The TOCs could put more into ensuring that the practice materials don't go public, NATS and Eurocontrol (air traffic control) put candidates through a test known as FEAST, I believe the practice materials for this are much more limited in scope. I do wonder that if the double failure restriction was removed and the six months between tests was extended to say, 2 years, people wouldn't practice quite so much. The double failure restriction is certainly the bit that makes me the most anxious.
Many of the competencies required will be developed over time, if someone has a preferential career they will try and develop their skills set to match that career. For example, many wannabe airline pilots join the local gliding club in their teens and of course wannabe classical musicians might pick a rarer instrument to increase their odds of getting into a professional orchestra. Of course these will likely improve ability in the process, whilst natural ability will have an effect I don't think it is absolute.
There will never be a perfect test, the aptitude tests can only give a reasonably accurate guide as to whom is ideal for the job. I was reading an article in an aviation magazine where someone got into the Australian air force as a pilot back in the 1950's through a family friend effectively skipping the aptitude tests. He had a very successful career and once fairly senior he tried one of the aptitude tests and failed miserably. Of course science has moved on from the '50's but the principle remains the same.
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iaveight
Member
I dont agree at all. If someone can study and pass an exam this means they have done their research, practiced, and were able to meet the minimum requirement. If you made all the qualified train drivers do these new tests including the GBT and they failed, does this mean they should be fired? You have train simulators, what if you fail your assessment after years on the line, are you fired immediately? or are you allowed re training and another chance in the simulator?
Say 30 people apply for 15 postings and they all pass the tests on the first try with no study, who would they take? They all met the required grade, they would only take the top 15. It all depends on your competition at the time, the next group may score lower than the original 30 but some of them would be offered jobs, it is dependent on your competition at the time. Which to me makes it subjective.
These exams show that people who pass have practiced and studied and brought their skills up to a level that is acceptable and capable of being trained. Because someone is great on computer games does not mean they are able to retain all the information given in the training or they do not have the drive to succeed. I have seen in my industry many who were qualified airline pilots for many years with great employment records , change companies have to do an online test and fail and not be offered employment. Yet someone fresh out of school who has played many video games has no industry knowledge or life skills pass and be offered the job over someone with 20 years of experience with great records.
These are PRE employment tests designed to weed out people in the beginning, nothing more.
I remember one major company I applied for after passing the math english and personality questions , the next stage was a simulator assessment in a huge aircraft I had never flown. The company provided me the brief two weeks in advance so I hired a simulator for two hours in that exact airplane which was the boeing 757, we flew the procedure for two hours, does that make me a cheater? or does that make me someone who has prepared? Of all the guys that passed in my course and were offered employment I asked them how many downloaded flight simulator and paid for 2 hours in the real simulator they all said yes, we didnt cheat we were prepared, and all went on to have a great career.......
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Just had a bash at it.
Group-Bourdon Result Statistics
Saved on 25/02/2015 at 17:41:35
-------------------------------
Overall Statistics:
-------------------
Perception & Attention:
Targets Omitted ------------ None
Marked Incorrect ----------- None
Speed:
Total Cells ---------------- 1185
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.321
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.270
Completed Rows ------------- 46
Mean Row Time -------------- 8.035
Median Row Time ------------ 8.085
Group-Bourdon Result Statistics
Saved on 25/02/2015 at 17:41:35
-------------------------------
Overall Statistics:
-------------------
Perception & Attention:
Targets Omitted ------------ None
Marked Incorrect ----------- None
Speed:
Total Cells ---------------- 1185
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.321
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.270
Completed Rows ------------- 46
Mean Row Time -------------- 8.035
Median Row Time ------------ 8.085
One thing I thought I'd mention with the GBT and SCAAT practice examples I've seen is that if the clock runs out on a sheet when a target is highlighted but not marked, that target is recorded as "omitted" in the results despite the fact that the candidate may well have intended to mark it. I would say that this is the case on more than half of the omissions I have at the moment.
So, if the real thing is computer-based, do you need to be a bit tactical as to where you end each sheet to avoid omissions which are effectively false?
So, if the real thing is computer-based, do you need to be a bit tactical as to where you end each sheet to avoid omissions which are effectively false?
It's not an exam is an assessment on a persons ability to become a safe train driver and is totally different, exams in the sense you are describing are generally memory and cannot be compared. The assessments are put in place to assess an applicants natural ability and not their memory.
If a driver has multiple incidents and is not suitable for the role even after 20 years they can be fired so there is no need to get them to repass the assessments.
In my experience I have never known a 100% pass rate in 15 years, if there are more passes than positions then it is down to interview, location, past experience and also related experience that is in line with the role.
The railway industry is totally separate and different for the airline business and cannot be compared
These are assessments to determine whether a candidate has the relevant natural abilities and the mental attitude to be able to be successful in the role of a train driver, the interviews are what determines who get the job.
There is a fundamental difference from using a simulator for 2 hours than private messaging someone and believe me I get many on what the questions and answers are for interviews, what the answers are for other assessments, this is cheating, downloading an assessment that is supposed to measure your ability to concentrate to practice it to pass is cheating, OK, so some people will do this and you add to their portfolio that they are good at gathering information on the PC but that is all. You cannot compare the airline industry assessments with the railway ones as they are totally different. Sorry if you do not agree with me but practicing the GB test before hand is in my opinion certainly cheating.
Treadstone
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- 20 Feb 2015
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- 58
im guessing this is much easier on a bigger screen destop than on a smaller laptop like I use, there doesnt appear to be an option to increase the window size, will see if my scores improve on a bigger desktop machine.
How small are the patterns on the paper based actual tests, is it simply 5 sheets of A4?
