GW to be electrified

[Railway]

http://rail-news.com/2010/11/19/great-western-to-be-electrified/

 

[anthony263]

thats good news, now will the wag pay for the wires to swansea?

 

[LexyBoy]

I give it six months before it's shelved indefinitely, if it is officially announced in the first place.

Great if it does happen though! I assume Bristol and Oxford would be wired too. Wonder what's the chances for the Golden Valley as a South Wales diversionary :-P

 

[Aictos]

Bad news for the MML then if it's confirmed that the electrification proposal for the MML has been cancelled.

A coalition source said that recent improvements to the MML route meant that electrification was no longer a priority.

What improvements?

Surely if anything, the MML ought to have had the line from Bedford to Sheffield via Derby electrified together with Kettering to Sileby via Corby which would offer a diversionary route avoiding Leicester and then have the line from Sheffield to Doncaster, Sheffield to to East Midlands Parkway via Nottingham and Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate electrified which would mean East Midland Trains could run though services between Sheffield and London by using either the Nottingham or Derby route.

Also means that the the Corby services could transfer to the Thameslink franchise by means of extending some Bedford services and XC services would be able to use the wires from Edinburgh/Glasgow all the way to Sheffield before using diesel power to continue.

However it is good that the Manchester to Liverpool route is being wired up, just require London Midland to keep their 350s and not cascade any to TPE with TPE instead going for a AC version of the 444 for their Manchester to Edinburgh services and the existing 185s being used to bolster their other services.

It is also good that the GWML is being electrified but I don't agree with the MML being cancelled to permit the GWML to be done, I can see the GWML being done from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads via Bath Spa and to Bristol Parkway via Didcot being done first as well as the line between both Parkway and Temple Meads being done before the line to Plymouth and Cardiff, if Swansea will be done I believe it will be down to the WAG to provide funding for Cardiff to Swansea.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I thought this was old news? Could have sworn it had already been officially announced, doubt it'll ever happen though, not in it's entirety anyway

 

[asylumxl]

Politics. All trying to win votes.

 

[Oswyntail]

Politics. All trying to win votes.

Perhaps a tad cynical. The timing of this announcement - if the report turns out to be accurate - seems unrelated to any election campaign. In fact, if there is delay resulting in future cancellation, that is more than likely to come in the next General Election period. So I suspect that this is a genuine programme. Whether this is the right programme will, of course, keep this board in posts for a good few years yet.

 

[asylumxl]

Perhaps a tad cynical. The timing of this announcement - if the report turns out to be accurate - seems unrelated to any election campaign. In fact, if there is delay resulting in future cancellation, that is more than likely to come in the next General Election period. So I suspect that this is a genuine programme. Whether this is the right programme will, of course, keep this board in posts for a good few years yet.

Didn't they have it reviewed, and cost to benefit ratios showed that the MML was vastly better an option? So why would you choose GWML unless there was another motive?

 

[sprinterguy]

What improvements?

The route enhancements to allow longer stretches of 125mph running, or 110mph where that's not possible, is what it's principally referring to, plus there's also the MMLs' not-quite-total-HST-replacement fleet of Meridians.

 

[PhilipW]

Some slightly unjustified cynical remarks above, I rather feel.

Yes, the GWR electrification was announced by Labour in July 2009. On taking office the new government said that it would review the scheme again in light of the country's economic situation. Fair enough, I think I would have done exactly the same.

Now it appears that they are to give the scheme the go-ahead. Let's not mince words, this is excellent news, especially compared to all the doom-and-gloom we were expecting from the spending review.

If the scheme is trimmed back to end wiring at Cardiff instead of Swansea, that would be a pity. However Electrification will have reached Wales. The Welsh Assembly should take this as an opportunity, not a setback. Let them take the lead in advocating for its extension to Swansea and the electrification of some of the Valley lines that they also want to do. It will be some years before the wires reach Cardiff so they have plenty of time to advocate their case. Act like Scotland, be positive. Yes, they can also put some money into the pot to pay for it.

All in all, good news. Very good news

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't they have it reviewed, and cost to benefit ratios showed that the MML was vastly better an option? So why would you choose GWML unless there was another motive?

If the point is to have electrification coincide with a major fleet renewal, the GW presumably allows for more HSTs to be retired than doing the MML first, and also provides part of the cascade for retired Thameslink 319s.

It's also possible that although no work has been done on the ground, the surveying and design work has all been targeted at the GW by NR since the original announcement. They may not be in a position to start the MML so quickly.

