GWR Penalty Fare - few questions/ wrong details, wrong fare (?)/

[J.S.]

Hi,

It's my first thread on this forum so I'm sorry in advance if I ask about completely obvious matters.

This Sunday (08.04) I was traveling from London Paddington to Reading (with GWR) and got a Penalty Fare issued as I was unable to show a valid ticket for my journey.
I simply lost the ticket, which I realized after boarding the train. I was able to board the train without going through the gates as it departed from a platform that actually doesn't have gates.

I've read threads on this forum and other forums and I do realize I will need to pay the PF as I don't have any grounds for appeal but my own words. I'm willing to do so.

Nevertheless, after doing a research some questions have risen and I hope you will be able to answer them.

I'll start by saying that the Collector was really nice. He asked for some sort of ID and told me I cannot buy a ticket with him as he is not a Conductor and doesn't have a portable ticket machine and he also cannot allow me to buy a ticket at the gates in Reading (which are closed all the time, so you won't get through without a ticket). He also said I cannot pay the PF on the spot. He told me that his job is to check if passengers have valid tickets and issue PFs if they don't. In all fairness, I didn't know there's a difference. I've never seen or came across such an Inspector/Collector, only the Conductors that were selling me the tickets on board if needed.
Fair enough. I couldn't provide a ticket when asked for it so I'll pay. However, he pointed at least 3 times I can appeal and he wished me good luck with it (no sarcasm nor irony included) and that made me really curious.

I've started to read about the appeals and whoa I got bit freaked out and conscious and that led me to widen my research, which led to the following questions:

1. Is the fare amount correct?
I was charged with £48.80. The PF Notice claims the penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare to the next station stop (whichever is greater). The single ticket from Ldn Paddington to Reading on Sunday costs £20.20 (making it twice gives £40.40). Moreover, the train was stopping in Slough - does it make any difference for the calculation?

2. The Notice states the wrong date! Does it make the Notice invalid?
The situation took place on 8th of April and Notice states it took place on 10th of April, which is tmr. Shall I do anything about it? Does it make the notice invalid? If that's a ground for appeal? Was it issued with a later day (Tuesday) to charge me with 'anytime travel' fare, not "off-pick" fare?

3. If the wrong date is a ground for appeal, what should I do?
Shall I pay PF first and then appeal to avoid rising the costs? When is the administration fee of £20(some sources say £30) charged? I know I have to pay a single fare, but if on top of that I have to pay £20 in question it simply doesn't look worth all the hassle and from what I've seen on forums such appeal is quite a hassle and most of the cases ends up paying even more then initial amount.

4. How long my details would be kept by the company?
The information part of the PF Notice says my details will be kept on file for further reference. Does anyone know how long they can/ will keep it? If I appeal and "win" will the details be crossed out? I assume that if I pay PF now I will be noted as a person who evaded paying on purpose, but maybe if I appeal I won't be seen as such a person? Does the appeal matter how a person is seen by a company?

5.What is the Permit the travel machine?
The Notice states that if the ticket office is closed and the self-service ticket machine is not available one should purchase a permit to travel from the permit to travel machine, insert the max amount of coins one has and the pay any difference in fare within 2h.

6. When one gets an entry in the criminal record.
To my understanding, if I pay the PF within 21 days there would be no trail and no prosecution ergo no entry to the criminal record (in case I was convicted).

But there's something that bothers me here. The Notice says the repeated receivers of PF Notice may be prosecuted for deliberate evasion. What does it mean exactly? If I happen to get another PF in the future does it mean I will straight away get summoned to court or does it only happen when a person (hypothetically) gets PF multiple times (more than a couple)? In my understanding, such prosecution will end up with an entry to the criminal record(?). I've read such an entry gets crossed out from the criminal record after 5 years (?), which is quite long time ...

This part of notice freaks me out and I'll tell you why. Please don't judge me, but I have a nasty habit of putting stuff in my pockets and so I've lost my bank cards, Oyster cards, receipts etc numerous times. I know, that's pretty reckless but well, we all have some flaws ...