How small are the patterns on the paper based actual tests, is it simply 5 sheets of A4?
letmedrive
Member
- Joined
- 11 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 30
You look like you might be wearing your rose tinted specs too much TDK. In my experience there are plenty of drivers recruited in 'the good old days' with a list of incidents as long as your arm to their name. In the modern world if you apply for any worthwhile job or career you will be expected to have done your research and preparation to stand a chance there is no reason I can see for the railway to be any different. Those that are totally unsuitable probably won't get through whatever they do so lighten up a little ! Also the really well suited or clever ones that don't do the research and preparation well maybe they wouldn't be prepared to do the work on the course either. You mentioned A levels, well guess what? All the info is on the internet. Top sports people 'cheat' all the time by practising as well. Need I go on ? It's the 21st century, things change.
I have my interview soon, I wish I knew what the were going to ask me so I could 'cheat'. I hate interviews and have only had 2 proper interviews in my life. Most jobs I have had were just ' start Monday' interviews. Been working on the railway already for nearly half my life and still dreading it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One question I do have is can you use same answer for two questions?? Like a pressure situation and emergency as both are kind of linked???
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One question I do have is can you use same answer for two questions?? Like a pressure situation and emergency as both are kind of linked???
iaveight
Member
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WCMLaddict
Member
- Joined
- 20 Mar 2012
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- 417
Now, I disagree with TDK on many things and I personally think he should get off his high horse when criticising current rail industry recruitment processes and accuse people of cheating their way through, but I fully agree with the red bit.
You're getting worked up about something that he has not said.
iaveight
Member
Not worked up at all, just a discussion and my views,
If you both say its so different tell me how..... I have flown many years and I see many similarities in the two jobs. The main difference is one is in the air one is on the ground. We mainly work as multi crew drivers as single.
With regards too pre employment assessments , trainee train driver has more than aviation that's for sure, unless you are looking at being a cadet for BA then they are comparable in many ways....
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The railways cheat too! When doing my two-yearly PTS re-cert the examiner reads out all the upcoming test questions one by one, anyone says the answer, then we go for a coffee, then we come in and do the test. We all pass of course - having just heard all the questions and answers one would have to be a right muppet to fail. Most get 100%.
If one fails, the employer has to pay to put you on a full two-day course rather than another re-cert! It's pathetic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should add that, of course, the test result is supposed to be representation of our wider, all-round knowledge. It isn't.
If one fails, the employer has to pay to put you on a full two-day course rather than another re-cert! It's pathetic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should add that, of course, the test result is supposed to be representation of our wider, all-round knowledge. It isn't.
DunfordBridge
Member
Please tell me you are joking! I got 100% when I renewed my PRS certificate on the Wensleydale recently but I was not forewarned about the test questions.
Not only am I NOT joking, a colleague of mine collaborated with the PTS guy to answer just enough questions to fail. The hope was he would have to do it again with, perhaps, the opportunity of getting off a couple of nightshifts. Our manager actually wanted to discipline him for failing. But there was nothing the manager could do about it. My colleague just had to do it again after an informal telling off and an informal warning.
DunfordBridge
Member
Not good, not good at all!
I was referring to the recruitment process not the physical flying or driving. (directed at others) I am not on a high horse I am just airing my views, many more candidates are failing the interviews than ever before, the DM interview used to be a formality, when I took mine 15 years ago I had already had my medical and had a job offer.
By candidates practicing the tests is giving a false result for the companies employing you. I keep seeing I did bad at interview on here on many occasions, how many of these practised the tests? Most probably.
A good friend on mine wanted to be a pilot, his father paid out for him to have private lessons to gain his private pilots licence, he then applied to be a pilot and got the job, totally different from applying for a train drivers job!
Curcelli
Member
- Joined
- 9 Mar 2015
- Messages
- 8
Need abit of help on the GBT Bourdon test.
How do I know what dots to mark? I press space and it goes straight to the test but doesn't say what I should be marking?
How do I know what dots to mark? I press space and it goes straight to the test but doesn't say what I should be marking?
you need to do the groups of 4 dots.
Hi guys,
Does anybody know if Northern use Scaat or GBT for trainee conductor? And do they use paper or computer?
Below is my first real attempt at Scaat, I'm guessing based on previous threads the moral for me is slow down and reduce the no. omitted?
Overall Statistics:
-------------------
Perception & Attention:
Targets Omitted ------------ 12
Marked Incorrect ----------- None
Speed:
Total Cells ---------------- 1735
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.197
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.130
Completed Rows ------------- 65
Mean Row Time -------------- 4.933
Median Row Time ------------ 4.630
Vigilance:
Row Fluctuation ------------ 5.96
---------------------------------------------
Does anybody know if Northern use Scaat or GBT for trainee conductor? And do they use paper or computer?
Below is my first real attempt at Scaat, I'm guessing based on previous threads the moral for me is slow down and reduce the no. omitted?
Overall Statistics:
-------------------
Perception & Attention:
Targets Omitted ------------ 12
Marked Incorrect ----------- None
Speed:
Total Cells ---------------- 1735
Mean Cell Time ------------- 0.197
Median Cell Time ----------- 0.130
Completed Rows ------------- 65
Mean Row Time -------------- 4.933
Median Row Time ------------ 4.630
Vigilance:
Row Fluctuation ------------ 5.96
---------------------------------------------
beavercreek
Member
- Joined
- 18 Nov 2011
- Messages
- 187
Slow right down as 12 mistakes is a fail.
Have you not read the advice that you need accuracy and consistency? You want to aim for no omissions or mistakes even if you start with only completing 3 lines a page and then increase to the point when you start making mistakes and sit at that point. These days any mistakes could mean a fail.
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