IMHO Rail News are wrong in one sense. Although there has been all sorts of debate about possibly doing the MML before the GW, nothing has ever been formally announced by DfT as far as I can see, and NR have not stopped preparatory work on the GW, certainly according to posts elsewhere from people working on it.

 

[philjo]

Yes, good news.
One of the elements of this scheme as originally announced by Lord Adonis was that the 319s would be used on the Thames valley commuter services once the new Thameslink stock was delivered so it would presumably mean an announcement on that will be forthcoming at the same time.
There will probably be a delay to the original timetable considering that the original class 319 cascade date was based on an order for the new Thameslink placed in Spring 2010 that obviously never happened. Until that is delivered, no 319s available for cascade.

There is probably a political element as well as others have suggested considering that all 60 seats in the Welsh Assembly are up for re-election in May 2011.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is this a syndication of the story from Bob Crowes Morning Star?

 

[Solaris]

Bad news for the MML then if it's confirmed that the electrification proposal for the MML has been cancelled.

A coalition source said that recent improvements to the MML route meant that electrification was no longer a priority.

What improvements?

Surely if anything, the MML ought to have had the line from Bedford to Sheffield via Derby electrified together with Kettering to Sileby via Corby which would offer a diversionary route avoiding Leicester and then have the line from Sheffield to Doncaster, Sheffield to to East Midlands Parkway via Nottingham and Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate electrified which would mean East Midland Trains could run though services between Sheffield and London by using either the Nottingham or Derby route.

Also means that the the Corby services could transfer to the Thameslink franchise by means of extending some Bedford services and XC services would be able to use the wires from Edinburgh/Glasgow all the way to Sheffield before using diesel power to continue.

However it is good that the Manchester to Liverpool route is being wired up, just require London Midland to keep their 350s and not cascade any to TPE with TPE instead going for a AC version of the 444 for their Manchester to Edinburgh services and the existing 185s being used to bolster their other services.

It is also good that the GWML is being electrified but I don't agree with the MML being cancelled to permit the GWML to be done, I can see the GWML being done from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads via Bath Spa and to Bristol Parkway via Didcot being done first as well as the line between both Parkway and Temple Meads being done before the line to Plymouth and Cardiff, if Swansea will be done I believe it will be down to the WAG to provide funding for Cardiff to Swansea.

Rail infrastructure is not devolved and not an area WAG can act. If it is devolved, then a ££ transfer needs to be included in the WAG block grant from Westminster. Scotland secured a £380M transfer when rail was devolved in 2005

 

[WatcherZero]

Transport isnt devolved in Wales, though WAG is a co-signatory of its franchise.

 

[43021HST]

http://rail-news.com/2010/11/19/great-western-to-be-electrified/

I really dont know what to believe any more regarding the 'electrification' of the GWML, its a tricky thing to electrify.

 

[Oswyntail]

I really dont know what to believe any more regarding the 'electrification' of the GWML, its a tricky thing to electrify.

Care to explain? Or are we into the "too many bridges and steep gradients" of another thread on the subject?

 

[curly42]

I too would be interested in why the G.W. main line would be "a tricky thing to electrify".

Engineers have carried out preliminary surveys, ( including the Severn Tunnel ) and say there will be no major problems.
Maybe you have other information that you can share with us - what about the (proposed) electrification of Bromsgrove,any problems there ?

 

[RichW1]

The route enhancements to allow longer stretches of 125mph running, or 110mph where that's not possible, is what it's principally referring to, plus there's also the MMLs' not-quite-total-HST-replacement fleet of Meridians.

Are there stretches of 125mph running on the MML yet? If so do you know where/how much of it has the opportunity?

 

[Kneedown]

The route enhancements to allow longer stretches of 125mph running, or 110mph where that's not possible, is what it's principally referring to, plus there's also the MMLs' not-quite-total-HST-replacement fleet of Meridians.

I've not been able to find anything official on the areas that will actually be upgraded to 125mph, but as far as i'm aware it's only going to be 20 or so miles south of Bedford. Hardly a major improvement! The GWML already has far more 125 sections than this.

I'll wait until the official announcement before coming to any judgements, but if it is as reported, then it's completely the wrong decision, as it was when Adonis announced it, and will condemn the East Midlands area to being a sort of third world within Britain.
Case study after case study has shown that the MML has a much stronger business case for electrification, the most recent stating that it would be more expensive NOT to electrify.
I can only say that i feel the decision will have been made politically. A lot of Tory and Lib-Dem voters down there, although i Believe Cleggy's a Sheffield MP? Perhaps he could do something useful for once and sort his Dft out!