The other thing is that every now and then I start my journey in Aldermaston, which is a tiny station with no ticket office nor ticket machine, so whenever I travel to London, and there is no Conductor selling tickets on the train (which is usually the case on weekends, when I travel), I'm buying my ticket at the Paddington station (the office before the gates). It has never been an issue. However, now I'm scared that if I lose a ticket, leave it t home or will travel from Aldermaston, basically if I ever again happen to "be unable to show a valid ticket for my journey" AND I'll come across another Collecter, which will result in getting another PF I may and up in court and in criminal record


I know I asked a lot of questions and I'll very much appreciate answers to at least some of them. Thank you for taking your time and reading this treat and thank you in advance for any replies.

 

[Clip]

1-He charged you the correct amount as it is the full anytime single fare which is doubled - not the discounted off peak single.
2-The date is an administration error and was not used to try and charge you more(see above) you still committed and agree that you committed the offence
3- I would pay the PF and not appeal.
4- Couldnt say how long they will keep your details for but it may be a while.
5- The Permit to travel machine is not relevant here unless you can say for sure that every ticket machine and ticket office was closed at Paddington
6- Pay the PF and all they will do is keep your name and address for a certain amount of time and no further action. Should this happen again then they may go for prosecution so make sure you dont.


Pay the PF - chalk it up to experience and then forget about it and dont do it again. I cant see any grounds for a successful appeal as you have committed and agree to committing the offence.

 

[Clip]

Oops for the last part if you travel from a station without ticket issuing facilities then you can buy on board or at the end of your journey with no penalty for doing so. BUT try not to do this if you havent got on there because as well as being dishonest you will also not know if they were doing a revenue block at that time and you could then land yourself in a whole load of trouble which could lead to a conviction for you.

Play it by the book and you shouldnt come to any more bother on the railway

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,

It's my first thread on this forum so I'm sorry in advance if I ask about completely obvious matters.

This Sunday (08.04) I was traveling from London Paddington to Reading (with GWR) and got a Penalty Fare issued as I was unable to show a valid ticket for my journey.
I simply lost the ticket, which I realized after boarding the train. I was able to board the train without going through the gates as it departed from a platform that actually doesn't have gates.

I've read threads on this forum and other forums and I do realize I will need to pay the PF as I don't have any grounds for appeal but my own words. I'm willing to do so.

Nevertheless, after doing a research some questions have risen and I hope you will be able to answer them.

I'll start by saying that the Collector was really nice. He asked for some sort of ID and told me I cannot buy a ticket with him as he is not a Conductor and doesn't have a portable ticket machine and he also cannot allow me to buy a ticket at the gates in Reading (which are closed all the time, so you won't get through without a ticket). He also said I cannot pay the PF on the spot. He told me that his job is to check if passengers have valid tickets and issue PFs if they don't. In all fairness, I didn't know there's a difference. I've never seen or came across such an Inspector/Collector, only the Conductors that were selling me the tickets on board if needed.
Fair enough. I couldn't provide a ticket when asked for it so I'll pay. However, he pointed at least 3 times I can appeal and he wished me good luck with it (no sarcasm nor irony included) and that made me really curious.

I've started to read about the appeals and whoa I got bit freaked out and conscious and that led me to widen my research, which led to the following questions:

1. Is the fare amount correct?
I was charged with £48.80. The PF Notice claims the penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare to the next station stop (whichever is greater). The single ticket from Ldn Paddington to Reading on Sunday costs £20.20 (making it twice gives £40.40). Moreover, the train was stopping in Slough - does it make any difference for the calculation?

2. The Notice states the wrong date! Does it make the Notice invalid?
The situation took place on 8th of April and Notice states it took place on 10th of April, which is tmr. Shall I do anything about it? Does it make the notice invalid? If that's a ground for appeal? Was it issued with a later day (Tuesday) to charge me with 'anytime travel' fare, not "off-pick" fare?

3. If the wrong date is a ground for appeal, what should I do?
Shall I pay PF first and then appeal to avoid rising the costs? When is the administration fee of £20(some sources say £30) charged? I know I have to pay a single fare, but if on top of that I have to pay £20 in question it simply doesn't look worth all the hassle and from what I've seen on forums such appeal is quite a hassle and most of the cases ends up paying even more then initial amount.

4. How long my details would be kept by the company?
The information part of the PF Notice says my details will be kept on file for further reference. Does anyone know how long they can/ will keep it? If I appeal and "win" will the details be crossed out? I assume that if I pay PF now I will be noted as a person who evaded paying on purpose, but maybe if I appeal I won't be seen as such a person? Does the appeal matter how a person is seen by a company?

5.What is the Permit the travel machine?
The Notice states that if the ticket office is closed and the self-service ticket machine is not available one should purchase a permit to travel from the permit to travel machine, insert the max amount of coins one has and the pay any difference in fare within 2h.

6. When one gets an entry in the criminal record.
To my understanding, if I pay the PF within 21 days there would be no trail and no prosecution ergo no entry to the criminal record (in case I was convicted).

But there's something that bothers me here. The Notice says the repeated receivers of PF Notice may be prosecuted for deliberate evasion. What does it mean exactly? If I happen to get another PF in the future does it mean I will straight away get summoned to court or does it only happen when a person (hypothetically) gets PF multiple times (more than a couple)? In my understanding, such prosecution will end up with an entry to the criminal record(?). I've read such an entry gets crossed out from the criminal record after 5 years (?), which is quite long time ...

This part of notice freaks me out and I'll tell you why. Please don't judge me, but I have a nasty habit of putting stuff in my pockets and so I've lost my bank cards, Oyster cards, receipts etc numerous times. I know, that's pretty reckless but well, we all have some flaws ...

The other thing is that every now and then I start my journey in Aldermaston, which is a tiny station with no ticket office nor ticket machine, so whenever I travel to London, and there is no Conductor selling tickets on the train (which is usually the case on weekends, when I travel), I'm buying my ticket at the Paddington station (the office before the gates). It has never been an issue. However, now I'm scared that if I lose a ticket, leave it t home or will travel from Aldermaston, basically if I ever again happen to "be unable to show a valid ticket for my journey" AND I'll come across another Collecter, which will result in getting another PF I may and up in court and in criminal record


I know I asked a lot of questions and I'll very much appreciate answers to at least some of them. Thank you for taking your time and reading this treat and thank you in advance for any replies.

I can provide a possible answer to the question of the amount. The single Anytime fare from Paddington to Reading is £24.40 so the usual 2× would make the £48.80 you've got.

Now, as I understand it (and I may well be wrong), PFs are supposed to be the higher of £20 or 2× the undiscounted single fare to the next station the train calls at. If you want to go further than that then you should be separately sold another ticket from the next station to wherever you're going. So technically it seems possible you should have been issued with a PF of £20 - as twice the single fare to Slough would be £19.20, and then you should have been sold a ticket from Slough to Reading or told to leave at Slough.

Whether or not this has any impact on the validity of the PF I couldn't say, but it does seem to be a little different to the usual procedure as I've read about it.

 

[Clip]

I can provide a possible answer to the question of the amount. The single Anytime fare from Paddington to Reading is £24.40 so the usual 2× would make the £48.80 you've got.

Now, as I understand it (and I may well be wrong), PFs are supposed to be the higher of £20 or 2× the undiscounted single fare to the next station the train calls at. If you want to go further than that then you should be separately sold another ticket from the next station to wherever you're going. So technically it seems possible you should have been issued with a PF of £20 - as twice the single fare to Slough would be £19.20, and then you should have been sold a ticket from Slough to Reading or told to leave at Slough.

Whether or not this has any impact on the validity of the PF I couldn't say, but it does seem to be a little different to the usual procedure as I've read about it.

This Slough business all depends on if the train actually stopped there or not.

 

[Hadders]

It depends on where the PF was issued. If it was before the call at Slough then the PF would be £20 plus I believe the price of an Anytime Single from Slough to Reading (£9.30), unless the OP decided to leave the train at Slough.

If the PF was issued after the call at Slough then £48.80 would be correct.

 

[J.S.]

First of all, thank you very much for all the answers.

Second thing is, you wrote:

if you travel from a station without ticket issuing facilities then you can buy on board or at the end of your journey with no penalty for doing so.

That was my understanding until now. But if there's a Collector on a train, and I don't have a ticket (cuz I've boarded the train on a station without ticketing facilities and didn't buy one on board as no one was selling them), all that matters for the Collector is lack of ticket, nothing else and that causes issuing PF. At least that's how I see it now after the explanation I got on Sunday and reading bunch of threads.

 

[Clip]

First of all, thank you very much for all the answers.