 

[WatcherZero]

Hes apparantly been spending his largesse on his wifes lawfirm which has recived dozens of huge government contracts since the election.

Was said during the Sheffield Forgemasters thing that Clegg seems to have a thing against showing favourtism to his constintuency, going out of his was to ill favour it in reality.

MML may be the most cost effective upgrade but I believe GWML has far higher social benefit for people being unique East-West and not one of three North-South routes. Using this line to visit my Grandfathers care home near Bridgend has nothing to do with it either :P

 

[Zoe]

Had the MML been electrified it could have gone over to almost exclusively electrifc traction. This will not be the case with the GWML as many services will still require diesels.

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst it is East-West, it is not "across the country"- it is like one of the those (four) north-south intercity mainlines in that it radiates from London.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've not been able to find anything official on the areas that will actually be upgraded to 125mph, but as far as i'm aware it's only going to be 20 or so miles south of Bedford.

If it's the 'St Pancras - Sheffield linespeed improvements' shown in Section 20 (page 137-9) of the CP4 enhancements plan, there's a lot more to it than that. I guess there's a hint in the name of the project, but it's hardly started as far as the text in the CP4 plan indicates. Unfortunatley the table on p 138 works in mileages, not place names, so it isn't that easy to use.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/StrategicBusinessPlan/Delivery%20Plan/2010/Enhancements%20Document%20September%202010%20update.pdf

 

[LE Greys]

Won't the Severn Tunnel be a bit of a problem? It gets very damp down there, and the clearances aren't all that good. Elsewhere, the fact that the line is a World Heritage Site might make it a bit difficult to replace some of the overbridges with limited clearance.

Oh yes, and I hope they use gantries for the four-track sections rather than headspans.

 

[swt_passenger]

Won't the Severn Tunnel be a bit of a problem? It gets very damp down there, and the clearances aren't all that good. Elsewhere, the fact that the line is a World Heritage Site might make it a bit difficult to replace some of the overbridges with limited clearance.

There are no problems with the Severn Tunnel, especially not with the headroom. NR reported electrification of the tunnel as a non-issue to the Transport Select Commitee a couple of years ago, when they were discussing South Wales transport policy.

Furthermore, it most certainly is NOT a world heritage site, although an application has apparently been made, however NR have strongly objected - and I'd agree with them on that...

 

[WatcherZero]

Hammond Thursday:

"No decision on IEP has been made yet. The review of the revised Hitachi bid has been more complicated to examine than we first thought and we have had to draft in extra resources to evaluate it. We are talking WEEKS not Months before we announce a way forward."

So if they have decided on the GWML electrification they havent decided on what stocks going to be working it.

 

[TGV]

I really dont know what to believe any more regarding the 'electrification' of the GWML, its a tricky thing to electrify.

Only for those looking for an excuse not to do it. There's nothing on the GWML that hasn't been electrified elsewhere.

 

[Old Timer]

Oh yes, and I hope they use gantries for the four-track sections rather than headspans.

Heaspans are no longer used.

All new electrification uses lineside cantilever arrangements where possible, and gantries where there are multiple tracks and reduced clearances.

 

[43021HST]

Only for those looking for an excuse not to do it. There's nothing on the GWML that hasn't been electrified elsewhere.

Its not anything like bridges or tunnels, I'm talking about the network itself, if you electrify it as far as cardiff, the trains to swansea will still be diesel hauled, also the trains to cornwall will also be diesel. the stopping services from Paddington to Bedwyn will still be diesel, so the rouglhly only 40% of the services uing the GWML will be electric. Get my point, I thought that was a no brainer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are no problems with the Severn Tunnel, especially not with the headroom. NR reported electrification of the tunnel as a non-issue to the Transport Select Commitee a couple of years ago, when they were discussing South Wales transport policy.

Furthermore, it most certainly is NOT a world heritage site, although an application has apparently been made, however NR have strongly objected - and I'd agree with them on that...

Why do you agree with NR then? Important point to bring up you wont really be making the line 'greener' because we still be burning fossil fuels to create the power and you may need to modify existing or build new power stations to supply the extra power. It may cut the emmissions a bit but in the long run how beneficial is it?