Second thing is, you wrote:


That was my understanding until now. But if there's a Collector on a train, and I don't have a ticket (cuz I've boarded the train on a station without ticketing facilities and didn't buy one on board as no one was selling them), all that matters for the Collector is lack of ticket, nothing else and that causes issuing PF. At least that's how I see it now after the explanation I got on Sunday and reading bunch of threads.

An RPI shouldnt PF you for boarding st a station that doesnt have ticket issuing facilities. If they do then you should appeal it right away.

 

[najaB]

But if there's a Collector on a train, and I don't have a ticket (cuz I've boarded the train on a station without ticketing facilities and didn't buy one on board as no one was selling them), all that matters for the Collector is lack of ticket, nothing else and that causes issuing PF.

That's not correct. You *cannot* be issued a PF if you board at a station without facilities (not even a PERTIS) and you have no other opportunity to purchase before encountering the authorised person.

 

[Hadders]

First of all, thank you very much for all the answers.

Second thing is, you wrote:


That was my understanding until now. But if there's a Collector on a train, and I don't have a ticket (cuz I've boarded the train on a station without ticketing facilities and didn't buy one on board as no one was selling them), all that matters for the Collector is lack of ticket, nothing else and that causes issuing PF. At least that's how I see it now after the explanation I got on Sunday and reading bunch of threads.

Ticket facilities are available at Paddington. There's a ticket office that (without checking) I'm sure would've been open plus lots of ticket vending machines.

 

[J.S.]

An RPI shouldnt PF you for boarding st a station that doesnt have ticket issuing facilities. If they do then you should appeal it right away.

That's not correct. You *cannot* be issued a PF if you board at a station without facilities (not even a PERTIS) and you have no other opportunity to purchase before encountering the authorised person.

Thank you for clarifying that.
Some of the trains from Aldermaston to Ldn are direct (very rarely but there are few), according to the above in such case I'm on a safe side and have nothing to worry about. However, the vast majority of times I go to Paddington I have to change in Reading. My question is: if I have to change in Reading am I on the safe side as well and can buy my ticket at the end of the journey (Paddy) or the fact I'm changing there makes a difference?

 

[J.S.]

Ticket facilities are available at Paddington. There's a ticket office that (without checking) I'm sure would've been open plus lots of ticket vending machines.

I was referring to a situation "what happens if one boards the train on a station without ticket issuing facilities", like Aldermaston or Migham, not a massive station like Paddington

 

[furlong]

So please confirm - did this happen before the train stopped at Slough?

(You ought also to have been allowed to pay in full immediately - that could also be followed up separately later with the train company and the Department for Transport.)

 

[J.S.]

So please confirm - did this happen before the train stopped at Slough?

(You ought also to have been allowed to pay in full immediately - that could also be followed up separately later with the train company and the Department for Transport.)

I was asked if I have a ticket when the train was approaching Slough, the whole situation with a Collector happened when the train was at the Slough station and continued as the train moved towards Reading (it took ages as he checked the address I gave him in some sort phone app, and couldn't find it. He needed to put it again and again and it worked for the third time). It was not my intention to fool him so I straight away said that my destination is Reading.

I asked him if I shall pay straight away, and he said I don't have to, pointed the part of the notice saying how and where to pay and how to appeal.

 

[furlong]

So there might be a bit of a grey area there - my guess (I have no references for this and other people might disagree) would be what counts is whether or not the train was preparing to leave Slough station before or after the point in time at which you were informed you were to be charged a Penalty Fare. In other words, whether or not you still had the option of leaving the train at Slough (an Authorised Collector would probably have accompanied you if you did) after you were informed you would be subject to the penalty.

 

[furlong]

Also, which platform was it at Paddington and what was your route through the station? Do you remember seeing a warning notice before boarding the train? I've seen some prominent Penalty Fares warning notices at the station, but maybe the route you used didn't have any.

 

[Clip]

Also, which platform was it at Paddington and what was your route through the station? Do you remember seeing a warning notice before boarding the train? I've seen some prominent Penalty Fares warning notices at the station, but maybe the route you used didn't have any.

Platforms 1,8 &9 are unbarriered and from memory they have posters at the entrances to the platforms informing people of penalty fares.

From the OPs account it seems the train was moving when the PF got issued so seems fine for the PF to be the reading fare to me

 

[MikeWh]

From the OPs account it seems the train was moving when the PF got issued so seems fine for the PF to be the reading fare to me

Yes and no. It sounds as though the issuing of the PF took place after checks on name/address. Should the collector have offered the opportunity to allight at Slough first in order to minimise the penalty. Only the OP will know how much of the conversation had happened before the train was ready to leave Slough. My personal inclination would be to pay the penalty and then write to customer services explaining the situation and requesting that they refund the difference.

 

[J.S.]

Platforms 1,8 &9 are unbarriered and from memory they have posters at the entrances to the platforms informing people of penalty fares.

The train departed from platform 9. I haven't seen the signs as I was running from the Bakerloo Line direction (I believe the signs are there. I've seen them at other stations, the black letters, yellow background ones I believe). Actually, I was planning to get another train, the faster "direct to Reading train", due earlier than the one I've actually taken. But by the time I've reached the departures board the primary train wasn't there anymore, but the "platform 9 train" was there, due to leave in 3 minutes (the trains were 5 minutes apart). So I just had a quick glance at the board and run towards it as it was already "boarding and ready to leave". Simple as that. I know for a fact plenty of trains that day were canceled due to the shortage of staff (drivers especially) and I had to go back to Reading for an appointment so I took the first train available. If the train departed from a platform with gates I would have probably missed it, as I would have realized I lost the ticket at the gates, would have backed up from the gates to go through my backpack and then being annoyed at myself would have bought another ticket and would have taken a later train. I had a return ticket which I purchased and used on my way to London, so as any other person I just assumed I still have it with me.

Yes and no. It sounds as though the issuing of the PF took place after checks on name/address. Should the collector have offered the opportunity to allight at Slough first in order to minimise the penalty. Only the OP will know how much of the conversation had happened before the train was ready to leave Slough. My personal inclination would be to pay the penalty and then write to customer services explaining the situation and requesting that they refund the difference.

The Collector started to write down the Notice after he checked the address I gave him. But to be honest I'm not able to say if he informed me about the fact I have to pay a penalty after the train departed from Slough or when the train was still at the station. I know for sure he didn't offer the opportunity to alight at Slough to minimize the penalty. Probably because I said I'm going to Reading and didn't show any intent of leaving in Slough. Even though he was really nice I was really distressed and embarrassed (quiet carriage, all the people looking at me), especially after he said that he cannot find the address I gave him and asked if I'm sure it's a correct one. So I really didn't pay much attention to surroundings. The only reason I know I was approaching Slough is because I looked at my watch to check the time when the train manager (or driver?) informed that we are approaching Slough, and a couple of minutes later I was asked to show the ticket.

I'll do as you advise and pay the penalty and then ask for a refund of the difference. Will see how it goes

The funny thing is that according to the Notice, the penalty hasn't been issued yet. As it states it's issued later today ...

 

[J.S.]

The reason I thought about the appeal was that I thought it might make a difference with regard to my record. I mean, that if the appeal got through, that maybe instead of being considered a dodger in GWR records, I would get a note that I appealed or so ... I really don't know how this mysterious company record works. I'm just really frightened that if it ever happens again I'll get a court summon straight away and that will result in criminal record entry. That's why I was wondering how long the details are being kept etc. I've read loads of threads about people getting summoned and agreeing to pay some big money to avoid court.

I know the best advice is to make sure it won't happen again, but what if ...

I wanted to base the appeal on the fact that I paid for the ticket with my card, and it's stated in my bank account. Apparently, people tried it and companies don't consider that as a valid proof for appeal.

After all your answers (which I'm very much thankful for) I can see the only option is paying the fare and maybe trying to get a partial refund.

 

[J.S.]

Thank you for clarifying that.
Some of the trains from Aldermaston to Ldn are direct (very rarely but there are few), according to the above in such case I'm on a safe side and have nothing to worry about. However, the vast majority of times I go to Paddington I have to change in Reading. My question is: if I have to change in Reading am I on the safe side as well and can buy my ticket at the end of the journey (Paddy) or the fact I'm changing there makes a difference?

The last thing. Would you please answer that question? I would really appreciate that.

 

[najaB]

I mean, that if the appeal got through, that maybe instead of being considered a dodger in GWR records, I would get a note that I appealed or so...

If they thought you were deliberately trying to avoid paying they would be prosecuting, rather than issuing a Penalty Fare.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The reason I thought about the appeal was that I thought it might make a difference with regard to my record. I mean, that if the appeal got through, that maybe instead of being considered a dodger in GWR records, I would get a note that I appealed or so ... I really don't know how this mysterious company record works. I'm just really frightened that if it ever happens again I'll get a court summon straight away and that will result in criminal record entry. That's why I was wondering how long the details are being kept etc. I've read loads of threads about people getting summoned and agreeing to pay some big money to avoid court.

I know the best advice is to make sure it won't happen again, but what if ...

I wanted to base the appeal on the fact that I paid for the ticket with my card, and it's stated in my bank account. Apparently, people tried it and companies don't consider that as a valid proof for appeal.

After all your answers (which I'm very much thankful for) I can see the only option is paying the fare and maybe trying to get a partial refund.

Does anyone have a picture of the Penalty Fare posters on those platforms? The new Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 came into effect on the 6th of April, so 2 days before your Penalty Fare. There is a strict requirement there to have specified wording on the PF poster for it to be valid - for example, it must include the specific wording: "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare" (Paragraph 1(1)(c) of Part 1 of Schedule 1 of the Regulations). I have seen numerous posters which do not say this - they say things like "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare" (which is subtly different and so not valid).

Note that any failure to comply with the requirements of the regulations merely means that any such Penalty Fares cannot be enforced at County Court. It doesn't mean that they couldn't drop the PF and prosecute you for this first 'offence'.

 

[J.S.]

Does anyone have a picture of the Penalty Fare posters on those platforms? The new Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 came into effect on the 6th of April, so 2 days before your Penalty Fare..

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Penalty Fares Guidelines 2018.pdf found that. Dropping the link in case someone would like to have a look.

 

[island]

If you like living dangerously you could ensure you have a watertight alibi evidencing you were somewhere other than a train at the corresponding time on today’s date that the Penalty Fare was issued, and then present that evidence when the prosecution follows.

 

[Clip]

Does anyone have a picture of the Penalty Fare posters on those platforms? The new Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 came into effect on the 6th of April, so 2 days before your Penalty Fare. There is a strict requirement there to have specified wording on the PF poster for it to be valid - for example, it must include the specific wording: "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare" (Paragraph 1(1)(c) of Part 1 of Schedule 1 of the Regulations). I have seen numerous posters which do not say this - they say things like "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare" (which is subtly different and so not valid).

Note that any failure to comply with the requirements of the regulations merely means that any such Penalty Fares cannot be enforced at County Court. It doesn't mean that they couldn't drop the PF and prosecute you for this first 'offence'.

I certainly dont think is a form of a valid defence - the wording is different by only 1 word and most if not all fare evasion cases are heard in a magistrates not in the county court and i dont think Penalty Fares are heard in a court at all - they can now be appealed by an independent panel i do believe.

Hopefully @DaveNewcastle can clarify this should he see this post - though lets face it the OP didnt have a ticket to present when asked and as such the PF is applicable - im unsure why anyone would try and say differently nor try to find an eeror where there may not be one in order to let the OP off his PF.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I certainly dont think is a form of a valid defence - the wording is different by only 1 word and most if not all fare evasion cases are heard in a magistrates not in the county court and i dont think Penalty Fares are heard in a court at all - they can now be appealed by an independent panel i do believe.

Hopefully @DaveNewcastle can clarify this should he see this post - though lets face it the OP didnt have a ticket to present when asked and as such the PF is applicable - im unsure why anyone would try and say differently nor try to find an eeror where there may not be one in order to let the OP off his PF.

What I am saying is that a PF scheme and any resultant PFs are all invalid if they do not comply with the required wording. The Regulations do not say that the notices should convey in any chosen terms the message that a Penalty Fare may be charged - it specifies specific wording. A difference of three words, as it is in the case of most of the PF signage I see in my area, may be a minor difference but it is nevertheless not acceptable. Passengers can and do get prosecuted for getting a ticket to a station a few stops earlier than their destination, even when this does not result in any difference to the fare paid. So TOCs cannot be let off either.

 

[Clip]

What I am saying is that a PF scheme and any resultant PFs are all invalid if they do not comply with the required wording. The Regulations do not say that the notices should convey in any chosen terms the message that a Penalty Fare may be charged - it specifies specific wording. A difference of three words, as it is in the case of most of the PF signage I see in my area, may be a minor difference but it is nevertheless not acceptable. Passengers can and do get prosecuted for getting a ticket to a station a few stops earlier than their destination, even when this does not result in any difference to the fare paid. So TOCs cannot be let off either.

Ok then - go for it. Try it out for yourself - its something i say to many members of this forum when they make such bold claims but as yet i have not had anyone take up the offer - i mean they would if they were so adamant that they were correct wouldnt they?

I await your thread on this matter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . There is a strict requirement there to have specified wording on the PF poster for it to be valid . . . .
. . . . any failure to comply with the requirements of the regulations merely means that any such Penalty Fares cannot be enforced at County Court. It doesn't mean that they couldn't drop the PF and prosecute you for this first 'offence'.

I certainly dont think is a form of a valid defence - the wording is different by only 1 word and most if not all fare evasion cases are heard in a magistrates not in the county court and i dont think Penalty Fares are heard in a court at all - they can now be appealed by an independent panel i do believe.

Hopefully @DaveNewcastle can clarify this should he see this post - though lets face it the OP didnt have a ticket to present when asked and as such the PF is applicable - im unsure why anyone would try and say differently nor try to find an eeror where there may not be one in order to let the OP off his PF.

[I do read most of these threads, but don't post as often as there are now so many more people regularly posting their poorly-informed personal opinions on here rather than those assisting with facts. This question is a good example - many of the regular posters adopt a competitive approach, in which finding a defect in with the Railway Company scores as a benefit to the passenger which can be offset against a defect with the passenger's travel. It's a natural human response (e.g. when arguing, to challenge with "but you said . . . . "). But it doesn't assist people looking for assistance in making informed decisions.]

I'll look at the points which really are at issue here, and based on what I have understood from the reports of J.S., will give my view on each of them, in descending order of weight.
The first point is whether the passenger had a valid ticket for travel in circumstances when they could have bought one. It appears that they did not. A fare remains unpaid.
Second, whether the Inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare in response to ticketless travel. It appears from J.S. that he was.
Thirdly, whether the incorrect date on the PF notice is grounds for its rejection. It is possible that a pragmatic resolution would be to reject it, but I am not persuaded that it must do so. But if so, the fare remains unpaid and the potential to pursue a Conviction or a recovery remains.
Fourthly, whether the precision of the notices at a station is a material consideration of weight in challenging the Penalty Fare. It is not. The prospects of this being used as a counter-argument, and then succeeding in engaging the substantial points at issue such that they fall away, are negligible.
Fifthly, the question of the point of issue (the 'Slough question'). I'm not able to offer an opinion on this. But this is also a counter-argument, and must be considered as secondary to the substantial points. They do not fall away.

I agree that it beggars belief that anyone, even a mis-informed person, would find any likely benefit in disputing this matter in a County Court. There is a potential outcome for J.S. which involves an unpaid debt collectable by Bailiffs instructed by a County Court, but it is inconceivable that anyone would be advised that this would be a position to reach which has a beneficial outcome.

This summarises my assessment of these points perfectly :

. . . the OP didnt have a ticket to present when asked and as such the PF is applicable . . . .

Hope this helps.

 

[furlong]

Second, whether the Inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare in response to ticketless travel. It appears from J.S. that he was.

That depends whether the company has adhered to the rules of its scheme. If the company's signage was not compliant at Paddington, then I doubt that he was correct.

Thirdly, whether the incorrect date on the PF notice is grounds for its rejection

I think that could form grounds for an appeal but I wouldn't like to suggest whether or not such an appeal might be upheld in respect of this particular TOC's scheme, as I haven't found an explicit requirement here for the notice to contain the correct date.

Fourthly, whether the precision of the notices at a station is a material consideration of weight in challenging the Penalty Fare. It is not.

There I'm inclined to disagree - the Statutory Instrument doesn't seem to leave much room for deviation.

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
...
(b) the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;
...
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of
Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

Fifthly, the question of the point of issue (the 'Slough question'). I'm not able to offer an opinion on this.

Given the answers to the questions on this thread, I doubt an appeal on these grounds would be worthwhile.